I ask this question in sincerity; because I thought it would be an interesting Bible study topic. :)

If it's true that a person can be a true, born again Christian; and yet not be an SDA; then why be a Seventh Day Adventist?

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Christians, christians everywhere but why be SDA ?

Part-one

John 10:
22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

The ministry of Jesus is building toward the crisis of arresting the attention of the world, before calvary. He is earnestly teaching things that will remain on Earth to continue with renewed force after He returns to Heaven. His authority is continually being questioned in order to discredit Him and return to the traditions of the past by people who refuse to trust God .

Instead of defending His authority in a debate, Jesus tells them that the reason they do not believe is because they have not given themselves to God. They are not God’s spiritual children. All the spiritual children of God, also belong to Jesus. He leads them as fast as they can endure to be lead.
______________________________________________________
Proverbs 4:
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.
11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.
12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.
13 Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.

These first nine verses show the hope of the peoples of Earth who are responding internally to the Holy Spirit’s call and yearning, often times for what they know not to be the solution to their yearning. Then in God’s providence they are brought to recognize that in Jesus, they may have a Saviour and Redeemer and continual Lord of their lives.

Often they become so enamored with this accomplishment that they are content to stop in spiritual babyhood. Then having mortal leaders who espouse this creed or that creed, they find one they like or stay with the persons or creeds whereby they found Jesus in the first place and settle down to remain there. The spirit of yearning that is expressed with these words “more of Thee”, seems extinguished or at least no longer active.

But what is the danger of not continuing to follow the advancing truths expressed in the Bible ? Answer : the just and true and righteous are not the only ones walking about in this world. The next six verses express this danger, for it is a danger that is passable from one to another like germs from a contagious illness. Evil is spreadable, and Jesus and His teachings are the only cure. (1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:) When you obey truth, you are obeying Jesus for He is The Truth and the source of it .

14 ¶ Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.
16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

The path of the just keeps advancing, in advances closer and closer into harmony with that Celestial society to be revealed upon that perfect day; the day of His appearing and the going home to Heaven with Him of all who have gotten as close to Him in this world as possible.

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day
20 ¶ My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Jesus has only one Heaven to take His children to, only one faith that is consistent with all the Bible’s truth, there is only one Jesus Christ. He will not change His plans to suit anyone who decides they want to follow on their terms and not His terms. But all who seek Him, He works to bring them to full surrender to His terms of salvation. Many of these things are unknown to many He calls, so He has to teach and keep reconverting them step by step into each new truth as they can endure it.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

When you ignite a light to pierce dense darkness as a far reaching beacon, it is of necessity set upon the highest possible eminence to spread the light as wide a path as possible, and the closer you get to the center or source of the light; the more concentrated and brighter it becomes. That is also true for spiritual light. Jesus is the Light, the Second coming is the tower - seen by faith in the lessening distance, the eminence that alone is holy enough and tall enough to be worthy to support this is the Holy Scriptures - God’s revealed words.

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Edward F. Sutton

One important fact, however, is that going into a SDA church doesn't make one a Christian anymore than going into a garage makes one a car.

There's more to it than that!

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Adventists aren't THE true Christians, but the SDA church is the church with the TRUTH!

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

If several groups profess to be Christians, what test or tests does Jesus use to reveal the true verses the phoney ?

Or is their nothing to prove genuineness at all ? If there is such proofs of genuineness, how could anyone including us pass or fail it ?

I have a few things in mind, but want to post them later after more discussion.

Hint one of them is built of the same material as Satan's chain, but it's called by another name.

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Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited November 02, 2000).]

Amen Daryl & Cathy

What you guys said makes sense according to the line of theology in the Bible & SOP which describes this matter in more detail. Brother Ed, I will give your reply an amen too...even though I don't know for sure what you have in mind. One of the texts that makes for good discussion on this matter is Rev.18:4. Who will be the first?

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Since the verse offered is not posted i will post it here.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

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Edward F. Sutton

During the 1000 years on a desolated planet, Satan is bound by a chain made of this material, which even he can not break nor escape from. We even use it is our phraseology in talking with each other.

The material is forged according to the laws of sowing and reaping what is sown.

(Test # 1.)The material is circumstances. One of the tests of a true chriatian is circumstances. Do they imitate Jesus all the time, doing what He teaches during their circumstances? Motives and understanding information and acting upon it, create actions, what eventually shows? Circumstances show what's inside, even if only they & God see or if all the world sees.

