My question is this - In light of Rev 13:8 did Jesus actually wait until AD 31 to anoint the Most Holy Place? Does that mean the rest of the heavenly sanctuary was not anointed until then? If so, did the Lamb of God fulfill His outer court duties before He anointed the heavenly sanctuary?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You realize that this is a "dangerous" question; I hope.

I would be curious to know from you Mike; a bit about what has led you to ask such a question re the sanctuary doctrine?

Do you think what you are asking here, may be considered as possible "new light?" Or, has this always been embedded in our theology? (I mean your comment of Rev.3:18).

Also, what are your initial thoughts on how your question may affect the rest of the sanctuary doctrines, that we have traditionally looked at as "established?"

I am presuming Mike, that you are trying to make a particular implication with your question re Rev.13:8; and so I am just "fishing" a bit if it's OK.

I have some thoughts/questions of course, and I am going to take some time to consider my response. The reason being, is mainly because it is such an important subject. I know that we have various leaders, teaching seemingly opposing views on When Christ may have first entered the Most Holy part of the sanctuary.

I think, in beginning a response, we can both be agreed that "His way is in the sanctuary;" and that whatever angle we come up with, should indeed be put to this test.

While I consider an inital response Mike; do you have anything else we should also use as a "test" to sort of ratify any conclusions we reach in this study?

(I guess you could call it "hermeneutics")

------------------
"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

Apparently his major burden was to somehow reconcile the objections raised by Desmond Ford (back in the 1980's) regarding the sanctuary message advocated by the SDA church. I don't know if Davidson's solution is new or original, but it does deserve some serious consideration.

I realize there has been hot debate in this forum under the Christian Concerns thread, but it looks as though the subject has been dropped by those who discussed the issues. It seems as though most of the participants have concluded that Jesus did indeed anoint the MHP in AD 31. I myself was leaning in that direction until certain questions began to surface, some of which I have already posed in this thread.

RE: Rev 13:8 - It just seems to me that this passage makes it clear that Jesus' blood was available to anoint the entire heavenly sanctuary when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. If this is the case, then why would Jesus wait until AD 31 to specifically anoint the MHP?

But my biggest concern regarding the idea that Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the MHP is when did He anoint the outer court and the HP? The reason this concerns me is the implication that Jesus performed His outer court and HP duties in a sanctuary that had not been anointed yet. Which would disqualify His substitutionary sacrifice.

As I understand it, the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary is planet earth. This is where Jesus came to live and die, and to rise on the third day, events associated with the ministry of the outer court at the altar and the laver. From earth Jesus returned to heaven where the HP and MHP are located.

Someone suggested that maybe Jesus anointed the outer court when Adam and Eve sinned, and that perhaps He anointed the HP at His incarnation. But if that is true, then why didn't Jesus wait until 1844 to anoint the MHP? However, even these ideas seem to fly in the face of the type/antitype motif. In other words, Moses did not anoint the earthly sanctuary in time divided stages, so how can we postulate that Jesus did it that way?

Seems to me the most obvious solution to this apparent dilemma is to allow that Jesus must have anointed the entire heavenly sanctuary (the outer court, the HP and the MHP) around the time Adam and Eve sinned.

What do the rest of you think?

"As I understand it, the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary is planet earth. This is where Jesus came to live and die, and to rise on the third day, events associated with the ministry of the outer court at the altar and the laver. From earth Jesus returned to heaven where the HP and MHP are located."

Hello Mike

I have never heard this angle before, although there are a few similarities to what I understand.

Do you have any Scripture or SOP that might lend support to especially the first sentence of your quote?

Also, in regards to Rev.13:8, I did manage to find a bunch of your old e mails from a year ago, when you & I discussed this text, and some possiblity with the theory of relativity.

One of the chief concerns I have re this view that I think you may be headed for is that the theology, is being made subservient, to the physiology, or physics; and it should be the other way around. I would be careful in forming conclusions that were more based on the theory of relativity, than on plainly revealed Scripture - and I am sure you have some explanation that will help me understand where you are headed here.

I look forward to your reply.

------------------
"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

1. Earth is where Jesus fulfilled His outer court ministry.

2. The outer court is the only apartment Jesus entered while on earth.

3. When the Bible describes the sanctuary in heaven only the HP and MHP are pictured.

4. The following SOP quotations imply that earth is the outer court:

"Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints who on earth meet to worship God. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimony of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth...." {6T 366.1}

"Our present position therefore is like that of the Israelites, standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. . . ." {TMK 73.2}

Isn't it an assumption to do that?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

1. If the outer court is not earth - then where is it?

2. If Ellen White did not intend for us to associate the two, then why did she use those terms?

3. Please comment on the other 3 points I listed in my last post.

SC.011.002
In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, The Lord "hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." Luke 4:18. This was His work. He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for He had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were revealed in every act of His life; His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees and gaze into the pensive face, benignant with love.

Jesus, was very obviously "annointed" BEFORE His death on the cross; and, therefore, the heavenly sanctuary was annointed AFTER Jesus was, as in the type of the earthly.

I think we are stretching it to try and make the earth, literally a part of the heavenly sanctuary; and basing that on just one or two quotes from SOP. I would need to see a good solid Biblical base laid out for the THEORY of earth being the outer court of the heavenly sanctuary, before I could accept it.

Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world," only refers to the fact that the plan of salvation was planned, but not carried out, "from the foundation of the world."

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Also, both you and Daryl have avoided addressing the points and questions I listed in previous posts regarding earth and the outer court. Please explain why you believe it's impossible for earth to be the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary. If not earth, then where? Where else did Jesus fulfill His outer court duties?

And please explain Rev 11:2 and the "court" mentioned in that text. If it's referring to the heavenly "outer court" isn't it obvious it's earth?

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

~P.S. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. The cross is not a thing of a single day. The cross was erected as soon as Adam fell. Christ was "slain" because He became Adam's substitute to bear the curse in Him. Christ did not leave Adam when he sinned, otherwise, he would have died instantly, physically! "The greatest burden we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear it, it would crush us." D.A.328. Thus it is written; "In Christ we live and move and have our being," whether we are a believer or not! Acts 17:28. So the cross of Christ is stamped in our bodies. Though sinful, yet we live! He is our life! Is He not? and the life of everything that lives! Education, p.197,198. Wherever is the curse, there is the cross of Christ, bearing it! The cross at Calavry was a microcosm of what Christ has been doing from the very first inception of sin! He is a wonderful sin bearer! Isaiah 43:24.

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Mike: I have not said that Jesus was not "slain from the foundation of the world." I am asking questions like you. I have only questioned your understanding of this passage. The prophecies of Daniel show clearly when Jesus was born, when he died, when he began His heavenly sanctuary ministry. If the Bible says that Jesus died when he was around 33 years old, how can you come along and change it with one Bible verse? You have not explained this too well yet. It is a poor idea to make a doctrine out of one verse.

"We can't assume, from our human point of view, that it's impossible for Jesus to be slain from the foundation of the world. God is not a man that He can't accomplish things outside our perspective."

Mike: The Bible does not contradict itself; so you have some explaining to do. My "human point of view," is the Bible.

"Also, both you and Daryl have avoided addressing the points and questions I listed in previous posts regarding earth and the outer court. Please explain why you believe it's impossible for earth to be the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary. If not earth, then where? Where else did Jesus fulfill His outer court duties?"

Mike: Who is avoiding what here? You have been asked for evidence which you have not supplied. You are building a whole doctrine on one verse. How can you justify that?

"And please explain Rev 11:2 and the "court" mentioned in that text. If it's referring to the heavenly "outer court" isn't it obvious it's earth?"

Here are the verses you are referring to:

1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. {leave out: Gr. cast out}

"In a special sense, and IN THE CONTEXT of this prophecy, the measuring takes place, at a specific period IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH."
(7BC 801)

Now why don't you tell us Mike; when was this "specific period?"

When was the "measuring" done? Who was measured? Who did the measuring? (or, who will do these things).

Part - 1
Search words “outer court” earth = 7 SOP hits.

1. {AG 75.4}
2.{OHC 167.1}-{OHC 167.5}
3.{6T 362.2}- {6T 368.3}
4.{GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 1}- {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 11}
5. {RH, March 30, 1897 par. 12}
6. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 1} - {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 9}
7. {9MR 91.1}- {9MR 101.1}

1.
The church of God below is one with the church of God above. Believers on the earth and the beings in heaven who have never fallen constitute one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints who on earth meet to worship God. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimony of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth, and the praise and thanksgiving from the worshipers below is taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing sound through the heavenly courts because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam. While angels drink from the fountainhead, the saints on earth drink of the pure streams flowing from the throne, the streams that make glad the city of our God. Oh, that we could all realize the nearness of heaven to earth! . . . In every assembly of the saints below are angels of God, listening to the testimonies, songs, and prayers. Let us remember that our praises are supplemented by the choirs of the angelic host above. {AG 75.4}

(Here the context is the unity of the church on a cosmic scale. The inner court of the Church is Heaven, and the outer court contains all the other worlds, of whom Earth is one of their number. No reference to the Sanctuary here.)

2.
Chap. 161 - One with the Church Above

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named. Eph. 3:14, 15. {OHC 167.1}

The church of God upon the earth is one with the church of God above. Believers on the earth, and those who have never fallen in heaven, are one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints, who on earth meet to worship God in spirit and truth, and in the beauty of holiness. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimonies of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth, and the praise and thanksgiving that comes from the church below, is taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing resounds through the heavenly court because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam. While angels drink from the fountainhead, the saints on earth drink of the pure streams flowing from the throne of God, making glad the city of God. . . . {OHC 167.2}

In every assembly of the saints below, are the angels of God listening to the thanksgiving, the praise, the supplication, that is offered by the people of God in testimonies, songs, and prayers. Let them remember that their praises are supplemented by the choirs of the angelic host above. . . . {OHC 167.3}

The company of believers may be few in number, but they have been taken by the cleaver of truth as rough stones from the quarry of the world . . . to be fitted up by test and trial for a place in God's heavenly temple, and they are very precious in the sight of the Lord. . . . Even in the rough they are precious in the sight of God. The ax and the hammer and the chisel of trial and test are in the hands of One who is skillful, and are used not to destroy, not to bring to nothingness, but to work out the perfections of every soul. . . . {OHC 167.4}

The Lord will no more cast off the humblest, lowliest believer in Jesus, than He will demolish His throne. We are accepted in the Beloved. We are members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. {OHC 167.5}

(Basic repeat of quote #1, but how do you like that promise in magenta ?

