Be prepared to back up your response with Scripture and/or SOP.

Chap. 241 - No Excuse for Failure

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18. {TMK 247.1}

Many fail to recognize the claims that God has upon them. They profess to be sons and daughters of God, but they do not behave as children of God. They argue that their evil habits and customs which they followed when they served under the black banner of the prince of darkness must be excused on the ground of their weakness, while they claim that "it is their way." . . . Their objectionable hereditary traits of character they choose to retain as idols. {TMK 247.2}

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. Among those who profess to be servants of Christ an earnest purpose should be cultivated, such as Daniel manifested in the courts of Babylon. He knew that God was his strength and his shield, his front guard and his rear guard. Amid the corruptions that surrounded him in the courts of Babylon he kept himself free from those sights and sounds which would allure him and draw him into temptation. When his duties required that he be present at scenes of revelry, intemperance, and basest idolatry, he cultivated the habit of silent prayer, and thus he was kept by the power of God. To have the mind uplifted to God will be a benefit in all times and in all places.... {TMK 247.3}

Let the soul cultivate the habit of contemplating the world's Redeemer. . . . Help has been laid upon One that is mighty. Jesus has given His life, that every soul might have abundant help in Him. . . . {TMK 247.4}

Will you who read these words resolve that you will never again seek to excuse your defects of character by saying, "It is my way"? Let no one declare, "I cannot change my natural habits and tendencies." The truth must be admitted into the soul, and it will work the sanctification of the character. It will refine and elevate the life, and fit you for an entrance into the mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him. {TMK 247.5}

Chap. 242 - Battlefield of the Soul

As for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever. Ps. 41:12. {TMK 248.1}

Some regard sin as altogether so light a matter that they have no defense against its indulgence or consequence. . . . With some . . . , religion is purely a thing of feeling. You will see a fair show of fervor and devotedness for a time, but soon a change comes. . . . They want a sip of the pleasure of excitement--the ballroom, the dance, and the show. . . . {TMK 248.2}

If you suppose for a moment that God will treat sin lightly or make provisions or exemptions so that you can go on in committing sin, and the soul suffer no penalty for thus doing, it is a terrible delusion of Satan. Any willful violation of the righteous law of Jehovah exposes your soul to the full assaults of Satan. When you lose your conscious integrity your soul becomes a battlefield for Satan. You have doubts and fears enough to paralyze your energies and drive you to discouragement. The favor of God is gone. Some . . . have tried to supply its place and seek compensation for the loss of the Holy Spirit's witness that you are a child of God, in worldly excitement in the society of worldlings. In short, you have plunged deeper into sin. . . . {TMK 248.3}

Remember that temptation is not sin. Remember that however trying the circumstances in which a man may be placed, nothing can really weaken his soul so long as he does not yield to temptation but maintains his own integrity. The interests most vital to you individually are in your own keeping. No one can damage them without your consent. All the satanic legions cannot injure you unless you open your soul to the arrows of Satan. As long as you are firm to do right, your ruin can never take place. If there is not pollution of mind in yourself, all the surrounding pollution cannot taint and defile you. {TMK 248.4}

Eternal life is worth everything to us or it is worth nothing. Those only who put forth persevering effort and untiring zeal with intense desire proportionate to the object they are in pursuit of, will gain that life that measures with the life of God. {TMK 248.5}

1 John 5:18 We know <1492> (5758) that <3754> whosoever <3956> is born <1080> (5772) of <1537> God <2316> sinneth <264> (5719) not <3756>; but <235> he that is begotten <1080> (5685) of <1537> God <2316> keepeth <5083> (5719) himself <1438>, and <2532> that wicked one <4190> toucheth <680> (5731) him <846> not <3756>.

