Gregory,

Then the same must done to the Bible writers So we may find how they applied what they wrote in their lives, and know how they interpreted what they wrote.

=======

***** This post has been edited to remove that portion of the post which speaks to the person making a post or expressing an opinion, more so than to the subject itself. - Daryl *****

[ January 30, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Charlene:

If I have said anything that appears to weaken the SOP, I apologize. That is not where I am coming from.

(**** This portion of the post being perceived as a judgment against another person has been removed - Daryl. ****)

God is truth. God's truth has nothing to fear from truth. A belief in the Spirit of Prophecy has nothing to fear from people knowing that she did read such stories to her children. That does not lessen in any way the truth that God used her in a marked way to guide the SDA Chruch in its formative years. And, EGW still has valid counsel to share with us today.

[ January 30, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

My faith in the Bible and the Sprit of Prophecy is so strong that no matter what you post about them....would not undermine my faith in either. My faith is not in man but inspiration.

My above posts are just a warning to others that may be reading your posts, please do not let any question be put into your mind about the sureness or faithfulness of BOTH the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible.

You've got to be kidding. Please reread every post in this thread. I pray for some eyes to be opened.

Charlene-
You are right on target and I doubt that "they" will wear you down. It appears to me that often, not always, the more education a person has the more he cavils about a thus saith the Lord or admonition from the SOP. Do we have time to spend on junk reading? Aren't there enough stories that are true so that one does not need to sully his mind with the product of someone's imagination?

I suppose someone will jump on this but I would not even waste my time on fiction that the church printed as a missionary book, wasn't it? It was the figment of someone's imagination. In SDA academia there are too many who endorse fiction. Take a look at the Spectrum web site, the home of the intellectuals. :-)

Thank you Pete for your kind words.

Yes, the "books of a new order" now line the shelves of the ABCs. They make money, so the presses roll.

I am so thankful that we only need to go to our Bibles and the Spirit of Prophecy to get all the truth, excitement and knowledge/God's wisdom that we need to prepare us for His Kingdom.

Maranatha...- A Standard you can Trust---PG- 94

"None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict. To every soul will come the searching test: Shall I obey God rather than
men? The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God's immutable word? Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus? . . ."

Harry Potter?..."just say no!!!"

Let us pray for the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

God Bless

I have ganied the imprssion that Pete, and others, may think that I advocate the wholesale reading of fiction. To clairfy this, I do not. I am perplexed that any might come to tha opinion about me. I can not think of anything that I may have said that would give such an idea.

It is true, that in older posts, I have approved of reading some of C. S. Lewis's works, and of PILGRIM'S PROGRESS. These are clearly works of fiction, or as some would say, parables. But, if you object to this, I don't think that this is a wholesale endorsement of reading fiction.

My above comment was made as a result of reading some specific comments by Pete, and others. However, my next comments are not made with any specific person in mind. I am not writing specificly to Charlene. Some have thought that she and I were taking pot-shots at each other. As a result, comments were edited out of posts both of us had made. I did not see it that way, and did not request that any editing be done.

Walter Rae, who wrote THE WHITE LIE, is a very clear example of a problem that all of us may face. Walter began his ministry as an ardent proponent of Ellen White. I used to read his writings on her, and I felt that he often, not always, took an extreme position.

As a result of his studies, he became aware that Ellen White had used the writings of other people in her published works. [If you want more on this, review the comprehensive study done by Fred Veltman, and available on-line in the General Conference archives.] He was unable to integrate this new knowledge into his spiritual life. As a result, he proverbably threw the baby out with the bath-water. Rae is now a leading opponent of Ellen White.

My question to you-all is: What do we do in our spiritual life when we are made aware of new information that appears to conflict with what we previously beleived?

Historically, we have seen many do as Walter Rae did. During the Millerite Movement, many gave up on all religion because Christ did not come in 1844. I will suggest to you that this is often not a spiritually healthy approach.

Rather, I will suggest that there are two spiritually healthy approaches. I cast these in terms of our present discussion of EGW and fiction.

a) We may decide that Ellen White was an imperfect human who did not alwasy fully understand the light God had given her, and/or did not fully practice it.

I think that EGW would agree with this postion. She never counseled people to follow her example. She neither claimed infability, nor imperfection.

b) Me may decide that our understanding was imperfect, and we therefor need to revise our doctrinal position. This was certaianly the position taken by those early people who accepted William Miller's exposition of the Second Advent. I believe that this also is healthy.

I leave it to all of you to decide of either of these postions applies to the issue of EGW and fiction. But, let us look further at what we can say about EGW and fiction.

1) It is very clear that she did not advocate
the reading of what she called fiction and novels. She was, interestingly enough, more negative against novels, than she ws against fiction. So, whatever her position, it can be stated that she would never advocate wholesale reading of such.


2) However, we do know that she had PILGRAM'S PROGRESS in her library, and we have reason to believe that she read it. Is it possible that she did not consider this to be an example of what she meant when she spoke out against fiction? Or, do we say she was an imperfect example? You decide.