Everyone should feel that he has a part to act in making the Sabbath meetings interesting. You are not to come together simply as a matter of form, but for the interchange of thought, for the relation of your daily experiences, for the expression of thanksgiving, for the utterance of your sincere desire for divine enlightenment, that you may know God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent. Communing together in regard to Christ will strengthen the soul for life's trials and conflicts. Never think that you can be Christians and yet withdraw yourselves within yourselves. Each one is a part of the great web of humanity, and the experience of each will be largely determined by the experience of his associates. {6T 362.2}

We do not obtain a hundredth part of the blessing we should obtain from assembling together to worship God. Our perceptive faculties need sharpening. Fellowship with one another should make us glad. With such a hope as we have, why are not our hearts all aglow with the love of God? {6T 362.3}

We must carry to every religious gathering a quickened spiritual consciousness that God and His angels are there, co-operating with all true worshipers. As you enter the place of worship, ask the Lord to remove all evil from your heart. Bring to His house only that which He can bless. Kneel before God in His temple, and consecrate to Him His own, which He has purchased with the blood of Christ. Pray for the speaker or the leader of the meeting. Pray that great blessing may come through the one who is to hold forth the word of life. Strive earnestly to lay hold of a blessing for yourself. {6T 362.4}

God will bless all who thus prepare themselves for His service. They will understand what it means to have the assurance of the Spirit because they have received Christ by faith. {6T 363.1}

The place of worship may be very humble, but it is no less acknowledged by God. To those who worship God in spirit and in truth and in the beauty of holiness it will be as the gate of heaven. The company of believers may be few in number, but in God's sight they are very precious. By the cleaver of truth they have been taken as rough stones from the quarry of the world and have been brought into the workshop of God to be hewed and shaped. But even in the rough they are precious in the sight of God. The ax, the hammer, and the chisel of trial are in the hands of One who is skillful; they are used, not to destroy, but to work out the perfection of every soul. As precious stones, polished after the similitude of a palace, God designs us to find a place in the heavenly temple. {6T 363.2}

God's appointments and grants in our behalf are without limit. The throne of grace is itself the highest attraction because occupied by One who permits us to call Him Father. But God did not deem the principle of salvation complete while invested only with His own love. By His appointment He has placed at His altar an Advocate clothed with our nature. As our Intercessor, His office work is to introduce us to God as His sons and daughters. Christ intercedes in behalf of those who have received Him. To them He gives power, by virtue of His own merits, to become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. And the Father demonstrates His infinite love for Christ, who paid our ransom with His blood, by receiving and welcoming Christ's friends as His friends. He is satisfied with the atonement made. He is glorified by the incarnation, the life, death, and mediation of His Son. {6T 363.3}

No sooner does the child of God approach the mercy seat than he becomes the client of the great Advocate. At his first utterance of penitence and appeal for pardon Christ espouses his case and makes it His own, presenting the supplication before the Father as His own request. {6T 364.1}

As Christ intercedes in our behalf, the Father lays open all the treasures of His grace for our appropriation, to be enjoyed and to be communicated to others. "Ask in My name," "Christ says; "I do not say that I will pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loveth you, because you have loved Me. Make use of My name. This will give your prayers efficiency, and the Father will give you the riches of His grace; wherefore, 'ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full."' John 16:24. {6T 364.2}

God desires His obedient children to claim His blessing and to come before Him with praise and thanksgiving. God is the Fountain of life and power. He can make the wilderness a fruitful field for the people that keep His commandments, for this is for the glory of His name. He has done for His chosen people that which should inspire every heart with thanksgiving, and it grieves Him that so little praise is offered. He desires to have a stronger expression from His people, showing that they know they have reason for joy and gladness. {6T 364.3}

The dealings of God with His people should be often repeated. How frequently were the waymarks set up by the Lord in His dealings with ancient Israel! Lest they should forget the history of the past, He commanded Moses to frame these events into song, that parents might teach them to their children. They were to gather up memorials and to lay them up in sight. Special pains were taken to preserve them, that when the children should inquire concerning these things, the whole story might be repeated. Thus the providential dealings and the marked goodness and mercy of God in His care and deliverance of His people were kept in mind. We are exhorted to call to "remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions." Hebrews 10:32. For His people in this generation the Lord has wrought as a wonder-working God. The past history of the cause of God needs to be often brought before the people, young and old. We need often to recount God's goodness and to praise Him for His wonderful works. {6T 364.4}

While we are exhorted not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, these assemblies are not to be merely for our own refreshing. We are to be inspired with greater zeal to impart the consolation we have received. It is our duty to be very jealous for the glory of God and to bring no evil report, even by the sadness of the countenance or by ill-advised words, as if the requirements of God were a restriction upon our liberty. Even in this world of sorrow, disappointment, and sin the Lord desires us to be cheerful, and strong in His strength. The whole person is privileged to bear a decided testimony in every line. In features, in temper, in words, in character, we are to witness that the service of God is good. Thus we proclaim that "the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. {6T 365.1}

The bright and cheerful side of our religion will be represented by all who are daily consecrated to God. We should not dishonor God by the mournful relation of trials that appear grievous. All trials that are received as educators will produce joy. The whole religious life will be uplifting, elevating, ennobling, fragrant with good words and works. The enemy is well pleased to have souls depressed, downcast, mourning and groaning; he wants just such impressions made as to the effect of our faith. But God designs that the mind shall take no low level. He desires every soul to triumph in the keeping power of the Redeemer. The psalmist says: "Give unto the Lord, O ye mighty, give unto the Lord glory and strength. Give unto the Lord the glory due unto His name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness." I will extol Thee, O Lord; for Thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me. O Lord my God, I cried unto Thee, and Thou hast healed me. . . . Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of His, and give thanks at the remembrance of His holiness." Psalms 29:1, 2; 30:1-4. {6T 365.2}

The church of God below is one with the church of God above. Believers on the earth and the beings in heaven who have never fallen constitute one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints who on earth meet to worship God. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimony of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth, and the praise and thanksgiving from the worshipers below is taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing sound through the heavenly courts because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam. While angels drink from the fountainhead, the saints on earth drink of the pure streams flowing from the throne, the streams that make glad the city of our God. Oh, that we could all realize the nearness of heaven to earth! When the earthborn children know it not, they have angels of light as their companions. A silent witness guards every soul that lives, seeking to draw that soul to Christ. As long as there is hope, until men resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, they are guarded by heavenly intelligences. Let us all bear in mind that in every assembly of the saints below are angels of God, listening to the testimonies, songs, and prayers. Let us remember that our praises are supplemented by the choirs of the angelic host above. {6T 366.1}

Then as you meet from Sabbath to Sabbath, sing praises to Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood" let the heart's adoration be given. Let the love of Christ be the burden of the speaker's utterance. Let it be expressed in simple language in every song of praise. Let the inspiration of the Spirit of God dictate your prayers. As the word of life is spoken, let your heartfelt response testify that you receive the message as from heaven. This is very old-fashioned, I know; but it will be a thank offering to God for the bread of life given to the hungry soul. This response to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit will be a strength to your own soul and an encouragement to others. It will give some evidence that there are in God's building living stones that emit light. {6T 367.1}

While we review, not the dark chapters in our experience, but the manifestations of God's great mercy and unfailing love, we shall praise far more than complain. We shall talk of the loving faithfulness of God as the true, tender, compassionate shepherd of His flock, which He has declared that none shall pluck out of His hand. The language of the heart will not be selfish murmuring and repining. Praise, like clear-flowing streams, will come from God's truly believing ones. "Goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Thou shalt guide me with Thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but Thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside Thee." Psalms 23:6; 73:24, 25. {6T 367.2}

Why not awake the voice of our spiritual songs in the travels of our pilgrimage? Why not come back to our simplicity and life of fervor? The reason why we are not more joyful is that we have lost our first love. Let us then be zealous and repent, lest the candlestick be moved out of its place. {6T 368.1}

The temple of God is opened in heaven, and the threshold is flushed with the glory which is for every church that will love God and keep His commandments. We need to study, to meditate, and to pray. Then we shall have spiritual eyesight to discern the inner courts of the celestial temple. We shall catch the themes of song and thanksgiving of the heavenly choir round about the throne. When Zion shall arise and shine, her light will be most penetrating, and precious songs of praise and thanksgiving will be heard in the assemblies of the saints. Murmuring and complaining over little disappointments and difficulties will cease. As we apply the golden eyesalve we shall see the glories beyond. Faith will cut through the heavy shadow of Satan, and we shall see our Advocate offering up the incense of His own merits in our behalf. When we see this as it is, as the Lord desires us to see it, we shall be filled with a sense of the immensity and diversity of the love of God. {6T 368.2}

God teaches that we should assemble in His house to cultivate the attributes of perfect love. This will fit the dwellers of earth for the mansions that Christ has gone to prepare for all who love Him. There they will assemble in the sanctuary from Sabbath to Sabbath, from one new moon to another, to unite in loftiest strains of song, in praise and thanksgiving to Him who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.{6T 368.3}

(No allusions to Earth being outer court of Heavenly Sanctuary seen here.)

4.

