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Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42321
01/28/03 03:07 PM
01/28/03 03:07 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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Avalee:

Your question, which I read yesterday, is valid. I hope to post a response today, but I may not be able to do so. In any case, I will respond to you, if not today, later.

Thanks for waiting.

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42322
01/28/03 03:35 PM
01/28/03 03:35 PM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
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Zanesville, OH 43701
oysters 6 SOP hits 1-{4T 435.2}, 2-5{MR852 1.1 - 4.3},6{MR926 61.5}.

Necklace = 5 SOP hits {Ev 270.2}, {3SM 246.4}, {RH, March 28, 1882 par. 7}, {RH, March 17, 1896 par. 8}, {ST, July 2, 1894 par. 2}

"Children's stories" 2 SOP hits {3BIO 52.2}, {3BIO 52.3},

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42323
01/28/03 05:01 PM
01/28/03 05:01 PM
Avalee  Offline
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We should always take a thus saith the Lord. Always search out the truth on your own. You should never trust another human being for what could harm you or you children's salvation. Even if a moderator of this or any forum posts something that does not sound right...you MUST find out by searching the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy what is true and what is false.

quote:
High-Class Fiction
Counsels To Parents and Teachers
Page 383-385


There are works of fiction that were written for the purpose of teaching truth or exposing some great evil. Some of these works have accomplished good. Yet they have also wrought untold harm. They contain statements and highly wrought pen pictures that excite the imagination and give rise to a train of thought which is full of danger, especially to the youth. The scenes described are lived over and over again in their thoughts. Such reading unfits the mind for usefulness and disqualifies it for spiritual exercise. It destroys interest in the Bible. Heavenly things find little place in the thoughts. As the mind dwells upon the scenes of impurity portrayed, passion is aroused, and the end is sin.

Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny.

By fostering a love for mere amusement, the reading of fiction creates a distaste for life's practical duties. Through its exciting, intoxicating power it is not infrequently a cause of both mental and physical disease. Many a miserable, neglected home, many a lifelong invalid, many an inmate of the insane asylum, has become such through the habit of novel reading.

It is often urged that in order to win the youth from sensational or worthless literature, we should supply them with a better class of fiction. This is like trying to cure a drunkard by giving him, in the place of whisky or brandy, the milder intoxicants, such as wine, beer, or cider. The use of these would continually foster the appetite for stronger stimulants. The only safety for the inebriate, and the only safeguard for the temperate man, is total abstinence. For the lover of fiction the same rule holds true. Total abstinence is his only safety.

Myths and Fairy Tales

In the education of children and youth, fairy tales, myths, and fictitious stories are now given a large place. Books of this character are used in schools, and they are to be found in many homes. How can Christian parents permit their children to use books so filled with falsehood? When the children ask the meaning of stories so contrary to the teaching of their parents, the answer is that the stories are not true; but this does not do away with the evil results of their use. The ideas presented in these books mislead the children. They impart false views of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal.

The widespread use of such books at this time is one of the cunning devices of Satan. He is seeking to divert the minds of old and young from the great work of character building. He means that our children and youth shall be swept away by the soul-destroying deceptions with which he is filling the world. Therefore he seeks to divert their minds from the word of God and thus prevent them from obtaining a knowledge of those truths that would be their safeguard.

Never should books containing a perversion of truth be placed in the hands of children or youth.
Let not our children, in the very process of obtaining an education, receive ideas that will prove to be seeds of sin. If those with mature minds had nothing to do with such books, they would themselves be far safer, and their example and influence on the right side would make it far less difficult to guard the youth from temptation.


Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42324
01/28/03 05:10 PM
01/28/03 05:10 PM
Avalee  Offline
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quote:
There is another class of books--love-stories and frivolous, exciting tales--which are a curse to every one who reads them, even though the author may attach a good moral. Often religious statements are woven all through these books; but in most cases Satan is but clothed in angel robes, to deceive and allure the unsuspicious. The practise of story reading is one of the means employed by Satan to destroy souls. It produces a false, unhealthy excitement, fevers the imagination, unfits the mind for usefulness, and disqualifies it for any spiritual exercise. It weans the soul from prayer and the love of spiritual things. {RH, January 23, 1913 par. 7}


[ January 28, 2003, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42325
01/28/03 05:17 PM
01/28/03 05:17 PM
Avalee  Offline
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quote:
When we give the message in its purity, we shall have no use for pictures illustrating the birthplace of Shakespeare, or for pictures similar to the illustration of heathen goddesses that was used to fill the space on the first page of a recent number of the "Review and Herald." We are not to educate others along these lines. God pronounces against such articles and illustrations. I have a straightforward testimony to bear in regard to them. We are to extol neither idolatry nor men who did not choose to serve God. Years ago, reproof was given our editors in regard to advocating the reading of even such books as "Uncle Tom's Cabin," "Aesop's Fables," and "Robinson Crusoe." Those who begin to read such works usually desire to continue to read novels. Through the reading of enticing stories they rapidly lose their spirituality. This is one of the principal causes of the weak, uncertain spirituality of many of our youth.--Ms 169, 1902, pp. 6, 7. ("The Work of the St. Helena Sanitarium: Our Institutional Work to be Denominational," July 14, 1902.) {6MR 280.2}

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42326
01/29/03 01:33 PM
01/29/03 01:33 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Avalee & Others:

I have e-mailed the EG White estate and asked them to make a comment on one aspect of this question that I can copy here. So far, they have not responded to my request. Once they do, I will post a response. I have not forgotten.

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42327
01/30/03 04:37 AM
01/30/03 04:37 AM
Avalee  Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Gregory:
Avalee & Others:

I have e-mailed the EG White estate and asked them to make a comment on one aspect of this question that I can copy here. So far, they have not responded to my request. Once they do, I will post a response. I have not forgotten.

OK...I trust that comment is from the Spirit of Prophecy and not just their own persnoal opionion?

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42328
01/29/03 06:17 PM
01/29/03 06:17 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Avalee:

Think for a minute as to what you just said.

The issue raised is: Did EGW tell her children stories that were written by known novelists that commonly worte works of fiction? What is the evidence for this? What reason would there be to suppose that such a novelist would change and write a true story so that it could be told by EGW to her children? Could anyone logically expect that EGW would print such a statement in her published writings?

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42329
01/29/03 06:19 PM
01/29/03 06:19 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Folks, as I previously stated, I asked the White Estate to comment on the question of EGWs use of fiction in the stories that she told her children. They have now responded. In the following citation, my question to them comes first. Their response to me comes next.


You will note that I was not given clear permission to post their entire response. Therefore, I have abridged it. I think that I therefore am within any restrictions placed on me. Also, in the copy/paste function, there are formatting issues. I will attempt to correct major ones that might cause problems. But, I may not correct them all.

***********************************************************************
“Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:09:26 -0600
From: "Matthews, Temple Gregory"
To: "'mail@WhiteEstate.org'"
Subject: Scrapbook Stories

I am an Adventist minister who participates on a so-called Adventist chat group.

A post has been made that stated that EGW commonly read short stories to her children that were written by well-known novelists of her day, and therefore works of fiction. It was also stated that some of these stories were published by the Church in SCRAPBOOK STORIES, but many of the stories she read to them were not published.

Please comment on this post, so that I can publish your response on this chat group, and clear up any misunderstanding.

Thank you.
Gregory Matthews

Dear Pastor Matthews,

We received your query concerning the stories Ellen White collected for her children. As noted, many of the stories she selected were eventually published in various series both in her day and after her death. These publications included (in her day), the "Golden Grains" series and "Sabbath Readings for the Home Circle," first issued in the 1870s. In later years the church issued selections from those "readings" in a collection known as "Scrapbook Stories," so named because Ellen White had clipped choice articles and pasted them into scrapbooks for her children. We still have a
few original scrapbooks in our collection.

