Thank You Brother Jeff for your thoughts. I believe that you are on the right track, and I have re-adjusted some of my thinking.

Keep "the" faith!
Bro. Laurie

Hi Jeff

I tried to check out that website you referred us to so I could check out that UN document. I couldn't do it. Would you be able to check & see if it's right, and let us know?

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"The joy of the Lord will be your strength." (Neh.8:10).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Hi Jeff,
You may remember me from camp. I was the young pastor with red hair who came later in the week. I just wanted to let you know that your talks at camp meeting have given birth to a study group here in which we are sharing some of your insights with those who didn't make it to camp. Anyway, I was just wondering what you make of the following article taken from the Time.com website. It seems like the Papacy is shooting itself in the foot in regards to ecumenism. Have they come far enough to be so bold?

If Joe Lieberman's evangelizing has got you into a giddy whirl of ecumenism in which all the major religions seem to be equal, the Vatican has some sobering news: Never mind Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and Jews; even Christians who don't accept the pope as God's representative on Earth are going to have a hard time getting through the Pearly Gates.
Protestant leaders have expressed disappointment and alarm at the contents of a new theological declaration, endorsed by Pope John Paul II, which warns against viewing other Christian denominations as "sister churches" and warns that their failure to accept the primacy of the pope made them "deficient" churches. Followers of non-Christian faiths, meanwhile, have a "gravely deficient" chance for salvation, and most certainly not through merely following their own religious rituals. That would mean, of course, that the Catholic John. F. Kennedy would have been first among deceased American presidents to get an appointment with St. Peter.

There's nothing new in all of this, of course — the Vatican has always claimed such primacy on the basis of its origins with the Disciple Peter, the first pontiff. But the restatement of that principle at a time when John Paul II has been doing his utmost to build bridges both to other Christian denominations and to non-Christian faiths has raised eyebrows. The bad news for non-Catholics came in "Dominus Iesus," a 36-page declaration by Pope John Paul II's doctrine chief, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, that will be sent to every Catholic bishop warning against the temptation to view other denominations as equals. "There exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church," writes Ratzinger. Churches that don't accept papal primacy are, he says, in "imperfect communion" with the church, and are "not Churches in the proper sense."

The declaration is a further sign of an ongoing theological power struggle within the Vatican over the limits of the ecumenism promoted by John Paul II himself — or even of the more general friction between the church's more liberal and more conservative strands under his tenure. Monsignor Tarcisio Bertone, who introduced the document Tuesday, made explicit that the document was released to correct the "errors and ambiguities" of unnamed moderate Catholic theologians that had become widespread. Ratzinger added that such theologians were "manipulating and exceeding" the principle of religious tolerance by allowing for an equivalence between different religions.

While it had become commonplace over the past four decades for Catholic clergy to refer to other denominations as "Sister Churches," Ratzinger insists that Catholicism should be recognized as the "mother" church without peer. And by extension, that others are her errant children. Indeed, Ratzinger's document insists that when the Catholic Church engages in interfaith dialogue, it only does so as "part of her evangelizing mission" in which Catholic clergy are obliged to preach to believers of other faiths that Christ is "the sole redeemer." That sentiment may be consistent with Catholic doctrine, but it's hardly surprising that other clergy are treating it as something of a cloudburst on their ecumenical parade.

And this should surprise us because...????

Gerry B.

Because the "Mother Church" is so concerned with ecumenism, yet this kind of article would only serve to frustrate protestants and widen the 'gulf' that remains.

I remember you Pastor. We delivered some tables around the camp if I recal correctly. I have a different take on the Vatican's most recent pronouncements. I have been very short on time here late so I will summarize my thoughts without taking time to dig out the quotes I will refer to. In the Great Controversy we are told the "Rome can read what will be" and that she is simply "waiting for vantage ground to strike"! I believe Rome has decided that she needs to begin to push the issue of her position as the mother of all churches. It is Jesuit principle that you never reveal your attack until you know that the opponent is already defeated. Protestantism has forgotten what Protestantism is. The world and the church in general have placved the pope and the Catholic church on a pedestal. She has reached vantage ground. It is time for her to strike! She must now clarify some of the issues. Friends--ecumenism was never meant to be. Those who believed ecumenism would place all churches on an equal footing were blind. It was a tool to return Rome to her former position of power. I believe Rome has determined that those within the ecumenical movement that dislike her recent pronouncments are defeated foes. And they are. They have surrended any intellectual ground on which they could attack the Roman church over the last 100 years. It would be hypocritical of them to revert to old fashioned Protestanism. The trap is about to snap shut. Rome is reaserting what she believes to be her god-given authority. Get Ready, get ready, get ready!
Jeff

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I edited out the quoting of Pastor Dan's post.

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited September 14, 2000).]

One other thought pastor. Lieberman is against abortion, but has voted for it in order to conform to what he believes is best for the majority. He has done this same type of rationalizing on other political issues during his career. Though many view him as someone who is lifting up the Sabbath issue (and he is in a way), yet what would happen if in a great crisis there was a push for a national Sunday law, and the Sbbatarian vice president, or possibly president, (he is only one heartbeat away if elected)--What would happen if he used the same type of situatuinal ethic thinking on the Sunday law crisis? He would then send a powerful message to America that it is better that a minority be dealt with to protect the nation at large. . . .

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I deleted the quoting here of your previous post.

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited September 14, 2000).]

So basically Lieberman is a Pilate, which fits Solomon's realization that history is a big whell of repetition. The actors change but the act remains. I have much studying to do but I want to thank you for turning a young pastor back to the roots of the issue. Jesus is coming! And I believe you're right about the latest statements from the Vatican. They are getting bold because they know they have the upper hand. I have a Catholic lady in my church, and her family told her recently that there is no salvation outside "the church". The lines are being drawn, and in my community, the other "lesser" churches are falling to Rome hook line and sinker. I'm not an alarmist, quite the opposite, but it is becoming clear that time is short. Noah preached for 120 years. The three angel's messages are over 150 years old now and society is getting to the point where they won't listen to sound doctrine. The grey is disappearing and soon all will be black and white.

The pope met with Catholic leaders from South America recently. One thing in particular he told them is worth noting.

John Paul II affirmed that the challenges of the evangelizing mission in Latin American countries are numerous. "One of these," said the Pope, "is to conserve, defend, and increase the integrity of the faith. ... To this end it is necessary to give particular attention to the problem of sects which constitute 'a grave hindrance to the work of evangelization'. ... A determined pastoral action is necessary to confront this grave problem, reviewing the pastoral methods used, reinforcing the structures of communion and mission." The Pope assured that, where there are evangelizers, "sects do not prosper."

Compare what the pope said with what is going on in Mexico to SDAs and other protestant groups.

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
_________________________

Linda

It has begun.
Can it be much longer?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.