February 15, 1895 Extracts From Communications Dated July 30, 1894 and Feb. 6, 1894

I would that every soul who sees the evidences of the truth would accept of Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour. Those who thus accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. The Lord will no more cast off the humblest, lowliest believer in Jesus, than he will demolish his throne. We are accepted in the Beloved. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 1}

We are members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 2}

The church of God upon the earth is one with the church of God above. Believers on the earth, and those who have never fallen in heaven, are one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints, who on earth meet to worship God in spirit and in truth, and in the beauty of holiness. In the inner court of heaven, they listen to the testimonies of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth. And the praise and thanksgiving that come from the church below, are taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing resound through the heavenly courts because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 3}

While angels drink from the fountain head, the saints on earth drink from the pure streams flowing from the throne of God, making glad the city of God. Oh, that we could all realize the nearness of heaven to earth! When the earth-born children know it not, they have the angels of light as their companions; for the heavenly messengers are sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation. A silent witness guards every soul that lives, seeking to win and draw it to Christ. The angels never leave the tempted ones a prey to the enemy who would destroy the souls of men if permitted to do so. As long as there is hope, until they resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, men are guarded by heavenly intelligences. Let us all bear in mind that in every assembly of the saints below, are the angels of God, listening to the thanksgiving, the praise, the supplication that is offered by the people of God in testimonies, songs, and prayers. Let them remember that their praises are supplemented by the choir of the angelic host above. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 4}

The image of Christ engraved upon the heart is reflected in character, in practical life, day by day, because we represent a personal Saviour. The Holy Spirit is promised to all who will ask for it. When you search the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit is by your side, personating Jesus Christ. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 5}

If we will open the door to Jesus, he will come in and abide with us. Our strength will always be reinforced by his actual representative, the Holy Spirit. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 6}

The truth is a living principle made to shine in precious clearness to the understanding, and then, O then, it is time to speak words from the living Christ. "Ye are laborers together with God." {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 7}

Under the showers of the latter rain, the inventions of man, the human machinery, will at times be swept away, the boundary of man's authority will be as broken reeds, and the Holy Spirit will speak through the living, human agent with convincing power. No one will then watch to see if the sentences are well rounded off, if the grammar is faultless. The living water will flow in God's own channels. . . . I am sure that there is a heaven full of the richest, enduring treasures to be freely given to all who will appropriate them to themselves, and becoming enriched, thereby, will impart freely to others. I know this to be the truth. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 8}

We need to obtain a rich, daily experience in prayer; we should be like the importunate widow, who, in her conscious need, overcame the unjust judge by the bare force of her determined pleadings. God will be inquired of to do these things for us; for this is giving depth and solidity to our experience. The soul that seeks God will need to be in earnest. He is a rewarder of all those that seek him diligently. . . . {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 9}

We want the truth spoken to human hearts by men that have been baptized with holy love for Christ, and for the purchase of his blood, men who are themselves thoroughly impressed with the truth they are presenting to others; and who are practicing the same in their own life. The word of God is sure, and every speaker should seek to link the hearers to Christ. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 10}

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Sythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering: forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any; even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Co. 3:9-15. {GCB, February 15, 1895 par. 11}

5.
Mothers and fathers need to be filled with that faith which works by love, and purifies the soul. Truth is no truth to the receiver unless it is brought, with its cleansing, refining, sanctifying power, into the soul temple. It cannot be progressive when it is kept in the outer court, when it is placed side by side with a carnal mind. O that parents were truly the sons and daughters of God! Their lives would then be fragrant with good works. A holy atmosphere would surround their souls. Their earnest supplications for grace and for the guidance of the Holy Spirit would ascend to heaven; and religion would be diffused through their homes as the bright, warming rays of the sun are diffused through the earth. {RH, March 30, 1897 par. 12}

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

6.
June 6, 1895 Comforting Thoughts. By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

Last Sabbath, July 28, my son, W. C. White, and myself, drove to Kellyville, to speak to the church, by special request. There was a person acquainted with our faith, but who was not one with us, who said he would come to the meeting to hear one of our ministers speak. We were the only ones who could respond to the request. We were glad to see in the assembly, besides this interested person, the family of Brother Radcliff, from Castle Hill, who had come ten miles to the meeting. We had a very precious season, for the promise of the Saviour was fulfilled, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst." When Jesus meets with his people, his blessing rests upon those who assemble for the purpose of worshipping God. We need to cherish and cultivate a spirit of true worship, a spirit of devotion, upon the Lord's holy, sanctified day. We should assemble together believing that we shall receive comfort and hope, light and peace, from Jesus Christ. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 1}

As we rode slowly up the hills, everything our eyes rested upon was peaceful and pleasant. In every direction we looked, the scenery was lovely. The orange and mandarin orchards displayed their golden fruit, and we remarked that the world is still beautiful and pleasant, although it has been marred by the wickedness of men. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 2}

I spoke from Matthew, the fifth chapter, and W. C. White followed me with a short discourse, after which we had a social meeting, when a number of testimonies were borne. We know that the Lord comforted those who were witnesses for Christ. The preaching service should generally be short, so that an opportunity may be given to those who love God to express their gratitude and adoration. Prayer and praise offered to God by his believing children honor and glorify his name. The company of believers may be few in number, but they have been taken by the Cleaver of truth as rough stones from the quarry of the world, and have been brought into God's workshop to be hewed and squared by ax and chisel, to be fitted up by test and trial for a place in God's heavenly temple, and they are very precious in the sight of the Lord. Though they are to be hewed and squared, and fitted and polished for the heavenly building, yet even in the rough, they are precious in the sight of God. The ax, and the hammer, and the chisel of trial and test, are in the hands of One who is skillful, and are used not to destroy, not to bring to nothingness, but to work out the perfection of every soul, so that, as precious stones, transformed and polished, the children of God may find their place in the building of God. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 3}

I would that every soul who sees the evidences of truth, would accept of Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour. Those who thus accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. The Lord will no more cast off the humblest, lowliest believer in Jesus than he will demolish his throne. We are accepted in the Beloved. We are members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 4}

The church of God upon the earth are one with the church of God above. Believers on the earth, and those who have never fallen in heaven, are one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints who on earth meet to worship God in spirit and truth and in the beauty of holiness. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimonies of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth, and the praise and thanksgiving that come from the church below are taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing resound through the heavenly court because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam. While angels drink from the fountain head, the saints on earth drink of the pure stream flowing from the throne of God, making glad the city of God. O that we could all realize the nearness of heaven to earth! When the earth-born children know it not, they have the angels of light as their companions; for the heavenly messengers are sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation. A silent witness guards every soul that lives, seeking to win and draw him to Christ. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 5}

The angels never leave the tempted ones a prey to the enemy, who would destroy the souls of men if permitted to do so. As long as there is hope, until they resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, men are guarded by heavenly intelligences. Let us all bear in mind that in every assembly of the saints below are the angels of God, listening to the thanksgiving, the praise, the supplication that is offered by the people of God in testimonies, songs, and prayers. Let them remember that their praises are supplemented by the choirs of the angelic host above. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 6}

As we journeyed homeward, my mind was called out in contemplation of these precious themes, and I was filled with an intense longing to pass along some of these precious thoughts to my brethren and sisters. O that with pen and voice I could represent the privileges of the children of God as they really exist! O that we who are pilgrims and strangers in this foreign country, seeking a better country, even a heavenly, might comprehend Christ, the way, the truth, and the life! He says, "No man cometh unto the Father but by me." The path he has marked out is so plain and distinct that the veriest sinner, loaded with guilt, need not miss his way. Not one trembling seeker need to fail of finding the true path, and of walking in pure and holy light; for Jesus leads the way. The path is so narrow, so holy, that sin cannot be tolerated therein, yet access to the path has been made for all, and not one desponding, doubting, trembling soul needs to say, "God cares naught for me." Every soul is precious in his sight; "for God so loved the world," even in its blackness and disobedience, even with the heavy shadow of sin and Satan upon it, "that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 7}

When Satan was triumphing as the prince of the world, when he claimed the world as his kingdom, when we were all marred and corrupted with sin, God sent his messenger from heaven, even his only-begotten Son, to proclaim to all the inhabitants of the world: I have found a ransom. I have made a way of escape for all the perishing. I have your emancipation papers provided for you, sealed by the Lord of heaven and earth. You may have freedom upon the condition of faith in Him who is able to save unto the uttermost all who come unto God by Him. A ransom has been provided at infinite cost, and it is not because there is any flaw in the title which has been purchased for lost souls that they do not accept it. It is not because the mercy, the grace, the love of the Father and the Son are not ample, and have not been freely bestowed, that they do not rejoice in pardoning love, but it is because of their unbelief, because of their choice of the world, that they are not comforted with the grace of God. It is their love of disobedience, their pleasure in sin, their enjoyment of rebellion, that have blunted their perceptions until they fail to discern the things which make for their peace. If they are lost, it will be because they will not come unto Christ that they might have life. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 8}

God waits to bestow the blessing of forgiveness of sins, of pardon for iniquity, of the gift of righteousness, upon all who will believe in his love and accept of his salvation. Christ is ready to say to the repenting sinner: "Take away the filthy garments from him. . . . Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments." "Thus saith the Lord of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by." Christ is the connecting link between God and man. The blood of Jesus Christ is the eloquent plea that speaks in behalf of sinners. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.
Norfolk Villa, Granville, N. S. W., July 30, 1894. {ST, June 6, 1895 par. 9}
(Still SOP speaking of Inner & Outer Courts of the Church Body on a cosmic scale.)

7.