As to the question of whether these stories included works of fiction, I rely upon an extensive study of the scrapbook articles that was made by Dr. John Waller in the early 1960s. At the time he was chairman of the Department of English at Andrews University. His research endeavored to understand what Mrs. White meant when she used the term "fiction." He summarized his study in a 15-page paper presented before his colleagues in August 1965. The paper was later published by Loma Linda University. As I do not know what copyright restrictions may be involved in posting his paper or parts therefore in a public forum, I suggest you read the abbreviated "summary of his summary" I have copied below and that you might want to put his conclusions in your own words for anything you might wish to publicly post in your response. I quote the following from Waller's paper:

* * * * * *

"In her preface to Volume 1 of 'Sabbath Readings,' Mrs. White stated that she had 'been gathering a large amount of moral and religious reading during the past twenty years.' From this she had selected material for 'Sabbath Readings.' . . . Probably she collected for many years, preserving items that interested her, including stories to read to her own children, before anybody thought about her editing a book like 'Sabbath Readings.'. . . [sic.]

* * * * * * *

"I painstakingly examined one hundred ninety-four stories for any indication of origin. [Remember that these had been clipped from periodicals and pasted into scrapbooks.] [sic.] Most were anonymous. Those with identifiable authors were mostly by names now lost in obscurity. A few were recognizable as well-known fiction writers of their day including Hans Christian Anderson, Harriet Beecher Stowe, and T. S. Arthur, author of 'Ten Nights in a Barroom.'

* * * * * * *

[Dr. Waller goes on to say that it can be determined that 26 stories came from 17 magazines, of which five were secular periodicals. He then goes on to comment on another group of stories.—Gregory Matthews.]


"Even more useful is the fact that periodicals in those days very freely lifted articles and stories from each other, frequently with acknowledgment. These notations allow us to identify the original sources of an additional seventy-three stories, which first saw the light in fifty-four different magazines, including fifteen secular periodicals, several of which were known primarily as fiction magazines. [NOTE: That several were fiction magazines—Gregory Matthews.] Remember that Mrs. White did not handle these, but only saw the stories that had been selected from them by the magazines she did handle. But all in all I identified a total of sixty-nine separate magazine sources. Yet these account for fewer than half
the stories. It would not seem unreasonable to guess that originally
perhaps a hundred different magazines were involved.

* * * * *

[Dr. Waller then goes on to state that it can not be imagined that EGW would have written to the editeors of 100, or more, magazines to ask if their stories were true, or fiction—Gregory Matthews.]

"Apparently, then, her condemnation was not intended to be applied
indiscriminately to all stories that do not happen to be true-to-fact. . . . Thus, in approaching certain types at least of non-factual stories, Mrs. White's practice allowed scope for critical judgment. But everybody acquainted with Mrs. White's writings will know that the judgments set forth therein concerning fiction were very conservative. . . . [sic.]


"On the evidence of the scrapbooks and 'Sabbath Readings,' I conclude that absence of sheer factuality was not Mrs. White's definition of fiction. At least between 1850 and 1880 she herself read and preserved for future reference many relatively short, morally impeccable nonfactual stories that appeared in various magazines. I dare say she skimmed through countless others that she did not preserve. Thus in practice, she established the principle of exercising moral discrimination in dealing with simple, clearly moralistic fiction. But her writings agree with those of numerous other morally concerned observers of her time that fiction-reading--especially the sopping up of novels--as it manifested itself during those years was, for
the most part, very unhealthy. Whenever she mentioned it at all, she
uniformly warned against it. Nowhere, so far as I can see, does she imply approval of the reading of any novel." (John O. Waller, "A Contextual Study of Ellen G. White's Counsel Concerning Fiction," in "Seventh-day Adventists on Literature," ed. Robert Dunn, Department of English, Loma Linda University, 1974, pp. 56, 57, 59.)


Tim Poirier
Associate Director/Archivist
Ellen G. White Estate
12501 Old Columbia Pike
Silver Spring, Maryland 20904

Phone: 301 680-6540
FAX: 301 680-6559
Website: www.WhiteEstate.org
E-mail: TPoirier@WhiteEstate.org


**************************************************

Re: Poll: Would You Let Your Child Read "Harry Potter" Books? #42330
01/29/03 06:25 PM
01/29/03 06:25 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Folks:

I have to say that a reasonable person could conclude that EGW did tell fictious stories to her children. She did not exclude all works of fiction, but exercised a very conservative judgement. After all, did she not approve of Pilgrams Progress.

EGW was not as regid as some would like to make her out to be.

Anyhow, I await your comments.

Peace,

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