Habakkuk 3:
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck.

16 ¶ When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.
17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

Zephaniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Circumstances are fashioned for self discovery; God allows us to discover in our selves what circumstances uncover, that we may bring ourselves to Jesus the refiner of people. That He may direct us how to co-operate with Him in the process of our redemption.

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Edward F. Sutton

Christians, christians everywhere but why be SDA ?
Part-two
Too often we are content to camp on mere stepping stones the night before a flood of water rains down engulfing our campsite in water and mud. We learn too late it was a series of stepping stones, not a campsite awaiting the Second Coming.

Ideologies and Churches are like that, we learn a little and get so comortable we forget to follow Jesus's onward trail and make present circumstances our final campsite; in violation of the progressive nature of Biblical Truths and Biblical warnings.

1 ¶ Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.[/b]
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to[b] establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Becoming a born again Christian happens to a person, because they begin & keep on responding and following God's call. He causes the rebirth as they respond and follow.

As they learn that an Ideology only obeys somewhat but disobeys Scripture where it suits them by their Ideological profession, the converted or "born again" individual is forced to follow Jesus further and leave that Ideological company and seek for that Ideology that by profession agrees with Jesus through the Bible's teachings.

They started out to find the Jesus of Scripture, unalloyed with human traditions and devisings and can not rest satisfied till they find Him.

Sabbath is a Divinely ordained cleaver to quickly focus the search in the direction He wants it to go in, with as few diversions as possible.

God had created an Ideology of old that agreed with Him in profession, but destroyed themselves. God has recreated a present day Ideology that in profession agrees with Him and His teachings.

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Edward F. Sutton

Profession is not the end all be all.
There is more to being a born again christian than that.

It involves an action, belief in this context is not verb or adjective, it's a noun, or better yet, a descriptive adjective. It denotes action, 'The devils believe, and tremble...', does this mean they will be saved?

I don't think so.
As Bro. Ed brought out iun his posts, a true believer is growimg, maturing, always looking for more truth and moving on as he/she learns it.
If a living thing quits growing, it dies. That is a simple fact of life.
God's true followers are continually growing.

I said it before, I'll say it again, being a member of a denomination will NOT save you, only Jesus the Christ can do that.

When we get to heaven, we won't be called SDA's, we'll be called the Children Of God, but, while here, we need to be something, something that denotes growth, truth, acceptance of the WHOLE WORD as our guide and stay.

So far, the only denomination I personally have found that fits this description is the SDA church.

My $.02.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

Does having the Sabbath Truth, the Sanctuary truth, etc., automatically promote the SDA Church to a position of having a corner on Truth?

Is it possible that there are some other truths that other denominations may have a corner on, in comparison with us?

This is a very honest, sincere question so please don't attack me over this! I get asked this question a lot by people in and out of our church; and the spirit with which you answer will tell what I want to know more than anything else.

I have an answer to this question; but I don't want to bias replies one way or the other; so I will give others a chance to reply first.

Just so you know; I don't question any of THE Truths our church has been entrusted with. But I am asking if we are a church that sticks to "THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD?"

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Notice Peter who is a member of the most enlightened body of faith on the planet, asking this question of God.

Luke 12:41 ¶ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

If we follow Jesus with the Spirit, attitude, motives, and actions of the faithful servant with either two, or five talents ...He will be pleased with us as a people.

If we hoard, hide, and hinder the one talent given He will teach us by experience what the Wrath of the Lamb is, and the voices of the lost people whom we disdained to reach out to, and reveal Christ in us as also, their hope of glory if they would follow Him also, will scream in the judgement "you knew and would not tell us" ... "you could have but would not help us."....The message being that because of our lack to appropriating truth ...through us it became no truth at all.

Many people of other faiths are crying unto the God of truth, I don't think He is deaf toward these people. Their system of Ideology is at doctrinal variance with Scripture, but perhaps like Ruth they are walking closer and closer to Boaz, leaving Moab behind as they hear God's call to the present truths of Scripture. Many of us came from them.

Is Baptism by immersion in error because Baptists profess it? No way, but their faith follows not on as a people, yet many of them as individuals as companies and tribes are walking toward Boaz.