MR No. 696 - Testimony or "Social" Meetings

Testimonies Bring Rejoicing in Heaven.--Believers on the earth and those who have never fallen in heaven are one church. Every heavenly intelligence is interested in the assemblies of the saints, who on earth meet to worship God in spirit and truth, and in the beauty of holiness. In the inner court of heaven they listen to the testimonies of the witnesses for Christ in the outer court on earth, and the praise and thanksgiving that comes from the earth below is taken up in the heavenly anthem, and praise and rejoicing sounds through the heavenly court because Christ has not died in vain for the fallen sons of Adam.--Manuscript 52, 1896, p. 5. (Untitled, undated manuscript.) {9MR 91.1}

"Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and thought upon his name" (Malachi 3:16). {9MR 91.2}

Do the believers who meet in their small assemblies in humble churches or in private houses often look upon this picture framed by the Lord of hosts? Do they hang it in memory's hall, and contemplate it with hope and joy and courage? What a hope-inspiring picture is this where the Lord is represented as bending down and hearkening to the testimonies borne by His witnesses! What inspiration it should give us to consider the fact that all the heavenly universe is represented as listening with pleasure to the words that are spoken exalting the name of God in the earth. They may not be words of oratory, and they are not words that express doubt, unbelief, and complaint; for such words do not honor the Redeemer. The words to which God and the angels listen with delight are words of appreciation for the great Gift that has been made to the world in the only begotten Son of God. Every word of praise for the blessing of the light of truth which has come in messages of warning, and which has dispelled the darkness of error, is written in the heavenly records. Every word that acknowledges the merciful kindness of our heavenly Father in giving Jesus to take away our sins, and to impute to us His righteousness, is recorded in the book of His remembrance. Testimonies of this kind "show forth the praises of Him who hath called us out of darkness into His marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9). . . . {9MR 91.3}

Although the social meeting is a new thing, yet they are learning in the school of Christ, and are overcoming fear and trembling. We keep before them the fact that the social meeting will be the best meeting in which they may be trained and educated to be witnesses for Christ.--Manuscript 32, 1894, pp. 3-5. ("Meeting at Seven Hills," July 29, 1894.) {9MR 92.1}

Aid to Unity.--I spoke to our people in the afternoon from Luke 13:23, 24. I had freedom in speaking and the people seemed to listen with deep interest. Afterward there was a social meeting. Elder [J.G.] Matteson interpreted to W. C. White and myself the testimonies borne. We could but say, One Lord, one faith, one baptism. The brethren in Sweden have the very same experience as our brethren in America. This was a good meeting.-- Manuscript 65, 1886, p. 5. ("Second Visit to Sweden," June 19, 1886.) {9MR 92.2}

Solution to Problems of Despondence and Criticism.--When our church members during the week act their part in the service of the Lord, they will be roused from the despondency that is ruining many, body and soul. As they work for others, they will have much that is helpful to speak of when they assemble to worship God. The Sabbath meeting will be like meat in due season; for all will bring precious offerings to the Lord. When God's people see the great need of sinners being converted, turned from the service of Satan to serve the living God, the testimonies they bear in the Sabbath service will not be dark and gloomy, but full of joy and courage, life and power. Instead of thinking and talking about the faults of their brethren and sisters, and about their own trials, they will think and talk of the love of Christ, and will strive earnestly to become more efficient workers for Him.-- Manuscript 127, 1903, p. 6. ("A Call to Service," October 27, 1903.) {9MR 92.3}

A Different Atmosphere.--By His Holy Spirit, God has spoken to me, His messenger, from time to time, and I am bidden to give the word to the people. What His servants shall teach has been clearly outlined. If fewer words of human wisdom, and more of the words of Christ were spoken, if there were fewer sermons, and more social meetings, we would find a different atmosphere pervade our churches and our camp meetings. Seasons of prayer should be held for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Then let the leader of the meeting, by a few appropriate remarks, open the way for the church members to bear witness to their love of God.--Letter 292, 1907, p. 4. (To J. E. White and wife, September 21, 1907.) {9MR 93.1}

Confession Essential Though Humiliating.--I spoke with much freedom Sabbath forenoon. {9MR 93.2}

The people seem to be hungering and thirsting for the bread and water of salvation. The Lord gave me much of His Holy Spirit. I was very free in the Lord. Hearts were touched, for the Spirit of the Lord rested upon the people. We had a very excellent social meeting, which lasted until after sundown. This was indeed a good day for this church. Confessions were made by some, very humiliating to the soul, but essential for them, that the fruits might appear unto righteousness.--Manuscript 18, 1889, p. 5. (Diary, February 23, 1889.) {9MR 93.3}

Recommendation of Our Doctrines.--A gentleman and lady entered when I was nearly through. They listened with deep interest. They remained through the social meeting and listened to sensible testimonies that were a recommendation to the doctrines we profess to believe.--Manuscript 65, 1886, p. 11. ("Second Visit to Sweden," June 26, 1886.) {9MR 94.1}

Essential for a Living Church.--Some of those who are newly come to the faith know not how to bear testimony, for they had never done this; but I presented the matter before them, and urged them to be earnest, interested workers for the Lord Jesus, and to serve Him. This they must do if they had a living church; everyone must bear his share of the responsibility. If they would exercise their ability God would give them increased power, and this was the way to let their light shine out to the world. Well, fifteen testimonies were borne. Some had never before opened their lips in meeting, although they were intelligent men. . . . The blessing of the Lord rested upon all present.--Letter 50, 1894, p. 3. (To Harmon Lindsay, June 14, 1894.) {9MR 94.2}

One Man Should Not Do All the Talking.--I spoke again to the people assembled in conference from Malachi 3:16, "Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another," etc. I dwelt upon the importance of making our social meetings interesting; that one man wasn't to do all the talking, but everyone should bear his testimony. It has been the habit of one man to get up and talk from one half hour to an hour. This is called meditation. Then the interest of the meeting is gone and no one feels that he has any testimony to bear. One or two make a few remarks and the meetings close; and there had not been the habit of having social meetings in Europe. But we are seeking to educate them on this point, that it is the duty of everyone who loves God and the truth to speak to one another words of experience and of comfort, and to tell of God's goodness, His love, and His great mercy in giving His Son Jesus Christ to die for us while we were enemies to God.--Manuscript 29, 1887, p. 8. ("Labors in Switzerland, No. 8," February 22, 1887.) {9MR 94.3}

Work Cheerfully, Make Social Meetings Interesting.--The work done for the spiritual interest of the workers in the office should be done with cheerfulness. It is not to be looked upon as a burden, but as a privilege. Those who do this work are not to wear long faces, as though they were going to a funeral. Their countenances should be lighted up with the joy of serving Christ. {9MR 95.1}

Keep this idea uppermost. Make the social meeting as interesting as possible. Let each one feel that he has a duty to perform in the meeting. This will help the workers. Cooperate with the heavenly angels, who are trying to make a right impression on every worker. They are sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation.--Manuscript 81, 1901, p. 6. (Talk Given by E. G. White to Board of Directors of Pacific Press, August 21, 1901.) {9MR 95.2}

Sermon Should Be Short.--The preaching service should generally be short, so that an opportunity may be given to those who love God to express their gratitude and adoration. Prayer and praise offered to God by His believing children honors and glorifies His name.--Manuscript 32a, 1894, p. 2. (Untitled Manuscript, July 30, 1894.) {9MR 96.1}

All Should Have Opportunity on Sabbath to Bear Testimony.--I have had my mind drawn recently to the subject of our Sabbath meetings. The work of the Sabbath School needs to be elevated. The leader appointed to conduct the church service should study and learn how to interest others. On this one day in the week, all who love God and are striving to keep His commandments should be given an opportunity to bear their testimony. Do not plan to have a discourse that shall occupy all the time, while those who assemble are given no opportunity to confess Christ. {9MR 96.2}

Our brethren would receive a blessing in dispensing with or deferring one meal of the day, if necessary, in order that an hour or more might be devoted to testimony meeting. We used often to make the Sabbath a day of fasting and prayer, and we were greatly blessed in our worship. {9MR 96.3}

The Sabbath day should be spent to the glory of God. Let everyone take time to humble his heart before God, and clear away all the rubbish from the soul temple. If bitter feelings have been cherished, or there are wrongs to be confessed, let every barrier be removed. Has anyone spoken evil of his brother, or placed an occasion of stumbling in his brother's way? Let him realize that this is a sin to be repented of. {9MR 96.4}

"If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" (Philippians 2:1-2). {9MR 96.5}

There should be a spirit of confession to God, and an acknowledgment of His blessings, with thanksgiving. Our worship should be so filled with praise and thanksgiving that the angels of heaven will rejoice with us.-- Letter 279, 1905, pp. 2,3. (To Clarence Santee, October 4, 1905.) {9MR 97.1}

In conclusion I would say, On the Sabbath, when the people assemble for worship, let the discourse be short, and let all be given an opportunity to bear testimony.--Letter 187, 1904, p. 2. (To Brethren Butler and Haskell, June 3, 1904.) {9MR 97.2}

In Connection With Sermon and Lord's Supper.--I spoke to our people upon Sabbath with much freedom. A social meeting followed where many bore testimony for the truth and expressed gratitude for that which they had heard, and said they meant from that time to be more earnest and interested in the work and cause of God than they had been heretofore. At the close of the meeting the Lord's supper was administered.--Letter 21, 1880, p. 2. (To James White, April 15, 1880.) {9MR 97.3}

A Social Meeting.-- Wednesday night we had a social meeting. There was a good little number represented, and the Lord was in our midst and that to bless. All seemed so thankful for a little help and so pleased with the spirit of the meeting.--Letter 23, 1882, p. 2. (To W. C. White, December 1, 1882.){9MR 97.4}

With Bible Study.--Let small companies [in our publishing houses] assemble together in the evening or early morning to study the Bible for themselves. Let them have a season of prayer that they may be strengthened and enlightened and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. This is the work Christ wants to have done in the heart of everyone who is engaged in any department of the publishing work. If you will do this a great blessing will come to you. . . . What testimonies you should bear of the loving acquaintance you have made with your fellow-workers in these precious seasons when seeking the blessing of God. Let each tell his experience in simple words. This will bring more comfort and joy to the soul than all the pleasant instruments of song that can be produced in the tabernacle. Let Christ come into your hearts.-- Letter 2, 1900, pp. 3,4. (To Brother and Sister Sisley, January 3, 1900.) {9MR 98.1}

Tell What Jesus Has Done For You.--Satan will work against us by laying stumbling blocks in our way. We must remember home religion. We must have the meekness of Christ at every step. Christ must abide in us, and then when we come into the meeting, no matter where it is, how many there are or how few, we will have something to say. It is because you have Christ formed within you, and you cannot keep Him boxed up in the heart. You can't do it. You must reveal Him. You will tell what Jesus has done for you, how He has worked for you. Why He is first and He is last. You love Him--and how can you help it.--Undated Manuscript 70, p. 18. ("A Talk to Parents," Undated Manuscript.) {9MR 98.2}

Honor the Lovely Jesus.--One cannot row another's boat. We must strive for heaven with all our might. Everyone has a part to act and something to do in the cause of God. None of you should keep silent in your meetings. Surely everyone who has tasted of the powers of the world to come can say something in honor of the lovely Jesus.--Letter 30, 1850, p. 2. (To Brother and Sister Loveland, December 13, 1850.) {9MR 98.3}

