Dear AB,

Again, and as usual, thank you for those well though out words regarding the chronology of last day events. I agree with you that the loud cry follows the shaking during the sunday crisis.

However, my reading of chapters 9-16 in the little Red Book entitled "Last Day Events" (which I just read again this sabbath) serves to convince me that the natural disasters which move politicians and pastors to legislate and enforce the catholic sabbath is the event that triggers the fulfillment of the remaining events:

1. Economy choaking natural disasters
2. Pastors and politicians unite
3. Sunday laws enacted and enforced
4. Sabbath keepers tried and tested
5. Judgment of the living begins and continues to the close of probation
6. God begins numbering and sealing the 144,000 which continues until the close of probation
7. The saints who have been sealed immediately begin proclaiming the 3AM's messages and the testimony of the True Witness
8. The preaching of the sealed saints causes a shaking of adventism which contiunes until the church is purified
9. The shaken and sifted adventists will leave the church some will join the ranks of the opposition and become our most bitter enemies
10. When the church is purified the influence of the latter rain empowers the growing number of sealed saints to declare the three warning messages more perfectly
11. The latter rain swells to a loud cry as more and more sealed saints add their voices to the warning messages
12. A lull in persecution allows the sealed saints to proclaim the warning messages with relative freedom great numbers will embrace the truth most of them to suffer martyrdom some to be number and sealed
13. The influence of spiritualism gains momentum until finally Satan personates the second coming of Christ
14. Eventually everyone everywhere will decide for or against the seal of God and then probation will close

I believe this is the chronology that is spelled out in the Ellen White quotations compiled in the little publication called "Last Day Events."

My studies of the latter rain have led to me to believe that it is more a consequence than a cause. That's not to say that it isn't also a cause. But I believe it will be the direct result of what happens after the experience of the investigative jugdment of the living. And that is - each person as they are found worthy of eternal life will have their past history of sins blotted out and they will be unable to recall or remember them. This dynamic result will give them a new experience which will add power to their testimony. This is what we call the latter rain. It's very similar to the cause and effect experience that the early church enjoyed under the early rain.

What do you think?

Mike

How does this sound? Take all the direct references from Bible & SOP, and then the indirect references that are alluded to Bible & SOP and story board them into a workable understanding of what inspiration is trying to implant in us reguarding this subject. The Former & Latter Rain was not water but the presence of The Person of The Holy Ghost Himself.

I hope this is a tantilizing offer, and will begin to add the references to the table.

Direct references

"Former Rain" 4 - texts (Bible)
Jeremiah 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

"Former Rain" - hits on EGW search engine - 66 hits

"Latter Rain" - 9 texts (Bible)
Deuteronomy 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Proverbs 16:15 In the light of the king’s countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.

Jeremiah 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore’s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Jeremiah 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Zechariah 10:1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

"Latter Rain" - 279 hits on EGW search engine.

Please suggest indirect references (like "times of refreshing" ect.

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Edward F Sutton

Was it not Ellen White who said, "Why do I believe the Bible? Because I have found it to be the voice of God to my soul." S.C.112. She believed that "The Bible is God's voice to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears. If we realized this, with what awe would we open God's word, and with what earnestness would we search its precepts." 6 T 393.
"Read the Bible," she said, "And regard it as the voice of God speaking directly to you." 7 T 205. In other words, "The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not merely written, but spoken." MH122. She would urge the ministers to "Keep the voice of the Bible ever before the people." For,"From the first record of creation to the closing promise, we are reading of God's works and listening to His voice." S.C.88.

It was her constant burden to tell our people to hear the voice of God in the Scriptures. "Let the word of God speak to the people. Let them hear the voice of Him whose word can renew the soul unto eternal life." C.O.L.40.

How important it is to receive the Scriptures as the Word of God to us, not merely written but spoken! To believe it because it is the truth, because God says it and then our faith is reckoned unto us for righteousness! This is how we "attain to righteousness." Rom.9:30;4:13. Thank the Lord! Praise the Lord! The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC!

"Abraham believed God and it was counted unto Him for righteousness... But it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed unto him, but for us also, to whom it will be imputed if we believe Him who raised Jesus from the dead." Rom.4:3,23,24.

Whatever we read in the Scriptures, we are to receive it as the voice of God to us and say, "Lord, That is so," and our believing God is counted unto us for righteousness, for "From the heart man believeth unto righteousness." Rom.10:10. Whatever God says we believe it because it is the truth, because He cannot lie, and our faith is reckoned unto us for righteousness! In other words, the Lord declares His righteousness unto all and upon all them that believe. Rom.3:21,22. Believe what? His word. "This is the word of faith which we preach." Rom.10:8,17. Not only is our faith counted unto us for righteousness, but the word effectually works in us who believe! 1 Thess. 2: 13.

