Be prepared to back up your response with Scripture and/or SOP.

Chap. 241 - No Excuse for Failure

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18. {TMK 247.1}

Many fail to recognize the claims that God has upon them. They profess to be sons and daughters of God, but they do not behave as children of God. They argue that their evil habits and customs which they followed when they served under the black banner of the prince of darkness must be excused on the ground of their weakness, while they claim that "it is their way." . . . Their objectionable hereditary traits of character they choose to retain as idols. {TMK 247.2}

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. Among those who profess to be servants of Christ an earnest purpose should be cultivated, such as Daniel manifested in the courts of Babylon. He knew that God was his strength and his shield, his front guard and his rear guard. Amid the corruptions that surrounded him in the courts of Babylon he kept himself free from those sights and sounds which would allure him and draw him into temptation. When his duties required that he be present at scenes of revelry, intemperance, and basest idolatry, he cultivated the habit of silent prayer, and thus he was kept by the power of God. To have the mind uplifted to God will be a benefit in all times and in all places.... {TMK 247.3}

Let the soul cultivate the habit of contemplating the world's Redeemer. . . . Help has been laid upon One that is mighty. Jesus has given His life, that every soul might have abundant help in Him. . . . {TMK 247.4}

Will you who read these words resolve that you will never again seek to excuse your defects of character by saying, "It is my way"? Let no one declare, "I cannot change my natural habits and tendencies." The truth must be admitted into the soul, and it will work the sanctification of the character. It will refine and elevate the life, and fit you for an entrance into the mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him. {TMK 247.5}

Chap. 242 - Battlefield of the Soul

As for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever. Ps. 41:12. {TMK 248.1}

Some regard sin as altogether so light a matter that they have no defense against its indulgence or consequence. . . . With some . . . , religion is purely a thing of feeling. You will see a fair show of fervor and devotedness for a time, but soon a change comes. . . . They want a sip of the pleasure of excitement--the ballroom, the dance, and the show. . . . {TMK 248.2}

If you suppose for a moment that God will treat sin lightly or make provisions or exemptions so that you can go on in committing sin, and the soul suffer no penalty for thus doing, it is a terrible delusion of Satan. Any willful violation of the righteous law of Jehovah exposes your soul to the full assaults of Satan. When you lose your conscious integrity your soul becomes a battlefield for Satan. You have doubts and fears enough to paralyze your energies and drive you to discouragement. The favor of God is gone. Some . . . have tried to supply its place and seek compensation for the loss of the Holy Spirit's witness that you are a child of God, in worldly excitement in the society of worldlings. In short, you have plunged deeper into sin. . . . {TMK 248.3}

Remember that temptation is not sin. Remember that however trying the circumstances in which a man may be placed, nothing can really weaken his soul so long as he does not yield to temptation but maintains his own integrity. The interests most vital to you individually are in your own keeping. No one can damage them without your consent. All the satanic legions cannot injure you unless you open your soul to the arrows of Satan. As long as you are firm to do right, your ruin can never take place. If there is not pollution of mind in yourself, all the surrounding pollution cannot taint and defile you. {TMK 248.4}

Eternal life is worth everything to us or it is worth nothing. Those only who put forth persevering effort and untiring zeal with intense desire proportionate to the object they are in pursuit of, will gain that life that measures with the life of God. {TMK 248.5}

1 John 5:18 We know <1492> (5758) that <3754> whosoever <3956> is born <1080> (5772) of <1537> God <2316> sinneth <264> (5719) not <3756>; but <235> he that is begotten <1080> (5685) of <1537> God <2316> keepeth <5083> (5719) himself <1438>, and <2532> that wicked one <4190> toucheth <680> (5731) him <846> not <3756>.

1st John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1st John 3:
4 ¶ Whosoever <3956> committeth <4160> (5723) sin <266> transgresseth <4160> (5719) <458> <0> also <2532> the law <458>: for <2532> sin <266> is <2076> (5748) the transgression of the law <458>.
5 And <2532> ye know <1492> (5758) that <3754> he <1565> was manifested <5319> (5681) to <2443> take away <142> (5661) our <2257> sins <266>; and <2532> in <1722> him <846> is <2076> (5748) no <3756> sin <266>.
6 Whosoever <3956> abideth <3306> (5723) in <1722> him <846> sinneth <264> (5719) not <3756>: whosoever <3956> sinneth <264> (5723) hath <3708> <0> not <3756> seen <3708> (5758) him <846>, neither <3761> known <1097> (5758) him <846>.
7 Little children <5040>, let <4105> <0> no man <3367> deceive <4105> (5720) you <5209>: he that doeth <4160> (5723) righteousness <1343> is <2076> (5748) righteous <1342>, even as <2531> he <1565> is <2076> (5748) righteous <1342>.
8 He that committeth <4160> (5723) sin <266> is <2076> (5748) of <1537> the devil <1228>; for <3754> the devil <1228> sinneth <264> (5719) from <575> the beginning <746>. For <1519> this purpose <5124> the Son <5207> of God <2316> was manifested <5319> (5681), that <2443> he might destroy <3089> (5661) the works <2041> of the devil <1228>.
9 Whosoever <3956> is born <1080> (5772) of <1537> God <2316> doth <4160> (5719) not <3756> commit sin <266>; for <3754> his <846> seed <4690> remaineth <3306> (5719) in <1722> him <846>: and <2532> he cannot <3756> <1410> (5736) sin <264> (5721), because <3754> he is born <1080> (5769) of <1537> God <2316>.
10 In <1722> this <5129> the children <5043> of God <2316> are <2076> (5748) manifest <5318>, and <2532> the children <5043> of the devil <1228>: whosoever <3956> doeth <4160> (5723) not <3361> righteousness <1343> is <2076> (5748) not <3756> of <1537> God <2316>, neither <2532> he that loveth <25> (5723) not <3361> his <846> brother <80>.