Confession Plays a Part.--Monday I attended five-o'clock meeting but found it a tract and missionary meeting, the same as I had found Sunday morning, and had to beat a retreat. The work of reformation, of seeking God, seemed to be dropped. I attended the nine -o'clock meeting. It was a social meeting. After several had spoken, I felt the burden of testimony, and I spoke with great plainness and power for about one hour, and the words were felt by the people. I called them forward and the center of the seats in the large tent was quickly filled. Then confessions were made one to another. The testimony I bore was in reference to their backslidings from God. Many tears were shed. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon ministers and people. It was a good season. I labored hard but with pleasure and freedom.-- Letter 5a, 1881, p. 5. (To W. C. and Mary White, June 14, 1881.) {9MR 99.1}

The church needs the fresh, live experiences of members who have habitual communion with God. Old, dry, stale testimonies and prayers, without the manifestation that Christ is in them as a well of water springing up unto everlasting life, are no help to the church.--Letter 118, 1896, p. 5. (To Addie and May Walling, November 17, 1896.) {9MR 99.2}

Thankfulness and Resolution.--We had a precious social meeting. Many intelligent testimonies were borne, which Brother Matteson interpreted. These testimonies expressed their thankfulness that the Lord sent them help from America and expressed their gratitude to God for the truth and for the increased light Sister White had given them. They could see, they said, as they had not done before, the necessity of greater strictness in keeping the Sabbath and could sense the offensive character of sin, and they would make earnest efforts to put sin away. Some expressed with tears their regret that they could not communicate with us, but were thankful that when we reach heaven we can all have one language and enjoy each other's society. They spoke of receiving great light from the writings of God's servant, but they never expected she would visit them. The testimonies were all given in a tender, melting spirit, and it was evident that these precious souls had indeed a love for the truth, and the very similar experience to all brethren in America.--Manuscript 26, 1885, p. 5. ("First Visit to Sweden," October 15, 1885.) {9MR 99.3}

At Portland, Oregon.--The Lord gave me great power before the people on Sabbath. About fifty came forward for prayers. Many of that number were seeking the Lord for the first time. Backsliders came back with confessions, well wet down with tears. . . . {9MR 100.1}

[Later] I arose and talked a short time telling them we had waited for these leading men to take a position which God could approve and let His Spirit into the meeting. . . . I had two front seats cleared, and asked those who were backslidden from God and those who had never started to serve the Lord, to come forward. They began to come. Other seats were cleared and finally there was the whole body of seats of the tent filled; about one dozen were in the side seats. Then the Spirit of God like a tidal wave swept over the congregation. Such solemnity; deep, earnest, heartfelt confessions were made. These men who had stood like icebergs melted under the beams of the Son of Righteousness. They came right to the point. They made thorough work. Confessions were made with weeping and deep feeling. We had a most solemn, blessed season of intercession and then closed the meeting and took our breakfast and assembled again at eight o'clock to finish the work. Parents confessed to children and children to parents, husbands to wives and wives to husbands, brothers to sisters, and sisters to brothers. It seemed like the movement of 1844. I have not been in a meeting of this kind for many years. After the hard-fought battle, the victory was most precious. We all wept like children. {9MR 100.2}

Brother Boyd spoke of his gratitude while the tears rained from his face. Oh, I praise the Lord, I praise Him, for He is to be praised.-- Letter 20, 1884, pp. 3,6. (To Uriah Smith, June 27, 1884.)

White Estate Washington, D.C. February 20, 1979 {9MR 101.1}

Here is data from Broadside -1

"Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised his eyes and hands to heaven and cried out, Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the City. Jesus raised his mighty glorious arm, laid hold of the gate and swung it back on its golden hinges, and said to us, You have washed your robes in my blood, stood stiffly for my truth, enter in. We all marched in and felt we had a perfect right in the City. Here we saw the tree of life, and the throne of God. Out of the throne came a pure river of water, and on either side of the river was the tree of life. On one side of the river was a trunk of a tree and a trunk on the other side of the river, both of pure transparent gold. {Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 3}

At first I thought I saw two trees. I looked again and saw they were united at the top in one tree. So it was the tree of life, on either side of the river of life; its branches bowed to the place where we stood; and the fruit was glorious, which looked like gold mixed with silver. We all went under the tree, and sat down to look at the glory of the place, when brothers Fitch and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, and whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping. We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out Hallelujah, heaven is cheap enough, and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven's arches ring. And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. And I saw a veil with a heavy fringe of silver and gold as a border on the bottom; it was very beautiful. I asked Jesus what was within the veil. He raised it with his own right arm, and bade me take heed. I saw there a glorious ark, overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border, resembling Jesus' crowns; on it were two bright angels--their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward. In the ark, beneath where the angels wings were spread, was a golden pot of Manna, of a yellowish cast; and I saw a rod, which Jesus said was Aarons; I saw it bud, blossom and bear fruit. And I saw two long golden rods, on which hung silver wires, and on the wires most glorious grapes; one cluster was more than a man here could carry. And I saw Jesus step up and take off the manna, almonds, grapes and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table. I stepped up to see how much was taken away, and there was just as much left; and we shouted Hallelujah--Amen. We all descended from this place down into the city, and with Jesus at our head we all descended from the city down to this earth, on a great and mighty mountain, which could not bear Jesus up, and it parted asunder, and there was a mighty plain. Then we looked up and saw the great city, with twelve foundations, twelve gates, three on each side, and an angel at each gate, and all cried out, "the city, the great city, it's coming, its coming down from God, out of heaven;" and it came and settled on the place where we stood. Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city. There I saw most glorious houses, that had the appearance of silver, supported by four pillars, set with pearls, most glorious to behold, which were to be inhabited by the saints; in them was a golden shelf; I saw many of the saints go into the houses, take off their glittering crowns and lay them on the shelf, then go out into the field by the houses to do something with the earth; not as we have to do with the earth here; no, no. A glorious light shone all about their heads, and they were continually shouting and offering praises to God. {Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 4}

And I saw another field full of all kind of flowers, and as I plucked them, I cried out, well they will never fade. Next I saw a field of tall grass, most glorious to behold; it was living green, and had a reflection of silver and gold, as it waved proudly to the glory of King Jesus. Then we entered a field full of all kinds of beasts--the lion, the lamb, the leopard and the wolf, altogether in perfect union; we passed through the midst of them, and they followed on peaceably after. Then we entered a wood, not like the dark woods we have here, no, no; but light, and all over glorious; the branches of the trees waved to and fro, and we all cried out, " we will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in this woods." We passed through the wood, for we were on our way to Mount Zion. As we were travelling along, we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they had a hem of red on their garments also. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place; the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs, that made the place look all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised his lovely voice and said, only the 144,000 enter this place, and we shouted Hallelujah. {Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 5}

Well, bless the Lord, dear brethren and sisters, it is an extra meeting for those who have the seal of the living God. This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The glorious things I saw there, I cannot begin to describe. O, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the upper world; but, if faithful, you soon will know all about it. I saw there the tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000, were engraved in letters of gold; after we had beheld the glory of the temple, we went out. Then Jesus left us, and went to the city; soon, we heard his lovely voice again, saying--"Come my people, you have come out of great tribulation, and done my will; suffered for me; come in to supper, for I will gird myself, and serve you. "We shouted Hallelujah, glory; and entered into the city; and I saw a table of pure silver, it was many miles in length, yet our eyes could extend over it. And I saw the fruit of the tree of life, the manna, almonds, figs, pomegranates, grapes, and many other kinds of fruit. We all reclined at the table. I asked Jesus to let me eat of the fruit. He said, not now. Those who eat of the fruit of this land, go back to earth no more. But in a little while, if faithful, you shall both eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the fountain; and he said, you must go back to the earth again, and relate to others, what I have revealed to you. Then an angel bore me gently down to this dark world. Sometimes I think I cannot stay here any longer, all things of earth look so dreary--I feel very lonely here, for I have seen a better land. O, that I had wings like a dove, then would I fly away, and be at rest. {Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 6}

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

About four months since I had a vision of events all in the future. I saw the time of trouble, such as never was. Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we should be delivered out of it by the voice of God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword--nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. Then we cried to God day and night for deliverance, until we began to hear the bells on Jesus' garment. And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of the bells and knew that our High Priest was coming out. Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and the earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus coming. Then the saints were free, united, and full of the glory of God, for he has turned their captivity. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus' stood. Then Jesus laid off his priestly garment and put on his Kingly robe, and took his place on the cloud which carried him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saint's feet.
Ellen G. Harmon.

Portland, April 6, 1846. {Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 8}

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

2. Was the courtyard on earth? It appears to me that the if you look at the santuary from the side, and looked at it spiritually, it would be a two tiered system. heaven
earth
The earth part is the area outside of the courtyard, outside of the white linen of the courtyard, the righteousness of Christ. The heavenly part, that only the priest could go into, is identified as heaven.

3. Is the sanctuary literal or symbolic? The earthly sanctuary was a parable (figure in Hebrews 9:9). It was obviously a literal thing on earth but primarily represented spiritual events to take place on earth and in heaven. The heavenly sanctuary is real with real events taking place in it.

4. When was the anointing? In Exodus 40:9-16 Moses was instructed to anoint the various things of the sanctuary. Apparently the anointing did not take place literally until Leviticus 8:1-36. I do not know if God intended for that to happen so that there is a "pause" between instruction, command, and action.
It would appear that the sanctuary system, in the courtyard, was functional from the fall of Adam and Eve. Apparently it had to be reintroduced, enlarged, and given a visual amplification, after the Exodus. It ran until Jesus came as a man, was anointed by the prophet at the Jordan, then anointed by the Holy Spirit, and blessed by the Father. This apparently started the heavenly process that the earthly shadow had indicated would happen.

5. Was there an anointing in heaven after Jesus returned to heaven and started His role as the High Priest in the Holy Place. It would appear from the Acts of Apostles pages 38-39 "Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people." that there was a big occasion at the ascension of Christ. It appears that the "inaguration" was a special giving of powers and authority to Jesus.
It is my belief, based on my understanding today which would change as new information comes in, that the anointing of Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9:24 but that He also anointed the Holy Place and could have anointed the Most Holy Place as well Moses did in Exodus 40:9. I believe that Jesus conducted this part of the sanctuary service when He returned to heaven.

6. As there was a big service in heaven when Jesus returned to heaven I also believe that there was a big service in heaven at 1844 when the judgment started. I believe that it was inagurated and blessed in the 1843 and 1844 movements, and outpouring of the Holy Spirit fell in the Loud Cry and the 3 angels messages, and the granting of the spirit of prophecy to EGW.

