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What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39016
08/22/04 04:05 PM
08/22/04 04:05 PM
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As requested I have created a new topic on some of the things that Muslims believe where we can look at their beliefs in relation to Christian beliefs, etc.
A question asked by Cedric in the JW topic relative to this newly created topic is: How does one reconcile the Christian understanding of One God (Jehovah) with the Muslim understanding of One God (Allah)?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39017
08/22/04 11:44 PM
08/22/04 11:44 PM
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To put it another way we could say Are they the same God?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39018
08/23/04 12:22 AM
08/23/04 12:22 AM
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Are they the same God?
I think we need to know more about their understanding of who the One God (Allah) is in comparision to our understanding of who the One God (Jehovah) is before we can correctly answer that question.
The Bible gives God many names all referring to the One God (Jehovah), however, I don't recall the One God (Jehovah) also being referred to as Allah in the Bible.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39019
08/23/04 01:03 AM
08/23/04 01:03 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
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Last week i just finished a 8 month study of this very subject: "Is Allah and God the same"? Anyone interested in the results of the study can see it here: Qur'an Bible Comparison
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39020
08/23/04 01:50 PM
08/23/04 01:50 PM
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Cedric,
The link danielw provided at a quick glance seems to be a good link, therefore, I think your question(s) will probably be answered there.
Feel free to discuss your findings there in this topic as it relates to this topic. As time permits, I will try and do the same thing.
I also invite danielw to discuss it here as well as it relates to this topic.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39021
08/24/04 03:45 AM
08/24/04 03:45 AM
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Another place we could look for Muslim beliefs and how they relate to Christian beliefs is in the book Studying Together by Mark Finley. It lists the beliefs we have in common as well as differing beliefs. It suggests ways to approach Muslims and how to work up to a Bible study with them.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39022
08/25/04 06:20 AM
08/25/04 06:20 AM
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Daryl, I came here to change my password as requested. My this place seems quite interesting. I heard that Jesus and Allah are the same God. Where the trouble arises is in Mohammed. He was a false prophet and was responsible for all the hatred against Jews and Christians. Because of his writings in the Koran extreme hatred is instilled in many Muslim's minds. They believe that eventually they must kill all Jews and Christians or get them to convert to Islam. They do not require sincerity in this conversion process - because if they say they are Muslim and will follow Islam - then all of their children will be raised Muslim. And then the entire world will be Muslim. The strange thing pointed out by Sam Bacchiocchi is that they worship the Virgin Mary, but not Jesus. There are many Marian apparitions happening world wide. This apparition can hear and respond to the audience, and is asking to be declared co-redemptrix with Jesus. This is directly in contradiction with the Bible. Many people are urging the Pope to officially declair Mary as Co-redemptrix. When this happens I believe that the end of the world will be extremely close. So God will not influence the Pope to do this until the time is ripe for the infamous Sunday laws. (Forget about "blue laws" - they have nothing to do with the real Sunday law.) Bacchiocchi pointed out that Mary could well be the unifying force to bring about world unity. Its strange that Mary is in the Koran and also in Eastern religions like Buddhism and other eastern religions and Native Americans with their largely new age beliefs. And here we SDAs always wondered how religions like Islam could ever be united so the world will have one religion and political rule for the Beast of Revelation to rule over - as the Bible says. --Ðøug  ™ 2004.8.24.23.22.11 PT
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39023
08/25/04 12:45 PM
08/25/04 12:45 PM
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Actually Jews and Christians are the two groups that are exempt from the convert or die instructions. Mohamed recognized them as people of the book. Jews and Christians could maintain their beliefs but had to pay extra taxes and couldn't prosylatize muslims.
I agree that it is spiritualism, virgin mary, etc. that will bring muslims into endtime Babylon.
Pastor Mike
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39024
08/26/04 03:02 AM
08/26/04 03:02 AM
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I don't think we can rightly say that Jesus and Allah are the same God....
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39025
09/06/04 03:32 AM
09/06/04 03:32 AM
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John, your three dots indicate that perhaps you have more to say on this topic. I would like to hear it, since to just say "Uh, I don't think they're the same." offers no reasons for the thinking process.
I have to agree with Daryl on this topic in that unless we know the characteristics of both entities, we are probably not in a position to answer that question.
And is that even the first question we should be asking?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39026
09/05/04 05:56 PM
09/05/04 05:56 PM
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Any religion that doesn't acknowledge the deity of Jesus Christ doesn't worship the true God. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." -- 2 John 1:9
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:..."