Boaz in this illustration being those in the Remnant House of Rev. chapter 12 that honour God and deal uprightly with their fellow humans of whatever persuasion.

Is soul sleep in error because a body follows it, that do not profess to worship Jesus, yet shame lesser dedicated bodies by their door to door diligence. If Soul Sleep is true from Scripture it stands despite belief or unbelief. Jesus declared it to be true. Ask Lazarus.

The God who raised us up to believe Sabbath, Sanctuary, Investigative Judgement, SOP, etc ...grafted us in by His mercy. He is rightfully also privileged to graft us out at His disgression should we defy His mercy. Scripture & SOP truth is His to own ,and not ours to own. It is given in mercy for us to humbly follow. All souls are His. All truths are His also.

Baptism is a joint covenant between God & the candidate, it signifies a spiritual change. Our flesh is still the same as when we were of some other body of faith or of no faith. We are no better than they in our flesh. And unless we are like Him in Spirit, owing to our higher profession we can fall much lower in our practice of faith no longer according to advanced knowledge then they who have yet to see what has been shown us.

God has given us more than 27-talents, may we become humble as a people and not boast of their ownership; and put them out to the exchangers that their Owner may receive dividends plus them when He returns to reclaim His property.

If we as a Church stuck to the whole Word of God, the Second Coming would have happened long ago.

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Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited November 05, 2000).]

If ALL those professing to be God's children had stuck to the truth and accepted all of it as revealed to them, we would have been out of here a long time ago.

My only problem with this hindsight is, that if they had, I wouldn't be here.

There are those that would say that that would be a good thing.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

Gerry

Don't be so hard on yourself! (you made a good point about not being here if ALL of God's Word were followed.

Ed

I really enjoyed and appreciated your last post here. But I am too short on time tonight to comment more.

Tomorrow is another day!

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Hi there!

Arn't we the only ones with the 1844 message?
Are there others? Isn't that one of the main reasons we are what we are? Yes, but
believing that does not make us christians, of that I sure am aware
love
Barb

I guess God answered our question long ago .

He said come out of her MY people, that YE receive not of HER plagues.

Not all my children are the same age or in the same household, I guess not all of His are either.

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Edward F. Sutton

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidTBattler:
Does having the Sabbath Truth, the Sanctuary truth, etc., automatically promote the SDA Church to a position of having a corner on Truth?

Is it possible that there are some other truths that other denominations may have a corner on, in comparison with us?

...But I am asking if we are a church that sticks to "THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD?"

---

My answer: no.

Not because it isn't all there, but because the church has neglected and ignored that which is unpalatable. There are many issues that come up and divide the church which would not be there if the church were faithful to the whole message in the first place. For example, I believe that if the church were fully following God's directions in structure and organization, and in how we conducted our services, women's ordination would be a non-issue.

One couple in our church has attended services at the Yahweh church, and I'll have to admit, their description of those church services makes me wish to visit there myself. They are doing it the way God told us through Sister White that we should. Every service is a testimony service. And everyone participates. Each shares whatever the Lord has especially impressed on them during that week, whether a testimony, a song, a prayer, etc., and it is all done in perfect order, each in his/her turn. And even those who are not quite all there mentally are given their turn, while the rest listen patiently and attentively, regardless of how well or poorly they share their part.

Now this may not have so much to do with TRUTH per se, yet it is a part of the message we have been given, and like so much of that message, we prefer our own ways.

Gerry, there are some who would criticize you for your statement about not being here if the whole truth had been followed, saying that it is a selfish attitude, that we should be more concerned about God's feelings, having to endure seeing His people hurting. I do not agree. God knew even before He created this world exactly when He would come, and all the cirucumstance and happenings that would preceed this event. And He chose to allow it all to happen, by creating us with the freedom of choice, anyway. He knew what He was doing, and He feels that it is worth every bit of it. So why should I feel guilty for being glad that time lasted long enough for me to be here? I don't, not in the least. He knew me and wanted me long before I was born, and He will never regret the slightest bit of the delay. The delay is His choice, not ours. He doesn't have to put up with our feet-dragging. He could just say, "that's it! No more!" And the time will come when He will do that very thing, and He will be perfectly satisfied with the timing of it, and so will we.