The Lord says that "We are justified by His blood." What do we say? "Amen, that is so," and our faith is counted unto us for righteousness! This is what it means to be "justified by faith." Rom.5:1. Then "We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom.5:1. He says that "We are reconciled unto God through the blood of His cross." (Col.1:20) What do we say? "Amen Lord, that is so." He also says that "We are sanctified by His own blood." (Heb.13:12) What do we say? "Amen, Lord that is so." And our faith in counted unto us for righteousness! Thank the Lord! That is how a man is made and remains righteous! Praise the Lord!

The Lord says, "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." What do we say? "Amen, that is so." Our affections are fixed upon the word, the mind is in subjection to the word and our faith is counted unto us for righteousness. It is the same with every line of the Scriptures. There is salvation in every line of the Scriptrues as long as we receive the word in faith. The reception of the Word is the reception of Christ Himself. John 6:63; 2 Cor.3:17; Rev.19:13. Not only does God count our faith for righteousness, but the Lord has promised to give us understanding in all things if we receive His word just as He speaks it. 2 Tim.2:7.

The Scriptures can be a continual feast. This is the teaching of righteousness according to righgteousness, according to God's own idea of it. Feed upon the word, receive it as the voice of God to your soul and believe it implicitly with the simple faith of a little child and the Lord declares His righteousness unto you and upon you who believes. "Your are right" He says, and you are right, too. The Lord says so! Amen. Rom.3:21,22.

Is the righteousness which is of God by faith found in the book of Genesis? Absolutely. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen.1:1. As we accept this declaration as the voice of God speaking to us directly and believe it because it is the truth, because God says it, our faith is counted unto us for righteousness! Amen, thank the Lord. The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC but we dont understand it! There is righteousness and salvation in every line of the Scriptures. "The end of your faith is the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:9. "Faith comes by hearing the word of God." Rom.10:17. "After you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." Eph.1:13. Believing unto righteousness! Rom.10:10. "Continue in the faith." Col.1:23.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 12, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: Part 23

When Jesus tells you and me we are blind, the thing for us to do is to say: 'Lord, we are blind.' (And your believing Him is counted unto you for righteousness) He told those folks they were blind, and they were blind; but they said it was not so. It was so. If they had confessed their blindness they would have seen God in that man's healing from his blindness.
Well, then, brethren, the thing for us to do is to come square up to the Laodicean message, and say that every word He says is so. When He says you and I are wretched, tell him, 'It is so, I am wretched; miserable, it is so, I am miserable; poor, it is so; I am poor, a perfect beggar, I shall never be anything else in the world; blind, I am blind, and shall never be anything else; naked, that is so; and I do not know it.' And then I will say to Him every day and every hour, 'Lord that is all so; but, oh, instead of my wretchedness, give me Thine own satisfaction; instead of my misery, give me Thine own comfort; instead of my poverty, supply all Thine own riches; instead of my blindness, be Thou my sight; instead of my nakedness, oh do Thou clothe me with Thine own righteousness; and what I know not, Lord, teach Thou me.' (Congregation: 'Amen.')

Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty at all in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent, and there will be no lack of repentance. The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed what the Lord has told us is the truth. "With the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom.10:10.

When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something that will satisfy me, and I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it; and if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness. Any moment that I have not Him it is only wretchedness; and any moment that I have not His comfort it is only misery; any moment that I have not absolute dependence upon His unsearchable riches--the unsearchable riches of Christ--I am utterly poor, a complete beggar; and every moment that I do not see and confess that I am blind, and have Him as my sight, I am in sin; He says so. John 9:39-41.

Now you say you see; therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to clothe me, why so certainly I am ruined, utterly ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, 'Now I know so much,' no, I do not know that at all. 1 Cor.8:2. Well, then, the thing that I am to do, is to say, 'Lord, I do not know it; I depend upon You to teach me everything, even to teach me that I am wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, and that I need all these things. And when I tell Him all that, He will give all I need. He will do it. THAT IS OUR SITUATION.

For it is written, "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness... Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, but for us also, to whom it will be imputed, if we believe on Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." Rom.4:3,23,24. For, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness." Rom.10:10.
A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.166,167.

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Thank you AB, for that last post. It reminds me of what Solomon told the Lord, whe He as Solomon what he would like to have. Solomon said he was like a little child who didn't know how to go out or come in. I have told the Lord the same thing. We have to admit that we don't know anything before we can learn.

