It has been suggested, in other places, that the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary. And that since the earthly was anointed by working from the MHP backwards to the outer court that Jesus would have done the same thing when He anointed the heavenly sanctuary. And since Jesus didn't shed His blood wherewith to anoint the heavenly sanctuary until AD 31 that it is clear He waited until then to anoint the MHP, the HP and the outer court, in that order.

After His resurrection and before His ascension 40 days later, during His special trip to heaven (to hear His Father's acceptance of His sacrifice), Jesus would have entered the MHP to anoint it with His blood, then back to the HP to anoint it with His blood, and then back to earth (the outer court) to anoint it with His blood. Thus type would have fulfilled antitype.

But I am struggling to understand this logic. How about the rest of you? Here's some reasons why I'm not sure I can accept these ideas:

1. Exodus 30:22-33 is where the Bible describes the anointing of the earthly sanctuary. If this truly foreshadows how Jesus anointed the heavenly sanctuary, and I have no reason to believe that it doesn't, then we are immediately faced with some difficulties. First of all, blood was not used to anoint the sanctuary. A special holy oil was connocted for that express purpose. And secondly, the entire sanctuary from the MHP to the outer court and everything in between was anointed with holy oil before the daily and annual services began.

2. Beginning with the second concern mentioned above. Jesus could not have gotten as far as the Cross without first anointing the MHP, the HP and the outer court. And He wouldn't have used blood to anoint the sanctuary. He would have used oil. So, the idea that Jesus had to wait to anoint the MHP with His blodd in AD 31 seems to deviate from the example of the earthly sanctuary.

Another stronghold advocated by people who say Jesus had to anoint the MHP in AD 31 is the idea that Daniel 9:24 predicts that Jesus would anoint the MHP before the end of the 70 week prophecy. The phrase - "Seventy weeks are determined upon the people and upon thy holy city... to anoint the most Holy." - they interpret to mean that Jesus would anoint the MHP in AD 31. But here's my concerns:

1. Daniel 9:24 lists several other things that the Jews had to fulfill before AD 34 in order to remain God's chosen nation. Why assume that the "most Holy" refers to the MHP in heaven and that Messiah was the one anointed to anoint it? The context makes it clear that the Jews were the one who were supposed to anoint the most Holy. But how would they get to heaven to do it?

2. It makes more sense to me, and seems to be more consistent with the prophecy, to suggest that the "most Holy" which needed to be anointed before the end of the 70 weeks, is the Messiah. Isn't that what happened when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan? And when you read Dan 9:24-27 the context is mostly about Jesus' earthly ministry during His 3 1/2 years on earth.

Are there any proponents of the AD 31 anointing theory who would like to address these concerns?

Mike

Just an initial thought here for now in regards to your number one point above..

You have to remember, Jesus was a Jew.

David, is there any concrete evidence that the "most Holy" in Dan 9:24 is indeed the MHP in heaven? And that this prophecy is referring to the Messiah going to heaven to anoint it with His blood?

Would anyone else care to join this discussion?

Mike

I will reply to your question re Dan.9 later; but I have a few relevant comments to this topic that should get the hard drives whirring a little more...

Relatively Speaking

To put it in a simple as possible form; we could say that the theory of relativity presumes that the four quadrants of the space-time entity are a unified, integrated field, with integrative principles.

This means that our conceptions of physical realities exist “in” space, and this is how we currently come up with our ideas in the existence of boundaries and limits in space-time; and we will then see these boundaries as somehow constraining the behavior of what we physically see as existing “in” space-time.

On planet Earth, such boundaries are described by us in the form of various physical laws and constants. Scientists cal it the “Relational Matrix Model.”

The specific relationships of space-time seems unclear at best; and exactly how time effects the constants that we perceive in the areas of velocity, mass, and energy is really unknown.

And, one more important note to make before getting to the text of Rev.13:8 above is the fact that science, (cosmology in this case), cannot establish moral judgements, or principles.

How can it? If scientific theories, as we know them, keep on changing from time to time, where then, is the real Truth?

The only real Truth we have, is what we actually see and what the Bible says. How can it be safe to venture onto scientific ground, to establish or validate any Biblical Truth?