Let's each do our best to make sure that we are not part of the problem, but part of the solution. And we can't do that by going off trying to do God's work according to our own ideas and in our own strength, or the world would be better off if we just remain self-satisfied and complacent and do nothing. We must surrender everything (our whole selves) to God and diligently seek His guidance in everything.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited November 06, 2000).]

Cathy

Any ideas on what we should be doing to be part of the solution?

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barb Loman:
Hi there!

Arn't we the only ones with the 1844 message?
Are there others? Isn't that one of the main reasons we are what we are? Yes, but
believing that does not make us christians, of that I sure am aware
love
Barb

---

Hi Barb

Any chance we could coax you to give a little more info with a reference or two? Especially the part: "Believing that does not make us christians?"

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidTBattler:
Cathy

Any ideas on what we should be doing to be part of the solution?

---

Just exactly what I already said: surrender everything, our whole lives and wills, and seek God's guidance in everything. If we are willing to do His will, He will make clear to us exactly what we should do. What He tells you to do is not necessarily going to be the same as what He tells me to do. He made us, and He knows what our strengths and weaknesses are, and where we will each be most effective.

I am a very quiet person, basically a loner. I can't handle group situations - they are very stressful for me. One on one interactions is the only kind I am any good with, and even at that, I seldom start conversations, except with the few very close friends with whom I share my deepest thoughts and feelings. So that is the kind of work God called me to do. He told me to visit my elderly shut-in neighbors and be their friend, and he brought a young man to live in our house, who needed to learn the same lessons about God that I had learned, and had the same kinds of emotional and spiritual battles to fight that I had already been through. And now that the condition of my health no longer allows me to do those things, he has not left me without something to do for others. Although I have little contact with non-Adventists these days, I find that I am still able to offer support and encouragement to those I do associate with. That is important too.

God calls others who do better in a group setting to work in groups. There is a place for each and every one of us, and I believe that one of the reasons for the failure of the church to fulfill its mission, aside from the lack of true conversion and consecration of the majority of members, is the failure to understand this fact, that not everyone can or should do all the same things in the same way.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

1. What is a Christian? Some who gives themselves to Jesus and follows Him till a comfortable stopping place is found.
2. What is a Seventh Day Adventist Christian? The same one who gave themselves to Jesus and follows Him, but can not find a stopping place where they are satisfied with too much Jesus and His teachings; so till they die they just kept following Him & He kept teaching and leading and they kept responding, surrendering & following.
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"All His life, Jesus had lived in the presence of His Father. The Spirit of God had been His constant guide and support. He always gave God the glory for His works on earth, and said, "I can of Mine own self do nothing." John 5:30. {SJ 101.3}

We can do nothing of ourselves. It is only by relying on Christ for all our strength that we can overcome, and do His will on earth. We must have the same simple,
childlike trust in Him that He had in His Father. Christ said, "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. {SJ 101.4}

The terrible night of agony for the Saviour began as they neared the garden. It seemed that the presence of God, which had been His support, was no longer with Him. He was beginning to feel what it was to be shut out from His Father. {SJ 102.1}

Christ must bear the sins of the world. As they were now laid upon Him, they seemed more than He could endure. The guilt of sin was so terrible, He was tempted to fear that God could no longer love Him. {SJ 102.2}

As He felt the awful displeasure of the Father against evil, the words were forced from Him, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." {SJ 102.3}

Near the gate of the garden, Jesus had left all His disciples except Peter, James, and John, and He had gone into the garden with these three. They were His most earnest followers, and had been His closest companions. But He could not bear that even they should witness the suffering He was to endure. He said to them: {SJ 102.4}

"Tarry ye here, and watch with Me." Matthew 26:38. {SJ 102.5}

He went a short distance from them, and fell prostrate upon the ground. He felt that by sin He was being separated from the Father. The gulf between them appeared so broad, so black, so deep, that He shuddered before it. {SJ 102.6}

Christ was not suffering for his own sins, but for the sins of the world. He was feeling the displeasure of God against sin as the sinner will feel it in the great judgment day. {SJ 102.7}

In His agony, Christ clung to the cold ground. From His pale lips came the bitter cry, "O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Matthew 26:39. {SJ 102.8}

For an hour Christ bore this terrible suffering alone. Then He came to the disciples, hoping for some word of sympathy. But no sympathy awaited Him, for they were asleep. They awoke at the sound of His voice, but they hardly knew Him, His face was so changed by anguish. Addressing Peter, He said: {SJ 103.1}

"Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest not thou watch one hour?" Mark 14:37. {SJ 103.2}

Just before He bent His footsteps to the garden, Christ had said to the disciples, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night." They had given Him the strongest assurance that they would go with Him to prison and to death. And poor, self-sufficient Peter had added, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Mark 14:27, 29. {SJ 103.3}

But the disciples trusted to themselves. They did not look to the Mighty Helper as Christ had counselled them to do. So when the Saviour was most in need of their sympathy and prayers, they were found asleep. Even Peter was sleeping. {SJ 103.4}

And John, the loving disciple who had leaned upon the breast of Jesus, was asleep. Surely the love of John for his Master should have kept him awake. His earnest prayers should have mingled with those of his loved Saviour in the time of His great agony. The Redeemer had spent whole nights in praying for His disciples, that their faith might not fail in the hour of trial. Yet they could not remain awake with Him even one hour. {SJ 103.5}

Had Christ now asked James and John, "Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" they would not have answered so readily as they did before, "We can." Mark 10:38, 39. {SJ 103.6}

The Saviour's heart was filled with pity and sympathy at the weakness of His disciples. He feared that they could not endure the test which His suffering and death would bring upon them. {SJ 104.1}

Yet He did not sternly reprove them for their weakness. He thought of the trials that were before them, and said: {SJ 104.2}

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation." {SJ 104.3}

He made an excuse for their failure in duty toward Him: "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41. What an example of the tender, loving pity of the Saviour! {SJ 104.4}

Again the Son of God was seized with superhuman agony. Fainting and exhausted, He staggered back, and prayed as He had prayed before: {SJ 104.5}

"O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." Matthew 26:42. {SJ 104.6}

The agony of this prayer forced drops of blood from His pores. Again He sought the disciples for sympathy, and again He found them sleeping. His presence aroused them. They looked upon His face with fear, for it was stained with blood. They could not understand the anguish of mind which His face expressed. {SJ 104.7}

The third time He sought the place of prayer. A horror of great darkness overcame Him. He had lost the presence of His Father. Without this, He feared that in His human nature He could not endure the test. {SJ 104.8}

The third time He prays the same prayer as before. Angels long to bring relief, but it may not be. The Son of God must drink this cup, or the world will be lost forever. He sees the helplessness of man. He sees the power of sin. The woes of a doomed world pass in review before Him. {SJ 104.9}

He makes the final decision. He will save man at any cost to Himself. He has left the courts of Heaven, where all is purity, happiness, and glory, to save the one lost sheep, the one world that has fallen by transgression, and He will not turn from His purpose. His prayer now breathes only submission: {SJ 105.1}

"If this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." {SJ 105.2}

The Saviour now falls dying to the ground. No disciple is there, to place his hand tenderly beneath his Master's head, and bathe that brow, marred indeed more than the sons of men. Christ is alone; of all the people there are none with Him. {SJ 105.3}

But God suffers with His Son. Angels behold the Saviour's agony. There is silence in Heaven. No harp is touched. Could men have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {SJ 105.4}

A mighty angel now comes to the side of Christ. He lifts the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and points toward Heaven. He tells Him that He has come off victor over Satan. As the result, millions will be victors in His glorious kingdom. {SJ 105.5}

A heavenly peace rests upon the Saviour's blood-stained face. He has borne that which no human being can ever bear; for He has tasted the sufferings of death for every man. {SJ 105.6}

Following Him you became a Christian, continuing to follow Him; He taught you how to become a Seventh Day Adventist. In the near future every man, woman, and child will be presented with this path to follow or decline. To follow it or reject it's path will forever settle the question asked that began this thread.

John 21:
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Hebrews 11:
32 ¶ And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy : ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:
1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 ¶ Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Follow Jesus as close as He will let you, modern religion is but a faint glimmer of what it could be. Ism's are the signiture of where you are at, the Remnant faith is the aim for this world of where we ought be going. For the faith to be a Remnant it must be part of the original faith it is but a remnant of. Such faith warned every creature under the sun in that generation for love of the Victor in Gethsemene. Till we do the same perhaps we are not so Advent seeking Adventists?

To be God's child comes from "new birth" to be His friend comes from this continually .

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

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Edward F. Sutton

Quote by Cathy:

"Although I have little contact with non-Adventists these days, I find that I am still able to offer support and encouragement to those I do associate with. That is important too."

