Thank you Edward for your response. Robbie really appreciated the detailed specific answers to 6 meals a day.
It was also a reminder to myself to be more careful about when I eat!

Does anyone know what Creatine is really made of? It doesn't say on the container.

Be Still, My Soul
Zita

Zita

It takes pounds of beef products to create the processed product creatine. It is so processed that it may not qualify under labeling laws as an animal product.

*****************

Gerry

Definitly working out will help, but first get detailed information about your specific condition as far as the CHF goes.

1. Progressive resistance will cause your conditioned muscles to use oxygen more efficently and waste less of it.

2. Increased upper body & lower body strength will be an important part of a pulmonary rehab makeover for you.

3. After 2-4 weeks your energy levels will begin to build as the muscles as they get reconditioned begin to chemically store more energy in themselves. It's called ATP, and it's stored in the muscle cells in a place called mitocondria. Weight lifting that stresses the bones causes then to micro-bend and this chemically causes them to uptake calcium faster & better & get denser at any age. Working out is not just for the young. I'll post some seniors weight lifting @ the bottom to illustrate.

4. Progressive resistance workouts will increase the brain's levels of mood elevating endorphin chemicals (so it will diminish the blues that hit you some what.)

5. Working out needs to be tailored to each person and their situation. Start by using milk jugs or bleach jugs (with leak proof screwdown caps - as dumbells & as you get stronger add more water till the jugs are full.)

Look at the Bill Pearl website & click on "Programs" on the top of the homepage screen. This will explain what many of the various excercises are & how to do them. Bill is our age or older & veggie too (lacto-ovo) but he is not SDA and may not be a Christian - don't know. So don't expect him to automatically see things like SDA's do. But he is one of the top body building experts in the country & vegetarian - so e-mail him & ask if you can post replies. (Maybe he might join MSDAOL ?????

***************

Older weightlifting by senior men.

U.S. National Masters Records - Men
April 1, 2000
AGE GROUP: 75 - 79 (9)
SNATCH (9)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 35.0 9/05/99 GLASGOW, SCO
62.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 35.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 ALLAN CHASNOV MASSAPEQUA, NY 37.5 11/07/98 VINELAND, NJ
77.0
85.0
94.0 HAROLD BAILEY HOPKINTON, RI 70.5 3/21/99 ENFIELD, CT
105.0 PHILIP SKARIN VAN NUYS, CA 65.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
105.0+ JACK LANO ANAHEIM, CA 62.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA

CLEAN & JERK (9)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 47.5 9/05/99 GLASGOW, SCO
62.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 52.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 ALLAN CHASNOV MASSAPEQUA, NY 45.0 11/07/98 VINELAND, NJ
77.0
85.0
94.0 HARRISON SKEETE AMITYVILLE, NY 85.0 4/03/98 FREDERICK, MD
105.0 JACK LANO ANAHEIM, CA 85.0 6/13/99 COLLINGWOOD, ON, CAN
105.0+ JACK LANO ANAHEIM, CA 80.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA

TOTAL (9)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 82.5 9/05/99 GLASGOW, SCO
62.0 WAYNE OYAFUSO MAKAWAO, MAUI, HI 87.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 ALLAN CHASNOV MASSAPEQUA, NY 82.5 11/07/98 VINELAND, NJ
77.0
85.0
94.0 HARRISON SKEETE AMITYVILLE, NY 155.0 8/12/98 PORTLAND, OR
105.0 PHILIP SKARIN VAN NUYS, CA 147.5 9/05/99 GLASGOW, SCO
105.0+ JACK LANO ANAHEIM, CA 142.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA

U.S. National Masters Records - Men
April 1, 2000
AGE GROUP: 80 - 84 (10)
SNATCH (10)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0 TEDDY YENARI METAIRIE, LA 35.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 30.0 4/03/98 FREDERICK, MD
77.0
85.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 40.0 8/12/98 PORTLAND, OR
94.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 40.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0 ERNIE EDWARDS SAVANNAH, GA 35.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0+

CLEAN & JERK (10)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0 TEDDY YENARI METAIRIE, LA 40.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 30.0 4/03/98 FREDERICK, MD
77.0
85.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 50.0 4/03/98 FREDERICK, MD
94.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 50.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0 ERNIE EDWARDS SAVANNAH, GA 35.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0+

TOTAL (10)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0 TEDDY YENARI METAIRIE, LA 75.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 60.0 4/03/98 FREDERICK, MD
77.0
85.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 90.0 8/12/98 PORTLAND, OR
94.0 CHARLES MEOLE BATON ROUGE, LA 90.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0 ERNIE EDWARDS SAVANNAH, GA 70.0 6/14/98 SAVANNAH, GA
105.0+