3) We are now faced with the fact that rasonable people could conclude that she read some short-stories to her children that were likely works of fiction. How do we deal with this? You decide. Some sincere people will conclude that she practiced what she wrote, and therefore, those carefully selected stories were not in violation of what she wrote. Yes, the record does indicate that she was very selective, and refused more than she accepted.

I bring this up because I think it is very important. We have an example in the life of Walter Rae of a direction one may take that I do not consider to be spiritually healthy. I do not want to see anyone else fall into this.

Gregory in this Harry Potter thread you are the one voicing sentiments that by their tone cast doubt upon the honesty of EGW. The aspersions you are creating seems to run like this. “Did she really practice what she preached, or did she say one thing and do another on the side ?”

A. If she sinned it is up to God to decide to record those sins and publish them.
B. If she sinned it is no excuse to publish it and paint it as justification for someone else’s choices.
C. Publishing her sins are they not put in a similar light as Genesis 9:20-27 ? Are you not uncovering the nakedness of the spiritual mother of the SDA faith ? Where is your inspiration written justification ?

“To repeople the desolate earth, which the Flood had so lately swept from its moral corruption, God had preserved but one family, the household of Noah, to whom He had declared, "Thee have I seen righteous before Me in this generation." Genesis 7:1. Yet in the three sons of Noah was speedily developed the same great distinction seen in the world before the Flood. In Shem, Ham, and Japheth, who were to be the founders of the human race, was foreshadowed the character of their posterity. {PP 117.1}

Noah, speaking by divine inspiration, foretold the history of the three great races to spring from these fathers of mankind. Tracing the descendants of Ham, through the son rather than the father, he declared, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." The unnatural crime of Ham declared that filial reverence had long before been cast from his soul, and it revealed the impiety and vileness of his character. These evil characteristics were perpetuated in Canaan and his posterity, whose continued guilt called upon them the judgments of God. {PP 117.2}

On the other hand, the reverence manifested by Shem and Japheth for their father, and thus for the divine statutes, promised a brighter future for their descendants. Concerning these sons it was declared: "Blessed be Jehovah, God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." The line of Shem was to be that of the chosen people, of God's covenant, of the promised Redeemer. Jehovah was the God of Shem. From him would descend Abraham, and the people of Israel, through whom Christ was to come. "Happy is that people, whose God is the Lord." Psalm 144:15. And Japheth "shall dwell in the tents of Shem." In the blessings of the gospel the descendants of Japheth were especially to share. {PP 117.3}

The posterity of Canaan descended to the most degrading forms of heathenism. Though the prophetic curse had doomed them to slavery, the doom was withheld for centuries. God bore with their impiety and corruption until they passed the limits of divine forbearance. Then they were dispossessed, and became bondmen to the descendants of Shem and Japheth. {PP 118.1}

The prophecy of Noah was no arbitrary denunciation of wrath or declaration of favor. It did not fix the character and destiny of his sons. But it showed what would be the result of the course of life they had severally chosen and the character they had developed. It was an expression of God's purpose toward them and their posterity in view of their own character and conduct. As a rule, children inherit the dispositions and tendencies of their parents, and imitate their example; so that the sins of the parents are practiced by the children from generation to generation. Thus the vileness and irreverence of Ham were reproduced in his posterity, bringing a curse upon them for many generations. "One sinner destroyeth much good." Ecclesiastes 9:18. {PP 118.2}

On the other hand, how richly rewarded was Shem's respect for his father; and what an illustrious line of holy men appears in his posterity! "The Lord knoweth the days of the upright," "and his seed is blessed." Psalm 37:18, 26. "Know therefore that the Lord thy God He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations." Deuteronomy 7:9. {PP 118.3}

post RE: EGW herself #1

quote:

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Gregory posted January 27, 2003 06:52 AM

quote:

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Yes, the idea can be obtained from her writings that she opposed all fiction. That is the position that I once took. [NOTE: I am not saying that I have substantially changed it.]

However, she read short stories, written by great novelists of her day, to her children. I have to assume that those short stories were works of fiction. We have published some (not all) of those stories in a book we have titled SCRAPBOOK STORIES.

Ellen White was a complex woman. In her personal life she was not nearly as rigid as some have gathered from reading her writings.

---

*******************
post RE: EGW herself #2
Gregory posted January 27, 2003 12:28 PM

Daryl:

I am saying that we clearly know that Ellen White read short stories to her children that were written by novelists of her day. From the standpoint of authorship, and of story content, it is pretty clear that they were works of fiction.

Some comments:

1) EGW was human, and we can not expect perfection in her.
(Try God’s command to Abram Genesis 17:1 And when Abram <087> was ninety <08673> <08141> years <08141> old <01121> and nine <08672>, the LORD <03068> appeared <07200> (8735) to Abram <087>, and said <0559> (8799) unto him, I am the Almighty <07706> God <0410>; walk <01980> (8690) before me <06440>, and be thou perfect <08549>.
08549 Mymt tamiym taw-meem’

from 08552; TWOT-2522d; adj

AV-without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6, uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3; 91

1) complete, whole, entire, sound
1a) complete, whole, entire
1b) whole, sound, healthful
1c) complete, entire (of time)
1d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
1e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)
08549. Mymt tamiym taw-meem’; from 08552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:—without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.