Thankyou Cathy

If I had to vote for the best post on this thread; I'd give first prize to you. Your positive christian outlook, and practical comments are encouraging to read. It can be hard to be positive when health concerns are in the equation. Truly, we are SDA's, because "The joy of the Lord is our strength." (Neh.8:10).

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Quote by brother Ed:

"What is a Seventh Day Adventist Christian? The same one who gave themselves to Jesus and follows Him, but can not find a stopping place where they are satisfied with too much Jesus and His teachings; so till they die they just kept following Him & He kept teaching and leading and they kept responding, surrendering & following."
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Thanks for all your efforts in your last post Ed.

I don't know if you have thought of the fact that you could have just stopped at the above quote I have posted from your last quote. It is complete; and reflects the practical side of this post's first question.

We are indeed SDA's, because we try to teach our people to be like the Bereans, (Acts 17:11), and we want to inspire others to continue to "grow in grace," learning more of Jesus, and sharing more of Him with others.

Have you any further thoughts on one of the last verses you quoted, (Heb.12:15), and how this particular verse applies to the question first asked in this post?

I know that other denominations have their share of troubles with this "root of bitterness" part - but why would an SDA have these same troubles as say, a Baptist does in this area, if they have the Truth?

Please bear with me in this thread. I am deliberately playing "devil's advocate," and not actually reflecting all or any of my true beliefs in the questions I am posing. These are questions that are asked me by a lot of people.

I appreciate your diligence in providing us with some answers in this direction.

"The eternal God has drawn the line of distinction between the saints and the sinners. The unconverted and the converted. The TWO CLASSES do not blend into each other imperceptively; like the colours of the rainbow. They are as distinct as midday and midnight." (TM 87)

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited November 10, 2000).]

Lack of diligence to internally and externally follow the teachings of Scripture has lead to, first a proliferation of various ideologies of faith though there is One Lord, and One Spirit. This has occurred and reoccurred over centuries. This has worked to attempt to forever ban the unity among those who worship Him, for which Jesus prayed after the First Communion supper. Jesus will still create Scriptural unity among His spiritual children on Earth, despite these impediments.

Secondly this lack of diligence to internally and externally follow the teachings of Scripture has lead to, a proliferation of various divisions of faith and fellowship among the children of "the good woman of Revelation chapter 12 also.

These roots are many, throughout Christendom, but have One cure.

The Bible's Author inspired the multi-faceted answer.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The first work is heart work, the second is action that follows that heart work. Jesus keeps moving the heart work closer and closer to the final preparations for the Second Coming.

Is it possible that a person can be born again, then refuse to follow where Jesus continues to lead them and looses their first love because they are lead to Scripture's teachings and they decide they don't want to follow Jesus in this area?

Would it constitute the end of their hope, or the beginning of their struggle? That having struggled and surrendered not to themselves, but to Jesus. Through the surrender to the teachings of Scripture by observing or (obeying from the heart and through the actions). They have begun to realize what it means to grow up in Christ.

When a baby is first born his or her first struggle is to breath, then to cry, then to latch on and nurse. Gravity and cold are new things to the baby, which the baby can not compensate for. The parents have to do for the baby what it does not know how to do, nor is able to do or the baby can not survive long enough to grow and mature .

Breathing, crying, feeding are fine for a while; until more physical & mental growth occurs that's all that is expected of the baby.

Soon however comes the time of feeding yourself, dressing yourself, walking, potty training, school, puberty, High School, College, Marriage, kids of your own, the cycle of life coming full circle. Physical life moves on, but so does spiritual life. Getting trapped in an immature stage of physical life is usually not a choice.

Spiritually settling down short of the Second Coming usually is a choice. Seventh Day Adventism is the Ideology prepared with the best of all other Christian Ideologies included and additional ones of it's own, for the purpose of preparing you to fulfill the expectations of Jesus, as He leads you ever closer to the Second Coming.

More later focusing on practical logistics and the opening question of this thread.
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Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited November 10, 2000).]

What Ed posted made me think of the rich young man who came to Jesus saying that he had kept the Commandments of God from his youth up. When it came to the real test of practicality, however, he walked away after Christ told him to go and sell what he has and come and "Follow Me" for he was very rich.