-- 1 John 2:23 Islam doesn't acknowledge that Jesus is God; it says that He was merely a mortal human prophet. So Allah, the god of Islam, can't possibly be the true God. Islam denies the Son, so it "hath not God."
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39027
09/05/04 11:36 PM
09/05/04 11:36 PM
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Yes...But...Is it remotely possible that perhaps God has revealed himself to other cultures and people groups in ways he has not revealed himself to us? Just a thought.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39028
09/05/04 11:41 PM
09/05/04 11:41 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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I live in a muslim country, so I have learned a few things regarding this ploy.
Those is the keystone verses, John and no amout of blabber by ecumunical muslim writers can sway that. This spin has intensified for those muslims living in Western countries post 9/11. (It's human to want to lessen your offensiveness when you live in a nation of non-muslim "unbelievers"!)
One needs to understand that muslims have been missionaries in N.America and Europe for 3o years or more, and have learned what to say in order to blur distinctions.
The "All is One." hook fools those with no relationship with Christ, or those with a suberfical understanding of how deep that can be. Muslims see God as "Unknowable, distant and Unapproachable." And yet their traditions tell of Jesus making clay bird models to come alive! A Creator that is not God; isn't that mere trickery? There are many "holy stunts" in their traditions for Mohammed, giving credence that "prophets" have special rules, and don't need to ollow the Commandments.
No, muslims do not know Christ as He is, therefore the Father is a Mystery to them.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39029
09/06/04 12:41 AM
09/06/04 12:41 AM
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I dare say that, from that response, neither does the poster.
Despite the rhetoric, the question was not answered.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39030
09/06/04 04:47 AM
09/06/04 04:47 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Which one of the six of us are you addressing, "Cedric"?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39031
09/07/04 12:03 AM
09/07/04 12:03 AM
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Well, "Ikan", it just seems that it should go without saying that on a "Christian" forum the "Love of Christ" should shine forth in the responces posted.
But let's get back to the question at hand...
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39032
09/07/04 01:12 AM
09/07/04 01:12 AM
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Yes, the love of Christ should shine forth in all of our responses.
And yes, let's get back to the topic at hand and stop judging other's responses.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39033
09/07/04 04:17 AM
09/07/04 04:17 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Thank you Daryl!
Pointing out what muslims misunderstand is not cruelty, but loving concern. If one thought that poison was water, would you debate cooly with the hand about to lift it to the lips, or boldly shout "Whoa, friend! You're making a deadly mistake!"???
The question, IMHO, is does misconceptions of Islamists about Isa (Jesus) create a false impression of His Father? Can God be understood without His only Son? "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." takes on new meanung.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39034
09/07/04 04:36 AM
09/07/04 04:36 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Perhaps a peek at the Koran (Qu'ran) might help clarify what Islam teaches about Christ:
('Sura' = Chapter, 'People of the Scripture'= Christians)
Sura 4
Verse 157 "And because of their (Jews and pagan Romans) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
Sura 5
51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise.
73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God.
75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
Sura 9
31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
If one studies Islamic history, it becomes known that Islam was only exposed to Catholic/Coptic semi pagan "christendom", not authentic and tiny faithful christianity as much. Observe the references to Mary and monks above.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39035
09/07/04 04:45 AM
09/07/04 04:45 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Yes, there are any things in the Koran that are taken from the Old Testament, primarily, and a few tidbits from the traditional Catholic/Orthodox understandings of the New Testament in 7th century. Muslim scholars assembled the Koran over many years (it was not "revealed" in one lump to Mohammed, as muslim scholars will admit that parts were found many years after his death and "restored")based on wrong concepts observed in false and worldy christendom.
But I may be off base: Is this topic about anti-trinitarianism, comparing Jewish and Muslim scholarly concepts to each other?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39036
09/07/04 04:46 AM
09/07/04 04:46 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Let me declare frankly here:
I would rather be in the company of a faithful muslim anyday than a false or bigotted christian. And I know plenty of good muslims. It's their wrong concepts of heavenly matters that is askew, not their manners, oftentimes.