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
_________________________

Linda

Thanks Linda. Unless we receive the word of God with the simple faith of a little child, we cannot attain to righteousness, (Mark 10:15; Rom.9:30-32) for, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness." Rom.10: 10. "He who thinks he knows something, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2. We believe the Word and it is counted unto us for righteousness and the Lord gives us understanding in all things. 2 Tim.2:7. We know nothing except what He tells us in His word. Therefore we have no wisdom but what He gives. "He is made unto us wisdom..." 1 Cor.1:30. "He alone is wise." Rom.16:27. Faith, then, is righteousness! We believe what God says and we are declared righteous! That is the worth of God's word! And let no man say that he has no faith for the word says that "God has given to every man the measure of faith." Rom.12:3. And "Faith comes by hearing the word." Rom.10:17. What is it that was counted unto Abraham for righteousness? It, i-t, it! His believing God! Gen.15:4-6. That is the righteousness of God. That is how Abraham became righteous and that is how we become and remain righteous! Thank the Lord; Praise the Lord! Rom.4:3,23,24.

P/S Therefore it is written that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth (the word) in unrighteousness (in unbelief)" for "in the Gospel (the Word) is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith." Rom.1:17. Faith in the word is counted for righteousness! Therefore we are justified simply by believing God, by believing just what He says and as He says it, whatever He says, for "he who does not believe God has made Him a liar," and that is unrighteousness! 1 John 5:10.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 13, 2001).]

I would like to know whether it is not so, that when the Lord says a thing He is right? Then when I say "that is so," He says, "I am right." Rom.4:3. What in the world hinders me from being right? Can you tell? I will say it again: when the Lord says a thing, is He right? Yes. He is right in saying it; then when I say "That is so," when I say, "Amen," and He says, "You are right," then am I not right? Yes. Am I not right just as certainly as He is? Certainly. Can even He say I am wrong? No. He says a thing, and I say the same thing; can He say I am wrong? No. Well then, when we are in such a situation that the Lord Himself cannot say that you and I are wrong, I would like to know what in the world is the reason we are not right? And believing God puts us in just that situation as was Abraham. His believing God was counted unto him for righteousness. Gen.15:6. I would like to know what can keep us out of Heaven, then? What can keep us out of the kingdom of God, then? The only thing that can keep us out of the Kingdom of God is to tell the Lord that He lies; and if you and I will stop that business we will get into Heaven all right! That is just what people need to do, to stop telling the Lord that He lies. "He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar." 1 John 5:10. But whoever would make God a liar is a liar himself, and liars cannot get into the Kingdom of God. Then the thing for us to do is to stop lying. Let us quit right now. Stop lying. No difference what the Lord says, we say, "That is so."

Dont you see this is the whole story, that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures. For God says it, don't He? Well, when God says it, and we say it, then we are righteous, that is the end of it. God said that to Abraham; Abraham said, "Amen, that is so, I take that." So this shows that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures, in every thing God Says. The story is simple enough, the mischief of it is, though, that we allow so much of Satan's devices to get in to mystify it. That is the mischief of it. The Lord does not want that, He wants it to be just as simple as He has told it; and He has told it so simply that a little child can understand it and receive it. And you who do not receive it as a little child, cannot receive it. So I say again, that it is no difference what God says or when He says it; whatever He says, we, like Abraham, say "Amen, Lord I believe that; that is so." Then He says "You are right." And you are right too. Rom.4:3,23,24. Amen, thank the Lord, praise the Lord. A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.B. p.378,379.

This is the teaching of righteousness according to righteousness, according to God's own idea of His righteousness, as it was presented at the General Conference in session in 1893. This is the latter rain, the loud cry of the third angel which is to lighten the earth with its glory! The teaching of righteousness according to righteousness. Rom.4:3,23,24. Amen!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 13, 2001).]

Dear AB,

Again, thank you for the posts on righteousness by faith. Personally I agree with J&W's conclusions. But their style does not touch my heart. It's way too argumentative for my taste. I wonder if that's one of the reasons why Ellen White told them to watch their words? I know we're not supposed to judge the message by the messenger, but I can almost sympathize with the people back then who struggled with what J&W were presenting.

But like I said, I agree with their basic conclusions. And it is those truths that I find winsome and endearing. It's just that I prefer to learn them in a winsome and endearing way too. And I thank God for books like Steps to Christ.

Do you really believe the latter rain will begin to fall just because we believe and teach this message? What about all the other things that must happen too? I believe there is the potential for disappointment if go around thinking all we have to do is preach this message and then Jesus will return.

What is more important - to occupy or to relocate? Is being a Christian all about going to heaven? Or does it also include experiencing peace of mind here and now? Please don't think I'm saying going to heaven isn't important. Because it is. It's our ultimate hope. But there is danger in getting all caught up with going to heaven if we forget to enjoy being a Christian now. Do you know what I mean?

We may not go to heaven before we die of old age. Am I a heretic for saying that? I hope not. Can I be at peace now even if, like Peter, I knew I was going to die before going to heaven? I certainly hope so. Didn't Jesus say that the kingdom is within us now?