U.S. National Masters Records - Men
April 1, 2000
AGE GROUP: 85+ (11)
SNATCH (11)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 27.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
77.0
85.0
94.0
105.0
105.0+

CLEAN & JERK (11)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 30.0 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
77.0
85.0
94.0
105.0
105.0+

TOTAL (11)
Weight
Class Lifter Hometown Kg Date Set Meet Site
56.0
62.0
69.0 JOHN STEPHENSON SANTA FE, NM 57.5 4/08/99 BATON ROUGE, LA
77.0
85.0
94.0
105.0
105.0+

The configuration of the tables did not make it thorough the copy/posting process too well, but you see men in their seventies & eighties competing in weightlifting contests.

Sort of encourages me too.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Ed,
I have one of the old style weight benches here ( the one that uses concrete weights covered with vinyl) and I was thinking of starting using that.
Also, what about those toning bands; don't they come in different resistances?
Would something like that be easier on my arthritis?
I will go look at the web site you suggested and ask questions if he'll let me.
Thanks,
Gerry

Gerry

Definitly start from there.

I ran across a book by Dave Draper "the Blond Bomber" from the Joe Weider "60's-70's"

Brother Iron, Sister Steel: A Bodybuilder's Book
by Dave Draper
Our Price: $24.95
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.

Category: Sports

Get free shipping on this book! Click for details

Paperback - (January 1, 2001) 336 pages

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial Reviews

Fearless Reviews, November, 2000
"Solidly affirming... Entertaining, even philosophical. ...Fun, informative, and (I have to say it) brawny..."

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Book Description
BEHIND THE SCENES:
Brother Iron, Sister Steel is a private journey into bodybuilding as only Dave Draper, former Mr. America, Mr. Universe and Mr. World, can tell it. Training techniques, exercise descriptions and nutritional strategies form the book's foundation, but what glues this book together are Dave's personal experiences and insights, humor and candidness, all of which speak to the heart and soul. The delight in the iron work, the play of the steel and the redefined motivation will have you striving forward to reach your fitness and training goals.

Further your iron journey—or take your first steps—as you find yourself caught up in the style and rhythm that are Draper's alone. You'll see the lessons of Brother Iron, Sister Steel hit home as your training enthusiasm abounds. In your next match with the weights you'll see the work of your muscles with new clarity under the guidance of Dave's insight.

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From the Publisher
Thousands of people were charged by the heroic photos of Dave that were plastered through magazines of every genre in the 1960s and 70s, and today email messages clog Draper's inbox as people, now in their 40s and 50s, write to express their appreciation to him for his influence on their life of fitness. On Target Publications is happy to present this offering to share that experience with today's readers.

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From the Author
The ten years behind the counter and on the floor of my gym in California have signaled to me that everyone must exercise and eat right if he or she hopes to live a sound and fulfilling life. Too few do and far too many lives are in a shambles because of it. As conscientious gym owner, I am in a prime position to help the ailing, negligent and uneducated masses. And, certainly others and I do.
Brother Iron, Sister Steel was written to engage that edge of the population who dare to walk in the gym only to walk out because purpose and desire were missed. It was written as well for the tentative trainee who wanders the floor with desire, yet remain is without a clue. The intermediates who love the pump and burn and want to dig in deeper will, undoubtedly, identify with the facts, tales, fascinations and frustrations of muscle building as visited by an old time... still and always one of the boys. The young and the hardcore... about them I cannot be sure, only that in the years to come, should they endure, they will appreciate the content and philosophy and, perhaps, wish they had referenced it sooner.

Are you confused and have a question about your training? If there is an answer, chances are the answer is here.

Be strong. Dave Draper

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About the Author
Currently 58, Dave, bodybuilding's "Blond Bomber," began his training adventure at the age of eight; fifty years of bodybuilding experience form the nucleus of his life, his book and his gym in central California. Dave writes an email article that goes out weekly to thousands and is a regular contributor to Muscle and Fitness magazine.

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Excerpted from Brother Iron, Sister Steel by Dave Draper. Copyright © 2001. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved
From Chapter 9, pages 197-199 - Overcoming...
OVERCOMING

My fingers don’t float over the laptop with the greatest of ease. Eventually, they find the keys as if they were lost and manage to depress two or three at once. I mutter and tap, delete, backspace and tap, mutter, tap. We’re moving right along.

Thus far, if you started at the beginning, you’ve read of the early days, Muscle Beach, my emergence as a bodybuilder, the training styles I embrace and the exercises I do: how, why and when. Nutrition and its role were outlined and hopefully caused you to consider how, when, what, why and how much to eat. A variety of obscure peeves were addressed and lesser-recognized attributes applauded. What’s left?