Yet good morals do not indicate correct relationships with God. The social morals often can hide a black heart.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39037
09/11/04 06:57 PM
09/11/04 06:57 PM
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Although the cut and paste from the Qur'an was interesting, could you possibly explain it in the context of this discussion, for those of us who are yet so slow.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39038
09/11/04 08:25 PM
09/11/04 08:25 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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The cut and paste is self explanatory, and I also read in it that Jesus is not the Son of God..Very plain.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39039
09/12/04 02:44 PM
09/12/04 02:44 PM
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Yes, that part was very clear, but make your point in your own words for those of us that are yet so dull.
Sura 6:1 also says "All Praise be to GOD the One who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light..."
Sura 6:2 "GOD is the One Who fashioned you from clay..."
Sura 6:3 "And He is GOD in the heavens and the earth, He knows your secrets..."
So here we have three attributes of Allah:
1) He is the Creator of heaven and earth and made the light.
2) He created man.
3) He knows our thoughts.
There are many others I have not listed. (There are also significant differences)
Please do not understand this as an attack on the Christian God or the Islamic Allah. It is neither. But it is a search for truth, answers, and understanding. If possible, address the question without the vitriolic rhetoric.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39040
09/12/04 04:55 PM
09/12/04 04:55 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. WHoever denies Christ as being the Son of God is well..antichrist. That is very plain and clear. However if you do not have faith in what the Word of God says then of course these things will be foolish to you.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39041
09/13/04 02:04 AM
09/13/04 02:04 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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And to even think that they are doing people the favor of asking you to expand and explain for the slow and dulll yet use words to sounds all high and mighty, but will not do the same. interesting, but I suppose some need that type of attenshun.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39042
09/13/04 03:42 AM
09/13/04 03:42 AM
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So far, the only really progressive response, (the resident Muslim scholar not withstanding) was Daryl's when he said that we do not know enough about their belief system to answer the question with any accuracy.
Nor, do I believe, can we, since if we understood the one postion perfectly, we could not understand the other to the same degree of perfection.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39043
09/13/04 03:42 AM
09/13/04 03:42 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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If one performs religious rituals, like haj, mandatory memorized and automatic prayers daily, jihad and required circumcision of young boys and girls, is this belief or is this force?
Is death decrees on muslim converts to christianity (of any form) human force or Allah's All-loving Kindness?
========
Edited as it responded to now two deleted posts that were totally of a sparring nature that doesn't affect the integrity of this topic. - Daryl
[ September 14, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39044
09/13/04 03:52 AM
09/13/04 03:52 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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Yes, Cedric, Daryl did say that many do not know enough about Islam and it's concepts about God and Allah. For most Westerners this is true.
Conversly muslims ignorance about authentic Protestant christianity is just as abysmal.
I am trying to share what I know. You seem not to want to discuss anything, read the Koranic references or Biblical ones either.
I do live in a muslim country.
Do you?
I have studied Islam,with muslims, for 35 years. Have you?
I have discussed the topics with imams, and shakhs. Have you?
This by no means make me anything but a student. However this student is attentive enough to know certain argumentive detours, which will not be taken.
Here is a tidbit from the "martyr", Shaheed Ayatollah Dr. Beheshti, writer of the book, "ISLAMIC CODE OF BEHAIVIOUR." available from the Islamic Propagation Organization , The Islamic Center of Hamburg.
"The Koran warns us against considering angels and apostles as God's offspring. They are His bondsmen, though admittedly eminent among them. But by no means may they be considered as His children. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Hud, Saleh, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Shoaib, Moses Joshua, Enoch, John, Jesus, Mohammad, and the other apostles are like us in so far as they are men and God's servants. He has created them as He has created others. Should those who say that Jesus is God's son mean that God is a father as we are to our children, then their characterisation of Him is improper.
God is elevated above such immature fancies. On the other hand, if they mean something different they should use a different notion to express it, rather than the misleading term "Son of God" "
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39045
09/14/04 03:18 AM
09/14/04 03:18 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
Perhaps a peek at the Koran (Qu'ran) might help clarify what Islam teaches about Christ:
('Sura' = Chapter, 'People of the Scripture'= Christians)
Sura 4
Verse 157 "And because of their (Jews and pagan Romans) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
Sura 5
51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise.
73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God.
75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
Sura 9
31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
If one studies Islamic history, it becomes known that Islam was only exposed to Catholic/Coptic semi pagan "christendom", not authentic and tiny faithful christianity as much. Observe the references to Mary and monks above.