7. It would also indicate that there will be another major movement just prior to the second coming. As Jesus prepares to close the Most Holy Place process I believe that He will again pour out His Spirit to prepare His people to get ready for the closing of the Most Holy Place, the change of His garments from priestly to king, the placing of the sins the scapegoat and the gathering of His people to heaven. During this time I blieve that His people will be "standing" on the sea of glass - an experience of total trust with Jesus - and they will be ready to go with Jesus without fear of Him.

When Adam fell under temptation, the Savior was there to bear the curse of sin in him! "In Christ Adam lived and moved and had his being." Christ did not leave him but went down with him. He swallowed up death in him. He alone could do it if Adam were to continue to live. That is what is meant by Jesus being "slain" from the foundation of the world. And He has been bearing the curse of sin in each and every one of us ever since the very first inception of sin. "The greatest burden we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear it, it would crush us." D.A.327,328.

Anyone who reads these two statements with an open mind, willing to be taught of God, may understand this great truth. But if we are not willing to leave our preconceived ideas at the door of investigation, and let the Lord teach us, though it be through His humblest instrument, then we will never see light in God's light.

These statements plainly teach that until one has seen Christ crucified at every turn, he has not yet seen the reality of the Gospel! We must see Christ crucified in every man and in everything that has life! This is what the apostle Paul had in mind when he said, "I determine to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified." 1 Cor.2:2. "It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment." Acts 17:28; Education, p.198.

No one or no thing in creation can bear the curse and live; and yet we live and there is life everywhere in spite of the curse which is everywhere! And the curse is death! This is an evidence that the cross of Christ is everywhere present, bearing it! Christ, by His Spirit, bears all the curse there is in this world. Otherwise, there would be no life anywhere! "I am the life," said He! In the words of the servant of the Lord, this truth is wonderfully expressed: "He is the life of everything that lives." Education, p.197.

Is not our God, indeed, a longsuffering God? "You have made Me serve with your sins; you have wearied Me with your iniquities." Isaiah 43:24. "The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." M.H.417. And "Christ is both the power and the wisdom of God." 1 Cor.1:24.

Is this knowledge too deep for us? If we are to come to an understanding of this deep truth, we need only to believe it because God says it and He will see that we understand it! We cannot comprehend it with the human intellect only for "man's wisdom is foolishness unto God." 1 Cor.3:19.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

"The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. . . . {7BC 972.1}

"Here is the work going on, measuring the temple and its worshipers to see who will stand in the last day. Those who stand fast shall have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. When we are doing our work remember there is One that is watching the spirit in which we are doing it. Shall we not bring the Saviour into our everyday lives, into our secular work and domestic duties? Then in the name of God we want to leave behind everything that is not necessary, all gossiping or unprofitable visiting, and present ourselves as servants of the living God (MS 4, 1888). {7BC 972.2}

Here she borrows the language of Rev 11:1,2 and seems to apply it to the investigative judgment that began in 1844. However, the text also mentions the 42 months which were fulfilled between 538 and 1798. This portion of the prophecy seems to parallel Dan 8:9-12 where the papacy usurped Jesus' daily role as high priest in the holy place apartment of the heavenly sanctuary.

This papal counterfeit ceased in 1844 when Jesus entered the MHP and began His annual role as high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Thus the "court which is without the temple" (Rev 11:2) could either be the outer court or the holy place or both (depending on whether you are talking about the historical or a future view of this prophecy).

In 1844, when Jesus entered the MHP, the HP was given to the unbelieving Christians (those who did not follow Him into the MHP) to trod under foot, led by Satan. See EW 56, 92 and 261. So, from a future application point of view the "court" may refer to the HP.

But if the outer "court" in Rev 11:2 was trodden under foot by the Gentiles during the 1,260 years of papal persecution, then would it be safe to say that earth is the outer court?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Greg, welcome aboard. It's always nice when new people join the study. And thank you for those insightful comments regarding the special services associated with the various stages of Jesus' ministry.

AB, I agree with your thoughts on Rev 13:8. The text is so plain I don't see how we can take it to mean anything else. Just because we can't understand it doesn't mean we should spiritualize it to say something it doesn't.

Yes, Jesus didn't die on the cross until AD 31. And yes, the Bible is full of passages that confirm this wonderful truth. And Greg makes a good point concerning his credit card analogy. But does that mean we should force Rev 13:8 to agree with this truth?

What if Rev 13:8 is supposed to teach us another truth? Can we read this passage exactly the way it is written? Is it impossible for this text to be true about God? Or is it possible there are things about God that we don't understand?

The idea that Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the HP and MHP just doesn't make sense to me. The earthly sanctuaries were dedicated in one all encompassing ceremony. Why not the heavenly sanctuary too? If so, then Jesus would have first entered the outer court to pay the penalty for our sins, then He would have entered the HP to perform the daily duties, and then He would have entered the MHP on the day antonement to perform the investigative judgment. And isn't that what happened?

Please answer the following questions:

1. If earth isn't the outer court, then what is? and where is it?

2. If earth isn't the outer court, then why did Jesus experience death and resurrection (outer court duties) here?

3. Why didin't Jesus anoint and dedicate the entire sanctuary when Adam and Eve sinned?

4. If it was possible for Jesus to wait until AD 31 to anoint the MHP, then why didn't He just wait until 1844 instead?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

In 1844 when Jesus entered the MHP the HP was given to the unbelieving Christians, who did not follow Him into the MHP, to trod under foot, led by Satan. See EW 56, 92 and 261. So, from a future application point of view the "court" may refer to the HP.

But if the outer "court" in Rev 11:2 was trodden under foot by the Gentiles during the 1,260 years of papal persecution, then wold it be safe to say that earth is the outer court?
******************************

Mike: Rev.11:2 leaves absolutely no doubt as to the earth being the outer court. There was never a time when the Holy Place could be the outer court! How could the innermost parts of the Sanctuary represent the earth?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Do you understand my point? It's somewhat based on EW 56, 92 and 261 where Ellen White describes what became of the HP and the unbelieving when Jesus relocated to the MHP.

It is true that the sanctuary service was to be anointed in one smooth process. However, Jesus Himself was not anointed until 27AD. Even though the benefits of the sanctuary were in existence before Jesus was anointed yet the process of the sanctuary service was a "shadow" of how the heavenly sanctuary work was to be accomplished. Our job is to keep studying and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us step by step in our understandings.

Ellen White wrote - "The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill." {GC 488.2}

I also agree that from our human perspective Jesus was anointed by John the Baptist in the Jordan river in AD 27, and that this act fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27. However, I wonder if Jesus wasn't also anointed by the Father when Adam and Eve sinned?

"From this time four hundred and eighty-three years extend to the autumn of A. D. 27. According to the prophecy, this period was to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One. In A. D. 27, Jesus at His baptism received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and soon afterward began His ministry. Then the message was proclaimed. "The time is fulfilled." {DA 233.1}

"Angels are God's ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the "express image of His person," "the brightness of His glory," "upholding all things by the word of His power," holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. "A glorious high throne from the beginning," was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); "a scepter of righteousness," the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. "Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary." Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14." {PP 34.2}

"Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore. {PP 63.3}

"Christ could say, "I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30. To Him it is declared, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows." Heb. 1:9. The Father "giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." {DA 180.1}

"For of a truth against Thy Holy Child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done." {AA 67.2}

"The disciples bore the message, and it was enough. John recalled the prophecy concerning the Messiah, "The Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." Isa. 61:1, 2." {DA 217.2}

Mike, was it you who first put this on? I have forgotten, but, I have also read some interesting, thought provoking statements in your posts. I thank you both and others on here for bringing this out, and encouraging us all to study more.

In Christ's Love,

Dora

I will use the "kitty cat icon," so that you can see I am harmless... Who's cat is that anyway? it sure is cute!

let me try to explain better where I am coming from when I ask you questions re Rev.13:8.

You mentioned in another post, when I asked you for Bible texts to show what you were saying about jesus dying from the foundation of the world, that you were going mostly by common sense and logical deductions.

This is a principle of Bible study that I don't understand as valid, if used alone.

When I look at the over all motif of the Bible's sanctuary doctrine; I see really, just two things.

I see a heavenly sanctuary, and I see an earthly sanctuary.

I see the earthly sanctuary called a type or example, or shadow, of the heavenly sanctuary.

And then, my question happens...

If the earthly is a type, or example, of the heavenly; then how can anything on earth, be in reality, a part of the heavenly?

Does the anti-type not cast a "shadow" of the "type.?"

Doesn't a "shadow" need to be casted by something? How could there be a "shadow" of something not there in heaven, but here on earth?

Do you see where I am coming from? How does this line of reasoning sound to you?

However, I also understand the need to be careful not to unravel one truth with another truth. And thank you for bringing that out. But does this derail what I've been suggesting about Rev 13:8? What do you think?

Dora, thank you for expressing your appreciation. It's good to have you aboard. Please feel free to share your questions and comments. That's how we learn from one another. Again, welcome.

David, I just love your kitty cat picture. Thank you for trying to soothe my sensitive soul. I'm sorry I bruise so easily. So, thank you for taking the time to share your objections, questions and comments in a gentle manner.

I also liked how you made a contrast between the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries. Truly the one is the shadow and the other is the substance. And it would be a mistake to blurr the line of distinction. However, I personally don't see a problem with saying earth is the outer court for the heavenly sanctuary, even though the shadow is also located here on earth.

Besides, isn't heaven everywhere? Yes, it's a place somewhere in outer space. But in the bigger scheme of things, isn't earth a part of heaven? It's at least a part of the heavenly common wealth, which no doubt includes all the unfallen worlds. If this thought means anything, then couldn't we also say that earth could be the outer court as well? I mean, it's here where Jesus chose to fulfill His outer court duties.

I realize it's highly unlikely that you'll ever change your mind on this point, and God forbid that I should even attempt to usurp the prerogatives of the Holy Spirit in that regard. But I ask these questions and make these points to justify my observations. Not that you require that of me, but I do expect it of myself. That's all.

Perhaps the outer court issue is causing us to overlook the original question posed for this thread? In what way does it help us discover the answer as to whether or not Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the MHP with the blood of His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross?

