Mike, I will be honest with you. When you say that you agree with their basic premise and then add, "but"... I have a problem with that.

I believe the Lord has a controversy with those who are saying "but," when they read the message He has sent to them through His delegated messengers.

It is like they are saying to God: Let me tell you how to teach Your message! But God says to them: "If you reject God's delegated messengers, you reject Christ." T.M.97.

If we continue to find fault with their message, we will never know what the truth is. "How long will you hate and despise the messengers of God's righteousness? GOD HAS GIVEN THEM HIS MESSAGE. They bear the word of the Lord." Ibid, 97.

"God saves the humble person."

We show humility and submission to God when we have implicit faith in the word of God and in the messages He sends through His chosen messengers!

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

AB, does Jones or Waggoner address Rom 7:18 and 20? If we agree with the idea Paul is talking about actually comitting a sin then how we do explain these two verses? It would seem that he is blaming sin on sin.

Mike,

Yes, you are converted.

looks like this is your new hang out

D

Surprise, surprise. Yeah, I have been enjoying this forum since a year or more ago. Do you have any thoughts on Rom 7:18 and 20?

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

This entire passages runs along the same vein of thought introduced in Romans 7, or at least it seems that way to me. Taken together these two scriptures teach that born again believers, who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, do not act out the unholy desires of their sinful flesh nature. Which is also what John wrote:

1 John
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We cannot read what these texts teach and still maintain the idea that Paul said he is guilty of doing the very things he didn't want to do. It just doesn't say that. He very clearly wrote - "[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." How can he say it any plainer?

AB:
I do not accept the concept that Jones and Waggoner are infallible. I also do not place their writings on the same level as the SOP. I believe that God was using them to express truth for the time and situation. I also believe that they were preaching righteousness by faith where as the majority of the brethren were teaching a works oriented salvation. So in comparison Jones and Waggoners material was closer to the truth than the rest of the brethren.

So when you quote Jones and Waggoner as a standard of truth I need to take it home and study it for myself and weigh it out. I hope we can agree upon that.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
This entire passages runs along the same vein of thought introduced in Romans 7, or at least it seems that way to me. Taken together these two scriptures teach that born again believers, who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, do not act out the unholy desires of their sinful flesh nature. Which is also what John wrote:

1 John
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We cannot read what these texts teach and still maintain the idea that Paul said he is guilty of doing the very things he didn't want to do. It just doesn't say that. He very clearly wrote - "[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." How can he say it any plainer?