Thank you Ikan for posting this from the KKoran (Qu'ran). This is very plain that they are worshipping a false God when they deny Jesus Christ as the Son of God. When you mix truth with error it is like saying you can drink a "little poison" with your kool-ade and it will not hurt you. In love we should show people where they are in error and point them to Jesus Christ as their only Saviour.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39046
09/13/04 11:08 PM
09/13/04 11:08 PM
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Cedric: please answer the three questions in my last post.
=========
Post edited as the last remarks were not condusive to this topic. - Daryl
[ September 14, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39047
09/14/04 02:20 AM
09/14/04 02:20 AM
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Please ignore the above post as I inadvertantly hit "Add Reply" sooner than I intended. quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
Cedric: please answer the three questions in my last post.
Sorry, Ikan, you're not calling the shots here. Neither am I.
In the opening of this thread I asked a legitimate question. Now, this question may be old stuff to you, having lived in a "Muslim country" (which country that would be we are not told) 35 years, but consider the fact that some people may yet be pondering it.
Responses such as:
"I have learned a few things regarding this ploy"
"blabber by ecumunical muslim writers"
"This spin"
"to lessen your offensiveness "
"The "All is One." hook fools those with no relationship with Christ"
"a false or bigotted christian"
"muslim "scholars" "
have not gone a long way to point the way to a loving Christ.
(The first part edited out to conform to the editing out of a previous post - Daryl).....I am more interested in Truth than "Adventism", a knowledge of God than of "Ellen White". If this offends anyone forgive me.
*******Removed as it isn't condusive to a good and c lean topic - Daryl *******
P.S. In regards to your three questions, the answer is "Yes" to all of them.
[ September 14, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39048
09/14/04 07:10 AM
09/14/04 07:10 AM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
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Your comment about Ellen White is sad and shows you know very little about her and what she taught and its relation to the Bible. When having evangelistic meetings "every" drop of what we believe is taught straight from the Bible, not Ellen White. She always uplifted the Bible and said, "This is the book we are to learn from". She agrees with that wonderful book and taught "from it" always. It is the Bible that we take our teaching from. So I would take it that you really don't know as much about us as you may feel you do. That said, I will also say that we are happy that you show some interest in learning or at least discussing. But if you are looking for more than Adventism I don't know where you are going to go. There is no other Church that teaches straight from the Bible. Even the Catholic Church admits that. The comment they made to the Protestants was: "If you were to follow the Bible only as you say you do, you would be Seventh-day Adventists". ![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif) By Study of His love letter to us (the Bible) mankind learns!
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39049
09/15/04 12:15 AM
09/15/04 12:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Heading Home:
Your comment about Ellen White is sad and shows you know very little about her and what she taught and its relation to the Bible.
I know more about EGW than your comment would indicate. The difference is that I tend to be an
independent thinker and subscribe to the theory that it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth, not EGW. Now relax, everyone, I'm not saying anything against her, just that I tend not to quote her much.
HH, have you read ALL her works, cover to cover? Including all 9 volumes of the Testimonies? Just curious, perhaps you have. It is a question many people can answer in the affirmative.
=======
Edited out Heading Home's quote that wasn't commented to by Cedric. - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
[ September 15, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39050
09/15/04 12:46 AM
09/15/04 12:46 AM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
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I agree with you about the Holy Spirit. However the Holy Spirit was in Ellen White tremendously. Her advise to us is from God. And even though her advise is wonderful... the solid back ground is the Bible. She agrees with it cover to cover.
I once read a book written by a non-SDA about Prophets. His point was to find who (according to the Bible) was a real Prophet and who was not. He went through several self-accclaimed prophets and showed how they did not messure up. When he came to Ellen White (who was not self-acclaimed) he showed step by step how she experienced "every point" the Bible listed. Just like the Prophets in the Bible. That was quite a write-up for a non-Adventist and it was right on.
The point is that God has given, through all the ages, those who were searching, someone who could help them. He does not leave us to our own understanding. I recall the story of Phillip when he talked with the man riding and asked him what he was reading. The man said Isaiah. And Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading and the man said, "How can I unless someone teach me". God loves us very much, so much that He not only gave us the Bible but He sends us teachers/Prophets that are willing to be used by Him so He can speak through them.
The Prophets we can trust are those who speak the truth, those who go through all the Bible says a true prophet will, and those who follow God's Word. Ellen White passes the test all the way.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39051
09/15/04 06:57 AM
09/15/04 06:57 AM
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Posts: 1,664
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I think we should focus more on what muslims do that is called "believing", since that is the topic and leave Ellen White out of it for now. Or open another topic on her.
