Mike
I will reply to your question re Dan.9 later; but I have a few relevant comments to this topic that should get the hard drives whirring a little more...
Relatively Speaking
To put it in a simple as possible form; we could say that the theory of relativity presumes that the four quadrants of the space-time entity are a unified, integrated field, with integrative principles.
This means that our conceptions of physical realities exist “in” space, and this is how we currently come up with our ideas in the existence of boundaries and limits in space-time; and we will then see these boundaries as somehow constraining the behavior of what we physically see as existing “in” space-time.
On planet Earth, such boundaries are described by us in the form of various physical laws and constants. Scientists cal it the “Relational Matrix Model.”
The specific relationships of space-time seems unclear at best; and exactly how time effects the constants that we perceive in the areas of velocity, mass, and energy is really unknown.
And, one more important note to make before getting to the text of Rev.13:8 above is the fact that science, (cosmology in this case), cannot establish moral judgements, or principles.
How can it? If scientific theories, as we know them, keep on changing from time to time, where then, is the real Truth?
The only real Truth we have, is what we actually see and what the Bible says. How can it be safe to venture onto scientific ground, to establish or validate any Biblical Truth?
What does the Bible mean, when it says “from the foundation of the world?” How does this phrase affect what we know of the death of Christ, and His ministry in the sanctuary?
Mike Lowe said to me in an e mail, about a year ago:
Quote by Mike Lowe (I added the numbers to divide the quote into three parts)….
1) “What is a reality in time and space for us - that is, Jesus died in Jerusalem in 31 AD - has been and still is a reality for God now and forever.
2) In other words, the death of Jesus is not limited to a place and time for God. And neither should it be for us. The cross of Christ is just as real now as it was in the Garden of Eden.
3) At any rate, that's how I finally was able to make sense of Rev 13:8 without ignoring the obvious meaning of the words employed. “ - end of quote
The only, real sense we can safely apply the theory of relativity, is well illustrated in the following personal example:
My personal theory of relativity can be explained by an incident that happened last year. I had a severely infected tooth, and the pain was excruciating; and I had to suffer the week-end, until I could see the dentist on Monday. I can understand what Einstein meant when he said: “If you are sitting on a hot stove for a few seconds; it seems like an hour; but if you’re talking with a lovely young girl; it seems like a few seconds.”
But this is where we must draw the lines, when it comes to Biblical concepts of time. The Bible is in agreement with me, when it says things like a thousand years to us, is like one day to the Lord. (2 Peter 3:8 “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”).
So it is, when God says Christ was “slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev.13:8). Sometime before our world was first created, an interesting meeting took place. It was called “The Counsel Of Peace.”
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The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:
"Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,
Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:
And He shall grow up out of His place;
And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .
And He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule upon His throne;
And He shall be a priest upon His throne;
And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V. 270
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The work of Christ as man's intercessor is presented in that beautiful prophecy of Zechariah concerning Him "whose name is the Branch." Says the prophet: "He shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon His [the Father's] throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." Zechariah 6:12, 13.
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"And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." The love of the Father, no less than of the Son, is the fountain of salvation for the lost race. Said Jesus to His disciples before He went away: "I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loveth you." John 16:26, 27. God was "in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. And in the ministration in the sanctuary above, "the counsel of peace shall be between Them both." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
In terms of a time reference, we are not told anything that would change our current understanding of when did Christ first enter the MHP. Revelation 13 is not intended as any measure of time for the sanctuary ministry of Christ; it is intended to portray God’s omnipresence, and omniscience, in terms of the plan of salvation being formed, only. Meaning that God planned our salvation, since before the world began. No reference to the sanctuary is implied here:
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Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race.
But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore.
The plan of salvation was “laid” before the foundation of the world; but was not in any part carried out, except as we know it in Bible prophecy.