Wherever the outer court is, whether here on earth or somewhere else, did Jesus wait until AD 31 to anoint the MHP? or why didn't He wait until 1844? or better yet, why didn't He do it from the foundation of the world?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

How was the Earthly Sanctuary Anointed? Wasn't it by the literal blood of a sacrificial lamb? When did this take place? I don't know the exact year on this one.

Then how was the Heavenly Sanctuary anointed? Wasn't it also by the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb? When did this take place? In 31 AD.

If not, then how we can suggest that Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the MHP?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

This explains, I believe, how Christ was "slain" before the foundation of the world and from the foundation of this world. Christ went down with Lucifer bearing the curse in him so that he may have ample opportunities to repent so the Lord could re-established him in his former glory! But, as we all know, he did not repent. He made the irrevocable decision which decided his fate forever. And yet even after that he was still alive so that the whole universe of God could see his true character. Even after that, it was still true that in Christ, he and his evil angels, did live and move and have their being!

Christ did not leave Lucifer when he fell. He stayed with him. If Christ had not been willing to stay with him, to bear the curse for him, Lucifer would have been crushed instantly!

And that applies to all the other angels who fell and to the fallen human race! Before the fall, it was the truth that in Christ all creatures lived and moved and had their being! The only difference after the fall is that now Jesus, in order to fulfill the plan of redemption, is fully identified with sinners which He looks upon as His brethren! As long as He is allowed to bear the curse in them, they may live and even abuse and pervert the precious gift of His life. But it is all necessary that they may have every opportunity to choose whom they will serve. And the Lord is longsuffering. He puts up with them, with their sins. He says, "You have made Me serve with your sins. You have wearied Me with your iniquities." Isaiah 43:24.

Again, I think we would do well to spend time meditating over this amazing declaration: "The greatest burden that we bear is the burden of sin; if we were left to bear it, it would crush us." D.A.327,328.

May God open our blind eyes that we may see the larger picture of the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is my prayer for us all, for not until one has seen Christ crucified before his eyes, and can see the cross of Christ at every turn, does one know the REALITY of the gospel!

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

That motif, is not concerned with references to a point in time; in most cases, but rather, to the fact that these sanctuaries were indeed annointed.

We know & trust that they were annointed; and if the Bible does not reveal an exact date in some aspect of the sanctuary service - it just means that the references and connections we are trying to make with time frames - may indeed be off base.

God is trying to tell us, as a people, something more significant than a specific point in time for the annointing of the earthly. What could that be?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

I believe if were to allow God's word to stand as it reads, then a door of opportunity would be opened that would otherwise remain closed. All of this is important in the context of asking whether or not Jesus waited until AD 31 to anoint the MHP since it strikes directly at the heart of the sanctuary service and Jesus' role as our heavenly high priest, especially as it relates to the prophecies associated with 1844 and the investigative judgment.

It is my contention that all three apartments of the heavenly sanctuary had to be anointed (i.e., dedicated and commissioned) before Jesus left heaven, that is, before He was incarnated. Why? Because from the beginning to the end of the sanctuary services, from the outer court to the MHP and back to the outer court, Jesus is the alpha and the omega at every step of the journey.

But to suggest that Jesus had to wait until AD 31 in order to anoint the MHP is to suggest that He is not the alpha and omega of our salvation until after He restores paradise lost. That is, Jesus began His journey in the outer court as the incarnate babe of Bethlehem, and He will complete His journey in the outer court as King of the New Earth and the New Jerusalem.

In order for Jesus to be the alpha and omega of the sanctuary and our salvation the entire sanctuary had to be anointed prior to His incarnation as far back in time as the moment Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden. Jesus is all things for all people at all times. When He was a babe in Old Jerusalem He was simultaneously the King of New Jerusalem. For this to be true the heavenly sanctuary had to be completely anointed from start to finish, from the outer court and back again.

By the way, that earth is the outer court is clear from the fact that this is where Jesus startd His sanctuary ministry and it is where He will finish it.

Going back to the courtyard. I believe that the earth is the outer court. Jesus was anointed in the door way, and His washing was His baptism. He was sacrificed at calvary, and His blood was taken to the four corners of the earth through the testimony of His witnesses. I believe that when He went to heaven He anointed the heavenly sanctuary. When He poured out the Holy Spirit on the disciples I believe that He had anointed them and there experience was their standing on the sea of glass at the laver. This experience is what he is trying to prepare us for as well.

Greg, I appreciated your thoughts on the outer court. Well said. Thank you. By the way, did you say when you believe Jesus anointed the MHP? Was it when He ascended back to heaven in AD 31? or was it when He moved into the MHP in 1844? or did He anoint the entire sanctuary back in Eden? or some other time? And what difference does it make?

I don't what the difference is, regarding anointing at Eden or at Pentecost, but I think the bulk of information appears to be that when Jesus came as a man then all the symbolism began to start at a level that we could see.

Mike, do you have any texts or SOP that would indicate that a special service took place at the time of Eden? I know that the special session between the Father and the Son took place then, so anything else you can put on the table would be helpful.
Thanks

From the earthly examples we know that the entire sanctuary (i.e., the outer court, the HP, the MHP, the furnishings and staff, etc) was anoitned before the daily and annual services began.

Why wouldn't it be that way for the heavenly sanctuary too? Why are we suggesting that Jesus anointed the heavenly sanctuary one apartment at a time over the course of thousands of years? Moses didn't anoint the earthly sanctuary one piece at a time. Why would Jesus do it that way?

The point that AB brought up is a good one. The sin problem had to be dealt with before Jesus could initate a time of probation for the human race. Otherwise, Adam and Eve would have died the moment they disobeyed and none of us would have been born.

Dealing with the sin problem involves every aspect of the sanctuary from start to finish. But in order for this to be a possibility the entire sanctuary had to be anointed from start to finish. For this reason alone Jesus could not wait until AD 31 to anoint the MHP.

God isn't dealing with the sin problem as He goes along, making it up as time and circumstances change. From God's infinite perspective, paradise lost to paradise restored is a done deal. And just because it is also played out within our time frame does not mean that it isn't already a reality from God's point of view.

Yes, God's foreknowledge and timeless perspective is based on what will happen according to how it plays out from our perspective, but that doesn't alter the fact that some things were accomplished before Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden (i.e., Jesus anointed the entire sanctuary).

Some of the things that have been a reality for God from eternity past but are also based on our calendar of reality, would include the birth of Jesus, His baptism, His death, resurrection and ascension, His daily ministry in the HP, and His annual ministry in the MHP.

However, I do not believe that Jesus waited until AD 31 or 1844 to anoint any part of the heavenly sanctuary, and I base this belief on the necessity of the entire sanctuary needing to be anointed and/or dedicated before any part of it could be used to save mankind in his fallen condition. Why? Because there is no part of the sanctuary that was unnecessary before AD 31 or 1844 or the second advent or the new earth.

Does this make sense to anyone else besides me?

Greg, I'm not aware of any passage where a special anointing service for the heavenly sanctuary happened at any time. That's not to say there isn't something out there.

After His resurrection and before His ascension 40 days later, during His special trip to heaven (to hear His Father's acceptance of His sacrifice), Jesus would have entered the MHP to anoint it with His blood, then back to the HP to anoint it with His blood, and then back to earth (the outer court) to anoint it with His blood. Thus type would have fulfilled antitype.

But I am struggling to understand this logic. How about the rest of you? Here's some reasons why I'm not sure I can accept these ideas:

1. Exodus 30:22-33 is where the Bible describes the anointing of the earthly sanctuary. If this truly foreshadows how Jesus anointed the heavenly sanctuary, and I have no reason to believe that it doesn't, then we are immediately faced with some difficulties. First of all, blood was not used to anoint the sanctuary. A special holy oil was connocted for that express purpose. And secondly, the entire sanctuary from the MHP to the outer court and everything in between was anointed with holy oil before the daily and annual services began.

2. Beginning with the second concern mentioned above. Jesus could not have gotten as far as the Cross without first anointing the MHP, the HP and the outer court. And He wouldn't have used blood to anoint the sanctuary. He would have used oil. So, the idea that Jesus had to wait to anoint the MHP with His blodd in AD 31 seems to deviate from the example of the earthly sanctuary.

Another stronghold advocated by people who say Jesus had to anoint the MHP in AD 31 is the idea that Daniel 9:24 predicts that Jesus would anoint the MHP before the end of the 70 week prophecy. The phrase - "Seventy weeks are determined upon the people and upon thy holy city... to anoint the most Holy." - they interpret to mean that Jesus would anoint the MHP in AD 31. But here's my concerns:

1. Daniel 9:24 lists several other things that the Jews had to fulfill before AD 34 in order to remain God's chosen nation. Why assume that the "most Holy" refers to the MHP in heaven and that Messiah was the one anointed to anoint it? The context makes it clear that the Jews were the one who were supposed to anoint the most Holy. But how would they get to heaven to do it?

2. It makes more sense to me, and seems to be more consistent with the prophecy, to suggest that the "most Holy" which needed to be anointed before the end of the 70 weeks, is the Messiah. Isn't that what happened when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan? And when you read Dan 9:24-27 the context is mostly about Jesus' earthly ministry during His 3 1/2 years on earth.

Are there any proponents of the AD 31 anointing theory who would like to address these concerns?

Just an initial thought here for now in regards to your number one point above..

You have to remember, Jesus was a Jew.

Would anyone else care to join this discussion?

I will reply to your question re Dan.9 later; but I have a few relevant comments to this topic that should get the hard drives whirring a little more...

Relatively Speaking

To put it in a simple as possible form; we could say that the theory of relativity presumes that the four quadrants of the space-time entity are a unified, integrated field, with integrative principles.

This means that our conceptions of physical realities exist “in” space, and this is how we currently come up with our ideas in the existence of boundaries and limits in space-time; and we will then see these boundaries as somehow constraining the behavior of what we physically see as existing “in” space-time.

On planet Earth, such boundaries are described by us in the form of various physical laws and constants. Scientists cal it the “Relational Matrix Model.”

The specific relationships of space-time seems unclear at best; and exactly how time effects the constants that we perceive in the areas of velocity, mass, and energy is really unknown.