I believe getting all worked up by thinking all we have to do is preach the long lost messsage of J&W then Jesus will send the latter rain and soon there after we'll be out of here. That doesn't seem balanced to me. And I think it's the perfect set up for frustration and failure.

I believe the balance is best experienced by believing that Jesus could possibly return in our lifetime, especially as we cooperate with the conditions - believe and preach the truth as it is in Jesus. In the mean time, we can enjoy the peace and bliss of heaven now as we occupy earth unto the honor and glory of God seeking to save the lost according to our God-given gifts and talents.

I didn't mean to imply that you are guilty of the things I've written here. But I do know people who cannot be at peace now because they want to be in heaven so bad. And they get all worked up about this and that idea so that life is miserable for them and the people they come in contact with. I hope that doesn't happen to any of us.

Mike

Mike, I think we need to pay more attention to what God says! It was said that in 1893, when this message was being presented, that minds were confused! Why? "Because the blessings were not lived up to." "That which was LIGHT FROM HEAVEN has been called excitement." 1 SM 130. There were those who even "pronounced THE MINISTRATION OF HIS HOLY SPIRIT a species of fanaticism."

Did you take the time to read all of this, Mike? It sounds like you are saying that Jone's speech is confusing when the Lord said through Sister White that these lectures were "the workings of the Spirit in clear and unmistakable lines." Clear and unmistakable lines! In fact, so clear that they were then under obligation to believe, the Spirit told them!!!

What is the message? "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Rom.4:3. In other words God declared him righteous simply because he believed what He told him. Abraham was still a Gentile too! Rom.4:9-11; Gen.15:4-6. Therefore, we, like Abraham, believe what God says and we get the same results. Rom.4:23,24. "Faith is reckoned unto us for righteousness."

Yes it is the message that will prepare a people for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in latter rain power because God said so! Sister White warned that when the Lord shall let His light shine again the Holy Spirit will be falling all around us and we will not know it! And many will be quick to ridicule the message and call it excitement and fanaticism again. 1 SM 143.

"The story is simple enough, the mischief of it is, though, that we allow so much of Satan's devices to get in to mystify it. That is the mischief of it. But the Lord does not want that, He wants it to be just as simple as He has told it; and He has told it so simply that a child can understand it and receive it. And you who do not receive it as a little child, cannot receive it. So I say again, that it is no difference what God says or when He says it; whatever He says, we, like Abraham, say, "Amen, Lord, I believe that; that is so." Then He says "You are right." And you are right, too." A.T Jones, 1893 G.C.B. p.379.

"With the heart man believeth unto righteousness." Rom.10:10.

About these lectures, she also said this: "God has wrought in a remarkable manner; and let no one venture to say this is not the Spirit of God. It is just that which we are authorized to believe and pray for." 1 SM 130.

You say you prefer to get it from somewhere else when God says that this message of righteousness was made so simple to understand that it was just as simple as receiving the alphabet. After hearing these two brethren, Sister White said: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we dont understand it." Manuscript 1, May 11, 1889.

You say there is danger in overemphasizing some truth at the expense of other truths just as important. Have you ever considered this statement made in 1892, at the time when she said that the latter rain had already begun in the message of the righteousness of Christ? "One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." RH, Dec.23, 1892. This statement speaks for itself! In other words we cannot separate the Sabbath from the righteousness of faith. God says "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." (Deut.5:14) Like Abraham, we believe that and our believing God is counted unto us for righteousness. It is the same with every doctrine we hold as truth. The Lord says "The dead know not anything." Ecc.9:5,6. We, like Abraham, believe, and it is counted unto us for righteousness. In other words, the righteusness of God is manifested or revealed upon all and unto all them that believe the word. Eph.1:13; 1 Thess.2:13; Rom.9:30-32; Heb.4:3.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 13, 2001).]

I think a good way to look for what we need to do to receive the Latter Rain, is to look at what the disciples were doing at Pentecost. They put aside all their differences and arguments and prayed together. They were united in one spirit and in one accord in the upper room, and then the Holy Spirit was poured out. I believe there is something we can do now to hasten the fall of the Latter Rain. We can model the actions of the apostles. I believe that if we sit around and just enjoy being Christians, we will be bypassed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. We are to shake off our Laodicean condition and pray unceasingly for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. We also must be in one accord. I'm not saying everyone will join us, but God is gathering together His group of faithful now, no matter how large or small, and they will be the ones to take the gospel to the world with power. Like AB said, it should be our one prevailing interest, above all others. Yes, we may be afraid of another disappointment, but we must learn from the first one if we want to go home. I want to go home more than anything in the world. That's the important part, nothing in this world can hold me.

God bless,
Wendy

[This message has been edited by WendyForsyth (edited March 13, 2001).]