What does the Bible mean, when it says “from the foundation of the world?” How does this phrase affect what we know of the death of Christ, and His ministry in the sanctuary?

Mike Lowe said to me in an e mail, about a year ago:
Quote by Mike Lowe (I added the numbers to divide the quote into three parts)….

1) “What is a reality in time and space for us - that is, Jesus died in Jerusalem in 31 AD - has been and still is a reality for God now and forever.

2) In other words, the death of Jesus is not limited to a place and time for God. And neither should it be for us. The cross of Christ is just as real now as it was in the Garden of Eden.

3) At any rate, that's how I finally was able to make sense of Rev 13:8 without ignoring the obvious meaning of the words employed. “ - end of quote

The only, real sense we can safely apply the theory of relativity, is well illustrated in the following personal example:

My personal theory of relativity can be explained by an incident that happened last year. I had a severely infected tooth, and the pain was excruciating; and I had to suffer the week-end, until I could see the dentist on Monday. I can understand what Einstein meant when he said: “If you are sitting on a hot stove for a few seconds; it seems like an hour; but if you’re talking with a lovely young girl; it seems like a few seconds.”

But this is where we must draw the lines, when it comes to Biblical concepts of time. The Bible is in agreement with me, when it says things like a thousand years to us, is like one day to the Lord. (2 Peter 3:8 “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”).

So it is, when God says Christ was “slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev.13:8). Sometime before our world was first created, an interesting meeting took place. It was called “The Counsel Of Peace.”

8T.269.005
The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:
"Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,
Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:
And He shall grow up out of His place;
And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .
And He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule upon His throne;
And He shall be a priest upon His throne;
And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V. 270

GC.415.003
The work of Christ as man's intercessor is presented in that beautiful prophecy of Zechariah concerning Him "whose name is the Branch." Says the prophet: "He shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon His [the Father's] throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13.

GC.416.004
"And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." The love of the Father, no less than of the Son, is the fountain of salvation for the lost race. Said Jesus to His disciples before He went away: "I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loveth you." John 16:26, 27. God was "in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. And in the ministration in the sanctuary above, "the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

In terms of a time reference, we are not told anything that would change our current understanding of when did Christ first enter the MHP. Revelation 13 is not intended as any measure of time for the sanctuary ministry of Christ; it is intended to portray God’s omnipresence, and omniscience, in terms of the plan of salvation being formed, only. Meaning that God planned our salvation, since before the world began. No reference to the sanctuary is implied here:

PP.063.003
Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race.

But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore.

The plan of salvation was “laid” before the foundation of the world; but was not in any part carried out, except as we know it in Bible prophecy.

David, thank you for that stirring reply. I really enjoyed reading it. You're a scientist and a scholar (maybe even poet). You made some very valid points. Thank you.

I'm not sure though that we can divorce Rev 13:8 from the sanctuary message. If that's what you meant to say? The two seem related to me. But I suppose the eternal and efficacious nature of Jesus' substitutional death, as it relates to terrestial time-space limitations, does not depend upon a single Bible verse.

That God, and even the angels, possess the ability to operate outside our three dimensional laws should go without saying. After His resurrection Jesus was able to appear and disappear through closed doors. The miracles of God also indicate the existence of laws that function outside any laws we have been able to utilize.

Is it so far fetched to suggest that there are laws that apply to only the Godhead? Just to name a few. The ability to... 1) Speak things into existence, 2) Know the end from the beginning, 3) Be everywhere at once, 4) Become a human being, 5) Lay down and take up His own life.

And would it be presumptuous to add to this list the ability to occupy eternity? to transcend the temporal restrictions of time and space as we know it? In other words, is it possible for God to travel through time without disrupting our time continuum? Does God truly inhabit "eternity" (Isa 57:15)? Is Jesus truly the "alpha and omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev 1:8 and 21:6)?

Since it is clear from the Bible that Jesus does indeed inhabit eternity, and that He is truly the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, then who and what are we to suggest that Rev 13:8 cannot possibly mean what it says? If God was trying to tell us that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, then how could He have stated it any clearer than Rev 13:8 - "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." How else could He have made it more obvious?