How about the daily obstacles that detract from the joy of lifting? Let’s scrape together a heap of the most unpopular and revolting stumbling blocks we can recall and give them a toss. The pungent pile should sufficiently beat us up and make us stronger.

Overtraining
Plateaus and Sticking Points
Genetics
Discouragement and Lack of Motivation
Negative Conditions
Nausea After a Workout
Packed City
Abandoned Workout Routines
I Ain’t Got No Time and I Ain’t Got Nobody
Changes
Pain and Injury
Rotator Cuff — The Most Common Injury
Injury Rehabilitation
Steroids
Aging
Smoking
Slumps and Seasons
Training Partners and My Dog, Spot
Training On and On

OVERTRAINING

As we move along in our training and vigorously apply the six basic keys (if you forgot ’em, see page 33), we need to be aware of the various bodybuilding snags and pitfalls. At any and every level of training our deadliest and most subtle enemy is overtraining. After an initial surge, muscular gains come slowly at best and only from a lot of hard work. We therefore conclude that the harder we work, the greater our growth. This faulty “more is better” logic will surely lead us to a discouraging deadend. In our eagerness to build muscle, we exceed our beginning training limitations and tear down more muscle tissue that the body is able to repair.

The major symptoms of overtraining are chronic fatigue, insomnia, loss of appetite, proneness to injury and illness and the inability to achieve a pump. You may think you have the flu as muscles ache, bodyweight and strength drop and you have a nagging loss of interest in your training.

If any of these symptoms of overtraining heap up on you, ease off your training immediately and take time out to re-evaluate yourself and your workouts. Recovery from overtraining is often brought about by decreasing your training levels, either the number of workouts, number of exercises or number of sets.

This may be a good time to be creative. Try something new or alter your training to reactivate your interest. Check out your diet. Make sure you’re getting plenty of muscle-building protein and carbohydrate before and after your workouts. The body feeds off its own tissue as an energy source if not adequately supplied by food intake. It’s vital to keep your attitude up and seek encouragement from partners and friends. This healthy sharing and introspection furthers your learning experience and overall awareness.

You may wisely choose to take a layoff entirely, giving the body a chance to recuperate and your mind the needed time away from the gym. You’ll come back after the rest days mentally and physically refreshed and with renewed enthusiasm.

The information and advice given above is standard: concise, clean and safe. I feel like Percival the Nobleman. You may all go about your busy business and build concise, clean and safe muscles. I must admit that I have generally overtrained in adherence to my obstinate theory that hypertrophy must be an insistent process. Slam the workouts, eat big and in smart balance, rest as you must equals The Draper Formula (a.k.a. The Bomber Formula).

Slam means slam: sets and reps and numerous movements in volume with heavy doubles and triples on the systemic movements two or three times a month. No misses, no layoffs, the head and body hard at work. I’m not saying it works. I’m not telling you to try it. It’s what I do.

There’s a term, “periodization,” we talked about earlier attached to a method of training that I’ve always practiced, undoubtedly one of the most common training methods employed by bodybuilders and attributable to their common sense. Simply (minus all the technical garbage), periodization means training for a given goal over an extended period of time with appropriate changes in sets, reps, exercises and phases. Such an approach intelligently and comprehensively works the different muscles in differing ways to satisfy their respective and varying growth components without overtraining or overloading: maximum efficiency accomplished. I believe I apply the principles of ... ahem ... periodization to the max, accidentally.
*****************

OK Guys & gals ....remember SOP gives insights into health beyond modern marketing and even the most well meaning folks without SOP.

Bodybuilding & strength training needs to be mixed with the guidence of Inspiration, so we will not get off Inspiration's guidelines and goals for us. However their will be plenty of room for plenty of bodybuilding & health building in full co-operation with SOP. We will have to dig & compare & compile what we EACH learn. So guys & gals we train together, share research together, and build our health and bodies in harmony with inspiration together (as much as cyberspace allows.)

Bye for now (if I can endure waiting that long.)

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Bodybuilding & strength training & reconditioning are both physical and chemical endeavors.

Physical because you workout to get certain results.

Chemical because the workout and the lifestyle that is combined with the workouts seek to cause the desired chemical changes in the body that cause bigger muscles, or reconditioning, or an increase of strength and or athletic abilities for work or play.

All eight laws of health are indespensable parts of bodybuilding, strength-training, reconditioning for the SDA, as much as they are for the non workingout SDA or for anybody whether workingout or not.