And, one more important note to make before getting to the text of Rev.13:8 above is the fact that science, (cosmology in this case), cannot establish moral judgements, or principles.

How can it? If scientific theories, as we know them, keep on changing from time to time, where then, is the real Truth?

The only real Truth we have, is what we actually see and what the Bible says. How can it be safe to venture onto scientific ground, to establish or validate any Biblical Truth?

What does the Bible mean, when it says “from the foundation of the world?” How does this phrase affect what we know of the death of Christ, and His ministry in the sanctuary?

Mike Lowe said to me in an e mail, about a year ago:
Quote by Mike Lowe (I added the numbers to divide the quote into three parts)….

1) “What is a reality in time and space for us - that is, Jesus died in Jerusalem in 31 AD - has been and still is a reality for God now and forever.

2) In other words, the death of Jesus is not limited to a place and time for God. And neither should it be for us. The cross of Christ is just as real now as it was in the Garden of Eden.

3) At any rate, that's how I finally was able to make sense of Rev 13:8 without ignoring the obvious meaning of the words employed. “ - end of quote

The only, real sense we can safely apply the theory of relativity, is well illustrated in the following personal example:

My personal theory of relativity can be explained by an incident that happened last year. I had a severely infected tooth, and the pain was excruciating; and I had to suffer the week-end, until I could see the dentist on Monday. I can understand what Einstein meant when he said: “If you are sitting on a hot stove for a few seconds; it seems like an hour; but if you’re talking with a lovely young girl; it seems like a few seconds.”

But this is where we must draw the lines, when it comes to Biblical concepts of time. The Bible is in agreement with me, when it says things like a thousand years to us, is like one day to the Lord. (2 Peter 3:8 “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”).

So it is, when God says Christ was “slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev.13:8). Sometime before our world was first created, an interesting meeting took place. It was called “The Counsel Of Peace.”

8T.269.005
The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:
"Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,
Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:
And He shall grow up out of His place;
And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .
And He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule upon His throne;
And He shall be a priest upon His throne;
And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V. 270

GC.415.003
The work of Christ as man's intercessor is presented in that beautiful prophecy of Zechariah concerning Him "whose name is the Branch." Says the prophet: "He shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon His [the Father's] throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13.

GC.416.004
"And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." The love of the Father, no less than of the Son, is the fountain of salvation for the lost race. Said Jesus to His disciples before He went away: "I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loveth you." John 16:26, 27. God was "in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. And in the ministration in the sanctuary above, "the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

In terms of a time reference, we are not told anything that would change our current understanding of when did Christ first enter the MHP. Revelation 13 is not intended as any measure of time for the sanctuary ministry of Christ; it is intended to portray God’s omnipresence, and omniscience, in terms of the plan of salvation being formed, only. Meaning that God planned our salvation, since before the world began. No reference to the sanctuary is implied here:

PP.063.003
Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race.

But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore.

The plan of salvation was “laid” before the foundation of the world; but was not in any part carried out, except as we know it in Bible prophecy.

I'm not sure though that we can divorce Rev 13:8 from the sanctuary message. If that's what you meant to say? The two seem related to me. But I suppose the eternal and efficacious nature of Jesus' substitutional death, as it relates to terrestial time-space limitations, does not depend upon a single Bible verse.

That God, and even the angels, possess the ability to operate outside our three dimensional laws should go without saying. After His resurrection Jesus was able to appear and disappear through closed doors. The miracles of God also indicate the existence of laws that function outside any laws we have been able to utilize.

Is it so far fetched to suggest that there are laws that apply to only the Godhead? Just to name a few. The ability to... 1) Speak things into existence, 2) Know the end from the beginning, 3) Be everywhere at once, 4) Become a human being, 5) Lay down and take up His own life.

And would it be presumptuous to add to this list the ability to occupy eternity? to transcend the temporal restrictions of time and space as we know it? In other words, is it possible for God to travel through time without disrupting our time continuum? Does God truly inhabit "eternity" (Isa 57:15)? Is Jesus truly the "alpha and omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev 1:8 and 21:6)?

Since it is clear from the Bible that Jesus does indeed inhabit eternity, and that He is truly the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, then who and what are we to suggest that Rev 13:8 cannot possibly mean what it says? If God was trying to tell us that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, then how could He have stated it any clearer than Rev 13:8 - "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." How else could He have made it more obvious?

If, as Peter wrote, one of our days is like a thousand years for God, wouldn't that suggest that God's time is not the same as our time? If we were able to cram a thousand years into one day can you imagine what we might be able to accomplish in a month - 30,000 years? Think about it. Would it make God more or less personal if He had a thousands years for every one of our days? He would certainly have plenty of time for each and everyone of us, and time to spare for the others not of our world.

Okay, enough of that. I'm looking forward to the thoughts you're preparing for your next post.

"Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even

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with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people."

What the ceremony was is not stated. We can only imagine that it was the fulfilment of the ceremonies described in Scripture.

Going back to the concept of the sanctuary being anointed at the beginning. Again, I would disagree on the principle of the fact that Jesus did not die until 31 AD. The sanctuary appeared to be fully functional on the principle of the promise of God. So the life, death, and blood of Jesus was available to cleanse sin based on the promise of God that He would be able to accomplish all these things in the future. So we know that Jesus did not have physical blood to dedicate and anoint the furniture in the sanctuary. But to God the fact that it was an accomplished fact, before time began, was sufficient for Him to start the process.

An example of that is for us. Are we in heaven now? According to the Spirit of Prophecy is yes, by faith. We are standing on the sea of glass today. We are actively participating in the heavenly processes because that is where our hearts and minds are to be. We are not physcially there yet, but that appears to be an incidental as far as God is concerned. We are there by faith.

Five posts back, on Dec 14 at 09:51 pm, I posted several questions and comments concerning the difference between using blood and using oil to anoint the sanctuary. Would you mind responding to those observations? I suspect these questions will add greatly to this discussion. Thank you.

GC 666.1 "In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:11, 12.

GC 668.4 "As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life."

Also, on Dec 14 at 09:51 pm, several questions and comments were posted concerning the difference between using blood and using oil to anoint the sanctuary. Would anybody mind responding to those observations? I suspect dealing with these questions will add greatly to this discussion. Thank you.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

One other intersting side light. When His side was opened was that the antitype of the "sleep" of the first Adam, and the material taken from His side was used to create His helpmeet?

Jesus was first the Lamb of God, and then He was slain for the sins of mankind, and then He rose to serve as our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. If the OT example of anointing the sanctuary first, the priest next, and finally the daily work began followed by the annual day of atonement - if any of this means anything at all, then all of it should matter completely. At least that's what makes sense to me right now.

Therefore, if the OT is the pattern Jesus first established, and then later demonstrated (and still is), why wouldn't we also conclude that Jesus anointed the heavenly sanctuary (the one He served under) with oil, not blood, sometime BEFORE His incarnation, or no later than BEFORE His substitutionary death on the cross?

If the OT model actually depicts the pattern Jesus is following, then He would have anointed all three apartments of the heavenly sanctuary with oil before giving His life and death for us on the altar in the outer court. Then His blood would have been used during His inaugural ceremony, along with oil, to anoint Him as our high priest. Which would then allow Jesus to perform the daily in the holy place until 1844, and finally the annual day of atonement until the close of time.

To suggest any other order or sequence of events seems to disregard the clear OT example, which was based on the ministry of Jesus. If we're going to insist on a different pattern for Jesus, then I believe we should show just cause for our choices. So far, we haven't properly addressed these concerns. Is there any way we can direct this study to that end?

On a side note, your musing about the opening of Jesus' side and how it might correspond to Adam and his help mate is indeed interesting. I don't know. The thought never occurred to me before. What about His other wounds? What are the parallels?

In reference to the other wounds, I believe that his blood anointed His head, His hands and His feet. Just as in Leviticus 8:23.

According to the examples you gave Jesus anointed the earthly BEFORE He shed His blood on the cross, did He not also anoint the heavenly with oil BEFORE He shed His blood?

If Jesus anointed the earthly with the oil of His presence, then isn't possible that He also anointed the heavenly with the oil of His presence long before His incarnation?

I will need to review this again with this in mind.

What are your thoughts re this exerpt from ML Andeason's book called "The Sabbath?" Do you see any connection with this quote, and Rev.13:8?

"We can understand how God can bless human beings.

We can even understand how He can bless animals and give them their work to do in carrying out God’s purpose; but how can God bless a day, a division of time, neither animate nor inanimate, not alive nor dead, a thing without substance, a conception rather than a reality; time, which defies definition, though all mankind is aware of its existence and reality?

How can time be blessed so as to be a blessing to man?"

"The answer is that time does not have any virtue or power in itself to be a blessing or a help to others.

Time is as impersonal as space, and equally inconceivable.

One difference between the two is noticeable: space extends in all directions, while time might be compared to a one-way road, permitting traffic in one direction only.

Man has no power over time, to hasten or retard it. Whether he will or not, he is carried along with it, and despite all protests is one day older tomorrow than he is today. He cannot reverse the process, however much he may wish to do so. Time is superior to him, and he obeys its mandates."

"There are those who believe that God did not create time, but that in some way He found it already existing. But this cannot be. Time and space are not self-existent entities, operating apart from God and independent of Him.

If that were true, they would be equal with God, or even His superior; for that which is coeval with God or exists prior to God must at least be equal with Him; and that which is not created by God is self-existent and is God. The Christian believes that “without Him was not anything made that was made,” and that time and space are created by God as verily as anything else He has made. John 1:3."

"Though the two conceptions of time and space are beyond human comprehension, each is helpful in understanding the other. Our conception of space, for example, helps us to understand time better, and how it is possible for God to bless time." (The Sabbath, pp. 54, 55 - M. L. Andreasen)

There can be no concept of eternity without the concept of time. As Andreasen noted, if all things were created by Jesus Christ, then He created time. Speaking as Paul, “after the manner of men” for lack of better words, there was a period in history before time or eternity existed. Christ, being the author of time, must also be the author of eternity as we know it.

Therefore, Christ, the Son of God, was begotten before time and eternity existed since it was Christ who brought these into being. With this understanding we can see how Jesus “was with God from all eternity” and yet also the literal Son of God begotten before Bethlehem.

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]

Or did I miss something?