See also Indexed references to 1st John 4: 4-10
4:4 TDG 216:2; 266:1

4:6 FW 48:1; NL 35:2; RC 218:7; TDG 217:4

4:7 LHU 82:k; OHC 175:k; RC 92:k; RY 164:0; TDG 365:1

4:8 FLB 59:k; HP 110:1; 291:1; LHU 36:1; 158:3; 252:3; OHC 175 RC 62:2; TDG 272:6; 327:3; UL 104:1; 129:3; 244:4

4:8 , 9 LHU 134:2

4:9 HP 14:k

4:10 AG 176:k; FW 105:3; LHU 207:3; 207:k; 248:4; 297:3; 319:3; 1MCP 249:4; 251:2; OHC 12:k; 18:4; RC 58:4; 75:2; TDG 265:7; 357:1; TMK 69:k; 255:2; 344:2; TSB 108:1; UL 223:

4:10 , 11 CC 357:k; RC 316:k

Is this claiming holy flesh for a converted person or describing the results of an inward change through conversion, that refuses both the call of temptations externally and human nature’s weakness after sin by abiding inside the life of Jesus ? Is a converted person physically capable of sinning - Yes . Spiritually - yes (Adam & Eve were sinless and were converted), but when they deliberately sinned were they still converted ? No. Is conversion progressive - Yes. Is it as trial free for a backslider as a new believer - NO. The backslider has damaged their conscience. As the new believer learns more they put away the old and follow what they have learned.

Scripture shows that at the Second Coming - redeemed people will put on holy flesh because Jesus changes them. Holy flesh will be a sinless physical nature that can not be tempted, like the nature of Jesus during & after His resurrection.
See -
1st Corinthians 15:
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture also shows that before the redeemed have their Redeemer leaves His office of Redeemership, He fixes or seals their character. From then on they are settled into what ever they have choosen.

See -
Revelation 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 11 tells of His sealing all humanity as sheep or goats. Verse 12 tell what He is about to do. Verse 13 tells why He alone is the One qualified and authorized to do it. Verse 14 & 15 tell the basis upon which the two groups are judged & rewarded. One group used the Redeemers progressive offer & followed him (conversion), the other did not.

The next question ought to be, what does the Bible & SOP references describe as true conversion?

Is that Conversion described by Scripture & SOP the only connection to God that He recognizes and accepts ?

Does unknown sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

Does known sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

Does unconfessed sin - unrepented of sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

How do you get this conversion, how do you maintain it, what if you sin, what then does God dump you, what does the Bible & SOP references describe ?

Do you want to risk this as an opinion swapping discussion or find out, what does the Bible & SOP references describe; this side of the judgement while there is still time offered ?

Here is how I feel about this type of questions this topic brings up. This is not one of those subjects it is good to discuss by swapping opinions upon. It is better to research what inspiration says about it & what ever the consensus of inspiration is, let that be the truth as it stands. Am I saying I have researched this all out & am baiting folks with coy answers, NO . I will begin to start compiling on this topic my self also.
SOP Search suggestions:
“True conversion”
“genuine conversion”
“conversion is”
“is the new birth”
“new birth consists”

I have heard others qualify this question with a yes / no type answer.

They have said that in the original language the words for sin in these texts went in both ways as a singular action & a lifestyle senerio or trend.

I will be intresting to look up languages & cross reference & search SOP on the subject. But first to prayer till God opens the door to study with His help. After all it is on His side of the fence. Conversion is a supernatural work .

Again I ask that you be prepared to back up your response with Scripture and/or SOP.

I am not quite ready to go where Ed went in his post until I receive some answers to my particular question.

As Martin Luther said: "Simul Peccator et Justus." Simultaneously sinner and just!

It is a state of dual existence. The simultaneity of peace and misery. Peace is interpersed with the cruel reality of the devil's power.