Again, I would like to as Cedric if he can or will or might or care to address these questions:
If one performs religious rituals, like haj, mandatory memorized and automatic prayers daily, jihad and required circumcision of young boys and girls, is this belief or is this force?
Is death decrees on muslim converts to christianity (of any form) human force or Allah's All-loving Kindness?
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39052
09/22/04 02:37 AM
09/22/04 02:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
I think we should focus more on what muslims do that is called "believing", since that is the topic and leave Ellen White out of it for now. Or open another topic on her.
Although I will agree on leaving EGW out for now, the topic is actually "What do Muslims believe" and not "what [do] Muslims do that is called believing". Living in a Muslim country as you do you will know that they hold their beliefs very strongly. This thread is not intended to judge those beliefs, only to state what they are.
quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
Again, I would like to as Cedric if he can or will or might or care to address these questions:
If one performs religious rituals, like haj, mandatory memorized and automatic prayers daily, jihad and required circumcision of young boys and girls, is this belief or is this force?
Is death decrees on muslim converts to christianity (of any form) human force or Allah's All-loving Kindness?
The answer to that question depends entirely on your point of view. We could apply any one of those concepts to Christianity. If you accept Islam, you accept the requirements; if you accept Christianity, you accept the requirements.
What I view as a response of love to God, my kids see as forced attendance. What I see as an act of remembrance, several friends see as pointless ritual.
It's all in the point of view.
=======
Reformatted as well as a spelling correction - Daryl
[ September 22, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39053
09/29/04 10:59 PM
09/29/04 10:59 PM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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This page has a lot of stuff about what Muslims believe: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/islam.htm#difference I thought it might help in your discussion. I just went to www.google.com a minute ago and typed in "What do Muslims believe" and that was one of the first pages that came up, and it seemed to have lots of categories to read. Claudia
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39054
09/30/04 04:15 AM
09/30/04 04:15 AM
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Cedric states:
"We could apply any one of those concepts to Christianity."
Please go ahead and attempt applying holy war, killing of the apostates, circumcision of girls and boys, mandatory & memorized prayers, mandatory pilgrimages, etc. to Protestantism in general and Adventism in particular, Cedric.
After all, since this is an Adventist forum, and we will not defend Catholic Crusader insanity, I wish to see how you can lump us in with Muslim and Catholic beliefs amd practices . Therefore we need not point out the errors of Catholics, whose "viewpoints" have forced other's "viewpoints" by bloodshed.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39055
09/30/04 10:46 AM
09/30/04 10:46 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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Cedric
Your "politically correct" idea of "not judging" the beliefs of Muslims is just the reason why that false religion is growing by leaps and bounds in the United States now.
We are told to judge things "by their fruits".
You can see where the beliefs lead to. We are there fighting the results of these things in another country while "growing" it here. I havent read this whole thread but if you are saying we aren't supposed to judge what they believe in the way I think you mean it, well... that is why unsuspecting persons get involved in these types of things in the first place.
I have a couple of graphics websites and just a couple of days ago a lady who wanted to use some of my graphics was telling me she was a Christian but recently became Islamic. You'd BETTER judge it... thats why we have the Bible, as a guide to tell the difference between right and wrong. It is okay to judge something as being wrong.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39056
10/03/04 02:40 PM
10/03/04 02:40 PM
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Ikan, you confuse the underlying concept with the outward expression of such, and it is completely unwarranted to remove Catholicism from a discussion of Christianity and limiting comments to "Protestantism in general and Adventism in particular". This only tilts the playing field in your favor, ignoring historical facts and theological dogma which is a vital part of the discussion. It's like saying "What is 12, and don't tell me it is 6 + 6, or 3 x 4."
True, the Adventist church has not engaged in any of the above mentioned activities, but then they have only been around since the mid 19th century. Give them time. (This is not a slam against Adventism, just a lucid recognition that the SDA church is made up of humans.)
Notwithstanding, we digress.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39057
10/04/04 03:06 AM
10/04/04 03:06 AM
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Claudia
Like Ikan, you have missed the point. (And when did "not judging" become "politically correct" and when did you flip-flop on the issue? Whatever happened to "judge not"?)