So lets begin with building a baseline of education in the practical knowledge of the eight laws of health as they apply to folks wanting to workout for bodybuilding, strength training & reconditioning. I will go up to Linda's forum & copy & paste the eight point list from there and use it to build a "cookie cutter" to use here.

1.Pure air
2.sunlight
3.abstemiousness
4.rest
5.exercise
6.proper diet
7.the use of water
8.trust in divine power
--these are the true remedies. Every person should have a knowledge of nature's remedial agencies and how to apply them. It is essential both to understand the principles involved in the treatment of the sick and to have a practical training that will enable one rightly to use this knowledge.

The use of natural remedies requires an amount of care and effort that many are not willing to give. Nature's process of healing and upbuilding is gradual, and to the impatient it seems slow. The surrender of hurtful indulgences requires sacrifice. But in the end it will be found that nature, untrammeled, does her work wisely and well. Those who persevere in obedience to her laws will reap the reward in health of body and health of mind. Ministery of Healing p-127

1. pure air - The body was designed to breath only pure air, anything else causes problems.

Be sure you live where there is good pure air with good air drainage. Not stuck where naturaly stagnent air wells up around where you live. Not living where the air is polluted because human inventions gunk it up. Be sure you have a well ventilated home with pure air inside the home as well as plenty of fresh air inside all the time no matter the season. In hot / cold climates this means some kind of heat or cool temprature exchanger to heat or cool the fresh air being brought into the house to keep the heating cooling bills livable.

Now onto personal fresh air, your own breathing. During your wake time, if you polute your personal air, by what ever means - now is the time to clean it up - trusting and using the Divine power . If during your sleep-time you have breathing problems contact your local sleep lab & get the help you need. (see Natural Remedies Alternative Treatment Forum - Help for CHF thread - sleep apnea syndrome.)

The lungs, kidneys, brain and the "chemo-receptors" otherwise known as basically chemical safety switches and sensors that tell the brain when changes need to be made.

Control the PH of the blood & body fluids. If the PH goes too far out of range the muscles can not work and the heart stops.

7.40 is the PH that is considered classic normal.

Your food also affects PH of the blood & body fluids and the PH is always getting buffered or chemically brought back into normal working range by the body systems.

Animal protein eaten metabolizes differently than only plant protein alone, for the most part. After all lab creations even from plant sources may act very differently in the body - they are not naturally occuring.

Animal protein and some concentrated plant proteins when digested leave a very acid residue or "ash" in the body. This hase to be buffered or chemically returned to the normal PH range by something very non acid or alkaline (called"basic" because bases are actually alkaline substances), from the bodies supplies. In the most rapid sense just breathing faster & deeper for most folks makes the blood more alkaline. But the kidneys begin putting less sodium bicarbonate into the urine, and retaining it in the bloodstream & lympth fluid. As this becomes insufficent the calcium carbonate is leached from the bones to keep the PH within normal limits.

Too much protein is a threat to bones especially if it is animal based protein. Research done by Dairy & Meat Boards could you trust it to be unbiased ? Research that disagrees with Inspiration and Anatomy & Physiology that agrees with Inspiration. Fair and balanced ??

Around the Dinner Plate in 80 Seconds, we report you decide .

In summation you need constantly fresh, pure air and learn how to guard your bodies health, and trust Inspiration and not get sucked into the hype of marketing . End of pure air section for now.

More later about the next law of health as it relates to bodybuilding, strength training, reconditioning.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited March 16, 2001).]

Another thing that the trainors are pushing is Glutamine, used in recovery after a workout.

What Glutamine does is narrow the arteries to force the blood through and give off more oxygen, so that you feel great after a workout.

For some people this can cause a stroke.

Glutamine is recommended also for Tinnitus, memory loss amongst other things. It is quite dangerous, yet is been consumed at an alarming rate.

Robbies trainor is coming off of Creatine.

.......................
Be Still, My Soul
Zita

Too much bodybuilding promises health, but delivers instead a market for lots of supplement sales and workout rotines base on steroid induced recovery & anabolics.

In the 50's & 60's they were big & about 75% as defined or "cut". Good food & balancing workingout to produce the need to grow & rest from working out to allow that growth to occur, produced muscles bigger - stronger - healther over all than the hyper augmented physiques of today. Building big & strong takes time & smarts. Rushing it with the hyper augmented methods builds big faster, and creates a scorched earth policy in your body. Look at Jack Lalayne verses Bodybuilders from the 80's - steroid users et all. He's in his 80's and alive & healthy. Where are the augmented oldies, perhaps under too many toxic waste dasies pushing up sod before their time, or shells of their former selves.

------------------
Edward F Sutton