1st John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1st John 3:
4 ¶ Whosoever <3956> committeth <4160> (5723) sin <266> transgresseth <4160> (5719) <458> <0> also <2532> the law <458>: for <2532> sin <266> is <2076> (5748) the transgression of the law <458>.
5 And <2532> ye know <1492> (5758) that <3754> he <1565> was manifested <5319> (5681) to <2443> take away <142> (5661) our <2257> sins <266>; and <2532> in <1722> him <846> is <2076> (5748) no <3756> sin <266>.
6 Whosoever <3956> abideth <3306> (5723) in <1722> him <846> sinneth <264> (5719) not <3756>: whosoever <3956> sinneth <264> (5723) hath <3708> <0> not <3756> seen <3708> (5758) him <846>, neither <3761> known <1097> (5758) him <846>.
7 Little children <5040>, let <4105> <0> no man <3367> deceive <4105> (5720) you <5209>: he that doeth <4160> (5723) righteousness <1343> is <2076> (5748) righteous <1342>, even as <2531> he <1565> is <2076> (5748) righteous <1342>.
8 He that committeth <4160> (5723) sin <266> is <2076> (5748) of <1537> the devil <1228>; for <3754> the devil <1228> sinneth <264> (5719) from <575> the beginning <746>. For <1519> this purpose <5124> the Son <5207> of God <2316> was manifested <5319> (5681), that <2443> he might destroy <3089> (5661) the works <2041> of the devil <1228>.
9 Whosoever <3956> is born <1080> (5772) of <1537> God <2316> doth <4160> (5719) not <3756> commit sin <266>; for <3754> his <846> seed <4690> remaineth <3306> (5719) in <1722> him <846>: and <2532> he cannot <3756> <1410> (5736) sin <264> (5721), because <3754> he is born <1080> (5769) of <1537> God <2316>.
10 In <1722> this <5129> the children <5043> of God <2316> are <2076> (5748) manifest <5318>, and <2532> the children <5043> of the devil <1228>: whosoever <3956> doeth <4160> (5723) not <3361> righteousness <1343> is <2076> (5748) not <3756> of <1537> God <2316>, neither <2532> he that loveth <25> (5723) not <3361> his <846> brother <80>.

See also Indexed references to 1st John 4: 4-10
4:4 TDG 216:2; 266:1

4:6 FW 48:1; NL 35:2; RC 218:7; TDG 217:4

4:7 LHU 82:k; OHC 175:k; RC 92:k; RY 164:0; TDG 365:1

4:8 FLB 59:k; HP 110:1; 291:1; LHU 36:1; 158:3; 252:3; OHC 175 RC 62:2; TDG 272:6; 327:3; UL 104:1; 129:3; 244:4

4:8 , 9 LHU 134:2

4:9 HP 14:k

4:10 AG 176:k; FW 105:3; LHU 207:3; 207:k; 248:4; 297:3; 319:3; 1MCP 249:4; 251:2; OHC 12:k; 18:4; RC 58:4; 75:2; TDG 265:7; 357:1; TMK 69:k; 255:2; 344:2; TSB 108:1; UL 223:

4:10 , 11 CC 357:k; RC 316:k

Is this claiming holy flesh for a converted person or describing the results of an inward change through conversion, that refuses both the call of temptations externally and human nature’s weakness after sin by abiding inside the life of Jesus ? Is a converted person physically capable of sinning - Yes . Spiritually - yes (Adam & Eve were sinless and were converted), but when they deliberately sinned were they still converted ? No. Is conversion progressive - Yes. Is it as trial free for a backslider as a new believer - NO. The backslider has damaged their conscience. As the new believer learns more they put away the old and follow what they have learned.

Scripture shows that at the Second Coming - redeemed people will put on holy flesh because Jesus changes them. Holy flesh will be a sinless physical nature that can not be tempted, like the nature of Jesus during & after His resurrection.
See -
1st Corinthians 15:
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture also shows that before the redeemed have their Redeemer leaves His office of Redeemership, He fixes or seals their character. From then on they are settled into what ever they have choosen.

See -
Revelation 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 11 tells of His sealing all humanity as sheep or goats. Verse 12 tell what He is about to do. Verse 13 tells why He alone is the One qualified and authorized to do it. Verse 14 & 15 tell the basis upon which the two groups are judged & rewarded. One group used the Redeemers progressive offer & followed him (conversion), the other did not.

The next question ought to be, what does the Bible & SOP references describe as true conversion?

Is that Conversion described by Scripture & SOP the only connection to God that He recognizes and accepts ?

Does unknown sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

Does known sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

Does unconfessed sin - unrepented of sin separate you from God, what does the Bible & SOP references describe?

How do you get this conversion, how do you maintain it, what if you sin, what then does God dump you, what does the Bible & SOP references describe ?

Do you want to risk this as an opinion swapping discussion or find out, what does the Bible & SOP references describe; this side of the judgement while there is still time offered ?

Here is how I feel about this type of questions this topic brings up. This is not one of those subjects it is good to discuss by swapping opinions upon. It is better to research what inspiration says about it & what ever the consensus of inspiration is, let that be the truth as it stands. Am I saying I have researched this all out & am baiting folks with coy answers, NO . I will begin to start compiling on this topic my self also.
SOP Search suggestions:
“True conversion”
“genuine conversion”
“conversion is”
“is the new birth”
“new birth consists”

I have heard others qualify this question with a yes / no type answer.