Paul was a saint. He would rather have sacrificed life itself rather than knowingly commit one wrong act. C.O.L.160. He confessed himself to be "the chief of sinners." Not that he was sinning. No. No. What he meant by that was that he was continually aware of the exceeding sinfulness of his nature. He knew that without the grace of Christ, His Spirit, to help his infirmities, he could not form a Christian character!

PC.405.002
The Jews, in Christ's day, in the exercise of their own spirit of self exaltation, brought in rigid rules and exactions, and so took away all chance for God to work upon minds, until mercy and the love of God were entirely lost sight of in their work. {something we commonly see in self-proclaimed "watchmen"} It was this which caused rulers to lay upon the people the heavy burdens of which they justly complained, which our Saviour condemned. Do not follow in their track. Leave God a chance to do something for those who love him, and do not impose upon them rules and regulations, which, if followed, will leave them as destitute of the grace of God as were the hills of Gilboa, without dew or rain.

Your very many resolutions need to be reduced to one third their number, and great care should be taken as to what resolutions are framed. Ours is missionary ground, having many advantages; and if wisely improved, a much larger number of workers would be fitted to go out into the field, as pastors and evangelists; but shortness of vision, and the narrowness of mind in some, have circumscribed the work.

There is need of having vigorous efforts put forth in the churches in every conference. A living message, showing the living features of our times should be presented to them, not in a tame, lifeless style, but in the demonstration of the Spirit, and in the power of God. Responsibilities must be laid upon individual members of the church . A missionary spirit should be awakened, and wise workers appointed as they are needed, who will be active pastors , making personal efforts to bring the church up to that condition where spiritual death will not be seen in all her borders.

Thank the Lord for the assurance, and hope of His Word:

"Ye who were sometimes afar off, are made near, by the blood of Christ." (Eph.2:13).

We all too often fall into deception, because we sanctimoniously utter all our "holy talk;" parroting phrases like "someday; God will make all things new," (in my life), and we take exceptional pride in saying things like "all my righteousness is like filthy rags," and it seems, by some, as they denigrate themselves to a cheap and sinful level, they are "admitting their true condition," and seem to pride themselves as part of God's "special Remnant," because of their "holy talk."

ST.1892-04-04.003
When you remember that Christ has paid the price of his own blood for your redemption and for the redemption of others, you will be moved to catch the bright rays of his righteousness, that you may shed them upon the pathway of those around you. You are not to look to the future, thinking that at some distant day you are to be made holy; it is now that you are to be sanctified through the truth. The prophet exhorts: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

And Jesus says, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me . . . unto the uttermost part of the earth." We are to receive the Holy Ghost. We have had an idea that this gift of God was not for such as we are, that the gift of the Holy Spirit was too sacred, too holy for us; but the Holy Spirit is the Comforter that Christ promised to his disciples to bring all things to their remembrance whatsoever he had said unto them.

Then let us cease to look to ourselves, but look to him from whom all virtue comes. No one can make himself better, but we are to come to Jesus as we are, earnestly desiring to be cleansed from every spot and stain of sin, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We are not to doubt his mercy, and say, "I do not know whether I shall be saved or not." By living faith we must lay hold of his promise, for he has said, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

"Our Father which are in heaven" - are these words for sinners? We do know the words from Peter: "Because it is written, Be you holy; for I am holy." (1.Peter 1:16) or these from John : "Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him" (1.John 3:6) ...

B U T.

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" and then verses 14 and 15...??? Why??? Keep it in mind: these words are for christians for everyday purpose...

Paul knows it from his own experience:
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." (Romans 7:15)

Same as John:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1.John 1:8)

And there is also the answer why M.Luther said it: simultaneously sinner and just!

Is there only one word to describe human beings? People who are quick to remind others that they are a sinner are drawing attention to themselves and give the impression that they are living a life of sin. Is this really a good idea?

If I'm reading the Bible correctly then I get the distinct impression there is a huge difference before and after genuine conversion takes place. For example:

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

This passage tells me that in Christ a born again is not obligated to sin as sinners do.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

According to this scripture "new born babes" who have tasted the grace of God have already laid aside sin. Growth in grace occurs after sin has been laid aside.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Here the apostle clearly contrasts the righteous and the sinners. How can they be the same?

quote:

---

Posted by Mike Lowe:
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Here the apostle clearly contrasts the righteous and the sinners. How can they be the same?

---

"...righteous..."
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

"8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9

"9And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death; 11If by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:9-12

Righteous is not righteous because of he/she is doing right acts, but his/her faith into the real Righteous (Person) makes him/her righteous.

"...where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Some sinners may be "righteous", but some may be "ungodly", but both are sinners because:
"Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalms 51:5

Sinner is not the sinner because he/she is doing ungodly deeds, but because his/her nature is sinful.

But,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1.John 1:8) - then we are not "righteous"!