2) People have often made her out to be more rigid than she was. I suspect that this is the issue with her use of fiction.

3) People who know, see these aspects in her in the fictitious stories she told her children, in her wearing simple jewelry (a necklace), and in her eating oysters.

---

( I have responded by posting SOP RE: the jewelry & oysters & fiction.)

[/quote]

( I have responded by posting SOP RE: the jewelry & oysters & fiction.)

quote:

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Gregory posted January 29, 2003 02:25 PM
Folks:

I have to say that a reasonable person could conclude that EGW did tell fictious stories to her children. She did not exclude all works of fiction, but exercised a very conservative judgement. After all, did she not approve of Pilgrams Progress.

EGW was not as regid as some would like to make her out to be.

Anyhow, I await your comments.

Peace,

---

It seems from the tone of these quotes that EGW approved & prized Pilgrim’s progress.

Pilgrim’s progress - 12 SOP hits

1. Again, as in apostolic days, persecution turned out to the furtherance of the gospel. In a loathsome dungeon crowded with profligates and felons, John Bunyan breathed the very atmosphere of Heaven, and there he wrote his wonderful allegory of the pilgrim's journey from the land of destruction to the celestial city. For two hundred years that voice from Bedford jail has spoken with thrilling power to the hearts of men. Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" and "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners" have guided many feet into the path of life.
{GC88 252.2}
Baxter, Flavel, Alleine, and other men of talent, education, and deep Christian experience, stood up in valiant defense of the faith which was once delivered to the saints. The work accomplished by these men, prescribed and outlawed by the rulers of this world, can never perish. Flavel's "Fountain of Life" and "Method of Grace" have taught thousands how to commit the keeping of their souls to Christ. Baxter's "Reformed Pastor" has proved a blessing to many who desire a revival of the work of God, and his "Saint's Everlasting Rest" has done its work in leading souls to the "rest that remaineth for the people of God." {GC88 253.1}

2. Repeat

3. Success does not depend so much upon age or circumstances in life as upon the real love that one has for others. Look at John Bunyan inclosed by prison walls. His enemies think that they have placed him where his work for others must cease. But not so. He is not idle. The love for souls continues to burn within him, and from his dark prison-house there springs a light which shines to all parts of the civilized world. His book, "The Pilgrim's Progress," written under these trying circumstances, portrays the Christian life so accurately, and presents the love of Christ in such an attractive light, that hundreds and thousands have been converted through its instrumentality. {HS 151.2}

4. Christian strength is obtained by serving the Lord faithfully. Young men and young women should realize that to be one with Christ is the highest honor to which they can attain. By the strictest fidelity they should strive for moral independence, and this independence they should maintain against every influence that may try to turn them from righteous principles. Stronger minds may, yes, they will, make assertions that have no foundation in truth. Let the heavenly eyesalve be applied to the eyes of your understanding, that you may distinguish between truth and error. Search the Word; and when you find a "Thus saith the Lord," take your stand. . . . {ML 73.3}
In Pilgrim's Progress there is a character called Pliable. Youth, shun this character. Those represented by it are very accommodating, but they are as a reed shaken by the wind. They possess no will power. Every youth needs to cultivate decision. A divided state of the will is a snare, and will be the ruin of many youth. Be firm, else you will be left with your house, or character, built upon a sandy foundation. {ML 73.4}
The Lord's philosophy is the rule of the Christian's life. The entire being should be imbued with the life-giving principles of heaven. The busy nothings which consume the time of so many shrink into their proper position before a healthy, sanctifying Bible piety. {ML 73.5}

5. repeat

6. Repeat of earlier quote.

7. Repeat
8. Repeat
9. Repeat
10. (In a written council to J H Kellogg) “Nehemiah is an example of the standard that must be maintained at any expense. Neither danger nor difficulty would shake his adherence to the just, holy, righteous principles of truth. The honor that must be maintained in the work to be done for this time requires staunch determination. Men are needed who will say, "The hand of God is good upon me; I will arise and build." [See Neh. 2:18.] There are today too many Pliables, as in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. Beware of the inclination to follow your own impulses. Adam, hiding himself from God, encompassed himself in obstructing darkness. “ {20MR 348.3}

11. Repeat

12. James and Ellen White were also struggling. While some of the ministers had to drop out from time to time and labor with their hands to support their families, James White found as he traveled among the believers that there were those in need of Bibles and other books. He bought supplies and carried some with him, or supplied them from Battle Creek. These he sold at a profit. The Review of May 13, 1858, carried this back page notice: {1BIO 387.3}

We have for sale Cruden's Concordance, Nelson on
Infidelity, Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.--JW. and


We have a supply of English Bibles, three sizes.--JW. {1BIO 387.4}
With the publication of The Great Controversy in the summer of 1858, Ellen White had a little income. But as reported in the Review of November 25, 1858, "what little profit there was on it was all solemnly dedicated to the Lord, and $25 out of it had already been given to one of the Lord's needy servants [M. B. Czechowski]." {1BIO 387.5}