If, as Peter wrote, one of our days is like a thousand years for God, wouldn't that suggest that God's time is not the same as our time? If we were able to cram a thousand years into one day can you imagine what we might be able to accomplish in a month - 30,000 years? Think about it. Would it make God more or less personal if He had a thousands years for every one of our days? He would certainly have plenty of time for each and everyone of us, and time to spare for the others not of our world.

Okay, enough of that. I'm looking forward to the thoughts you're preparing for your next post.

Mike:
Here is a quote from Acts of Apostles that indicates that there was ceremony of some kind at the ascension of Jesus while He is being installed as the High Priest.

"Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even

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with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people."

What the ceremony was is not stated. We can only imagine that it was the fulfilment of the ceremonies described in Scripture.

Going back to the concept of the sanctuary being anointed at the beginning. Again, I would disagree on the principle of the fact that Jesus did not die until 31 AD. The sanctuary appeared to be fully functional on the principle of the promise of God. So the life, death, and blood of Jesus was available to cleanse sin based on the promise of God that He would be able to accomplish all these things in the future. So we know that Jesus did not have physical blood to dedicate and anoint the furniture in the sanctuary. But to God the fact that it was an accomplished fact, before time began, was sufficient for Him to start the process.

An example of that is for us. Are we in heaven now? According to the Spirit of Prophecy is yes, by faith. We are standing on the sea of glass today. We are actively participating in the heavenly processes because that is where our hearts and minds are to be. We are not physcially there yet, but that appears to be an incidental as far as God is concerned. We are there by faith.

Greg, thank you for sharing that quote. Indeed, there was an inaugural ceremony for Jesus when He returned to heaven to serve as our all powerful high priest. But what that has to do with Jesus anointing the sanctuary with oil before He left heaven to fulfill His outer court duties is not clear to me at this point.

Five posts back, on Dec 14 at 09:51 pm, I posted several questions and comments concerning the difference between using blood and using oil to anoint the sanctuary. Would you mind responding to those observations? I suspect these questions will add greatly to this discussion. Thank you.

In light of the quote describing the inaugural ceremony upon Jesus' return to heaven I wonder how the following quotes impact this study? If we're willing to allow that Jesus' inaugural ceremony is the antitype of the dedicatory service Moses performed when he anointed the earthly sanctuary with oil, then what are we supposed to do with these quotes? Her use of the phrase "final coronation" insinuates something that began earlier. When did His coronation begin, if not at His ascension? Perhaps when He entered the MHP in 1844? Compare Dan 7:9-14 where He begins to receive His everlasting kingdom.

GC 666.1 "In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:11, 12.

GC 668.4 "As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life."

Also, on Dec 14 at 09:51 pm, several questions and comments were posted concerning the difference between using blood and using oil to anoint the sanctuary. Would anybody mind responding to those observations? I suspect dealing with these questions will add greatly to this discussion. Thank you.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

In reference to the anointing the sanctuary with the blood and oil. I believe that a portion of that happened at the Jordan. The oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit and I believe that Jesus was anointed with the oil of the Spirit at the Jordan. I believe that He was washed by the prophet just like Moses did at the inauguration of the wilderness sanctuary. I believe that Jesus ate bitter herbs in the wilderness under the assault of satan and the rejection by His people. I believe that He was anointed by blood at Gethsemane and was crowned with the thorns of error and sin and rebellion when His crown was place on His head on the way to calvary. He had been proclaimed king at the triumphal entry and again on the cross. In addition He was again anointed with His own blood when His head and ears were anointed with the blood from His cross and His thumbs and hands and feet by the blood from His own wounds. I think that He thereby had complete the anointing of the temple, of His body, when He had finished suffering.

One other intersting side light. When His side was opened was that the antitype of the "sleep" of the first Adam, and the material taken from His side was used to create His helpmeet?

Also, what about all the animal sacrifices that were conducted since Eden and before Moses built the sanctuary? Do they help explain how Jesus could be the Lamb slain from the foundation of world even before He paid the price of our penalty on the cross?