There are two errors here:
1. The inability to stay on topic and actually address the question raised. The topic is actually "What are some of the things that Muslims believe" If one would like to judge those beliefs another topic can be started (But not by me; I'm not a member.) However, I sense that since we don't know what Muslims believe, we pick one difference and hammer it to death. This does not surprise me, since from the postings on the topic of "What must one believe to be called a Christian", We don't really know that answer, either. Oh, yes, one must BELIEVE. But believe what, exactly?
2. The second error is the tendency to compare what "I" teach with what "you" do. (This is not a personal attack) Christianity teaches thus; Muslims do so-and-so. In any fair discussion (there's that nasty little concept again, Ikan) one must compare teachings with teachings, doing with doing. Secondly, in terms of the doing, are these doings the direct result of commands or teachings of the group. We can, and often do, compare what Christianity teaches with what some Muslims do. And Muslims can, and often do, compare what Islam teaches with what some Christians do.
Since none of us actually do what the teachings say, the only real comparison is doctrine with doctrine, and this thread is attempting to find out (evidently unsuccessfully) what Islamic doctrine is.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39058
10/04/04 02:12 AM
10/04/04 02:12 AM
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One difference between true Christianity (not Catholicism) and all other religions, including Islam, is that Christianity is based on the attempt on God's part to reach sinful man. All other religions consist in man's attempt to reach God.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39059
10/04/04 07:49 AM
10/04/04 07:49 AM
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The 5 Pillars of Faith of Islam are:
1.Testimony that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Messenger
2. The performance of prayers correctly
3.Payment of Zakit
4,Fasting month of Ramadan
5.Pilgrimage to the House (Makka) for him who can find a way thither
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39060
10/04/04 10:09 AM
10/04/04 10:09 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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I thought that an answer from a unashamed Muslim of openess and honesty was overdue on this subject of Muslims beliefs , so I went to my good friend and nextdoor neighbour, Haji.
We discussed from the book "The Rites of Hajj and Umra and The Visit To Al Madina", printed and approved for pilgrims who speak English by The Academy of Islam Research in Mecca and His Royal Highness, the King of Saudi Arabia.
Haji, wishes to let me write for him that the posts under his name by me above are the Pillars of belief of all Muslims, as any 12 year old muslim boy or girl well knows.
He has full knowledge that I am posting for him on a christian forum, and asks that i come to him for any further questions.
So now we have a genuine Muslim, one who is glad to say "I am a Muslim".
I have great respect for him and his family.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39061
10/05/04 07:49 PM
10/05/04 07:49 PM
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It is good to hear their beliefs from a person who is one. The site Claudia provided should also be of good assistance.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39062
10/09/04 11:41 PM
10/09/04 11:41 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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Yes, that's true, Daryl. Nothing clears the clouds like honest answers from candid men.
Any qustions about Haji's statement of what the Muslim's core beliefs are?
(An interesting footnote: The lay-out of mosques, one central dome and 4 towers or minarets, is synbolic of these 5 tenants of faith.)
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39063
10/11/04 02:29 PM
10/11/04 02:29 PM
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Posts: 1,664
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Definitions:
"Zakit" is a type of tithe, but not a flat 10%. It's based on one's possessions and ability to pay. There are tithe collectors who go out and collect the zakit, once a year.
"Ramadan" is the mandatory fasting from sunrise to sunset for one month a year. No food or water is allowed and no smoking or sex and many other ""fasting rules", depending on your own sect's traditions.
"Makka" is Arabic spelling for Mecca, the holy centre of Islam in Saudi Arabia, the heart of Islam.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
#39064
10/17/04 08:25 AM
10/17/04 08:25 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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The obligatory month long fast has begun. Ramadan is one of the pillars of Islamic faith.
If there are any interested here, I will be glad to discuss this ritual.
[ October 17, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
[Re: Anonymous]
#80093
10/19/06 12:19 AM
10/19/06 12:19 AM
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I am not clear how this whole idea about jehovah being Alla came up.Its widely believed like that in India too.Could you also explain how we say that Moslems believe in Mary.
jasmin
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
[Re: Anonymous]
#80097
10/19/06 01:55 AM
10/19/06 01:55 AM
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I am not clear on this either, however, since this topic has been brought back to life again, perhaps we should go back to determining and examining some of the things that Muslims believe.
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Re: What Are Some of the Things That Muslims Believe?
[Re: Anonymous]
#86951
03/26/07 02:45 PM
03/26/07 02:45 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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It follows logically. Jesus is revered as a prophet among Muslims. Every prophet has a mother so they must also believe in Mary his mother.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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