It is interesting to note that this person could have been the 13th disciple.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Hi Daryl,

Nice to "see" you, when do we get video online cell phones ?

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Edward F. Sutton

It is nice to see you on here also.

Pastor Andrew is on here right now also.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

After the apostasy and death of Judas, he (the rich young ruler) would have been the 12 th disciple and they all would have been hand picked and personally trained by Jesus Himself.

Too bad He didn't change bank accounts. Jesus is a more secure banker, the compound intrest & dividends never stop.

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Edward F. Sutton

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
[B]What Ed posted made me think of the rich young man who came to Jesus saying that he had kept the Commandments of God from his youth up. When it came to the real test of practicality, however, he walked away after Christ told him to go and sell what he has and come and "Follow Me" for he was very rich."

Brother Daryl

You made a good point here. But, here I go again...

I wonder...does giving "all" make us a Christian in light of 1 Cor.13:3:

"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned; if I have not love; I am nothing."

Apparently, even if you give your life, and all your possessions; you can still be outside the realm of being a Christian?

Well, I have waited quite a while for an answer to my last question above; but that's OK. I have a little something to enclose that answers my first question in this thread of "Are SDA's THE True Christians?"

May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word...I learned the following from SDA's and this explains in part why I am a Seventh Day Adventist. Truly, our church has a message of salvation!

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [people] unto Me...” John 12:32

It was literally true that when Jesus was lifted up upon the cross that He drew all kinds of people unto Him: good, bad, and indifferent.

The weary crowd gathered about the foot of the cross on that dread day, are good examples of people from all ages who have looked upon the cross to either receive or reject.

There were the two criminals, one hardened in his guilt, the other grasping at a last minute hope. There were the rulers and the priests, ridiculing the crucified One in their gross spiritual pride and self-sufficiency. Then the vulgar soldiers, with their course and cruel jests, cast lots for the seamless robe of Christ. A crowd of people were milling back and forth, beating their breasts, some scoffing, others uncertain, as they witness the agony of God.

But, then there is the Centurion, forced by what he had seen, to loudly exclaim: “Truly, this was the Son Of God.” And standing afar off from the cross, as if unable to bear the dreadful sight, are the many women who had ministered to the needs of the Savior while He was in Galilee. And here and there, His bewildered disciples, torn between loyalty to their stricken Master and the fear of the crowd. What fears, what anguish, what hopes raced through their benumbed minds? Would there be some final demonstration of divine power on their behalf? And there, near the cross, stands the mother of Jesus, weeping softly for her Son, Who tenderly commits her to the care of His beloved disciple.

In what area of your life have you rejected the cross? What anguish, what needs, what hopes do you need to take to the foot of the cross today? How would your life be different if you did?

Prayer: Dear Jesus, Man of Calvary, my heart fills with wonder and adoration as I contemplate the love that brought You to the earth, and took You to the cross for us, your “online children,”...here at MSDAOL.:

”Jesus keep us near the cross; there a precious fountain
Free to all a healing stream; flows from Calvary’s mountain
Near the cross a trembling soul; love and mercy found us
There the bright and morning star; sheds it’s beams around us

Near the cross O Lamb of God! Bring it’s scenes before us
Help us walk from day to day; with it’s shadows o’er us

Near the cross we’ll watch and wait; hoping, trusting ever
Till we reach the golden strand; just beyond the river!

In the cross, in the cross: Be our glory ever. Till our troubled soul shall find
rest beyond the river.”

As we enter another New Year, let us remember that “God crowneth the year with His goodness…” (Ps.65:11).

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Soul winning is soul loving.
see 1 Thes.5:14-15).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited December 29, 2000).]

May SDA's merely be the firstfruits of all the true Christians (and soon to be-Christians)upon the Earth. Soon to be harvested.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited January 02, 2001).]

Having your name on the books of the Adventist church doesn't make you a true Christian than walking into a garage makes you a true car.

_____________________________________________
"For God so loved Daryl Fawcett that He gave His only
Begotten Son that....."

Daryl

"The church is God's fortress which He holds in a revolted world." A.A.11.

"The soul that is yielded to Christ is God's fortress, His city of refuge which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it than His own." D.A.324.

"The church, every individual disciple of the Master, is Heaven's appointed channel for the revelation of God to men." M.B.40.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited February 15, 2001).]

for possible further discussion.