They have said that in the original language the words for sin in these texts went in both ways as a singular action & a lifestyle senerio or trend.

I will be intresting to look up languages & cross reference & search SOP on the subject. But first to prayer till God opens the door to study with His help. After all it is on His side of the fence. Conversion is a supernatural work .

Again I ask that you be prepared to back up your response with Scripture and/or SOP.

I am not quite ready to go where Ed went in his post until I receive some answers to my particular question.

As Martin Luther said: "Simul Peccator et Justus." Simultaneously sinner and just!

It is a state of dual existence. The simultaneity of peace and misery. Peace is interpersed with the cruel reality of the devil's power.

Paul was a saint. He would rather have sacrificed life itself rather than knowingly commit one wrong act. C.O.L.160. He confessed himself to be "the chief of sinners." Not that he was sinning. No. No. What he meant by that was that he was continually aware of the exceeding sinfulness of his nature. He knew that without the grace of Christ, His Spirit, to help his infirmities, he could not form a Christian character!

PC.405.002
The Jews, in Christ's day, in the exercise of their own spirit of self exaltation, brought in rigid rules and exactions, and so took away all chance for God to work upon minds, until mercy and the love of God were entirely lost sight of in their work. {something we commonly see in self-proclaimed "watchmen"} It was this which caused rulers to lay upon the people the heavy burdens of which they justly complained, which our Saviour condemned. Do not follow in their track. Leave God a chance to do something for those who love him, and do not impose upon them rules and regulations, which, if followed, will leave them as destitute of the grace of God as were the hills of Gilboa, without dew or rain.

Your very many resolutions need to be reduced to one third their number, and great care should be taken as to what resolutions are framed. Ours is missionary ground, having many advantages; and if wisely improved, a much larger number of workers would be fitted to go out into the field, as pastors and evangelists; but shortness of vision, and the narrowness of mind in some, have circumscribed the work.

There is need of having vigorous efforts put forth in the churches in every conference. A living message, showing the living features of our times should be presented to them, not in a tame, lifeless style, but in the demonstration of the Spirit, and in the power of God. Responsibilities must be laid upon individual members of the church . A missionary spirit should be awakened, and wise workers appointed as they are needed, who will be active pastors , making personal efforts to bring the church up to that condition where spiritual death will not be seen in all her borders.

Thank the Lord for the assurance, and hope of His Word:

"Ye who were sometimes afar off, are made near, by the blood of Christ." (Eph.2:13).

We all too often fall into deception, because we sanctimoniously utter all our "holy talk;" parroting phrases like "someday; God will make all things new," (in my life), and we take exceptional pride in saying things like "all my righteousness is like filthy rags," and it seems, by some, as they denigrate themselves to a cheap and sinful level, they are "admitting their true condition," and seem to pride themselves as part of God's "special Remnant," because of their "holy talk."

ST.1892-04-04.003
When you remember that Christ has paid the price of his own blood for your redemption and for the redemption of others, you will be moved to catch the bright rays of his righteousness, that you may shed them upon the pathway of those around you. You are not to look to the future, thinking that at some distant day you are to be made holy; it is now that you are to be sanctified through the truth. The prophet exhorts: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

And Jesus says, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me . . . unto the uttermost part of the earth." We are to receive the Holy Ghost. We have had an idea that this gift of God was not for such as we are, that the gift of the Holy Spirit was too sacred, too holy for us; but the Holy Spirit is the Comforter that Christ promised to his disciples to bring all things to their remembrance whatsoever he had said unto them.

Then let us cease to look to ourselves, but look to him from whom all virtue comes. No one can make himself better, but we are to come to Jesus as we are, earnestly desiring to be cleansed from every spot and stain of sin, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We are not to doubt his mercy, and say, "I do not know whether I shall be saved or not." By living faith we must lay hold of his promise, for he has said, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

"Our Father which are in heaven" - are these words for sinners? We do know the words from Peter: "Because it is written, Be you holy; for I am holy." (1.Peter 1:16) or these from John : "Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him" (1.John 3:6) ...

B U T.

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" and then verses 14 and 15...??? Why??? Keep it in mind: these words are for christians for everyday purpose...

Paul knows it from his own experience:
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." (Romans 7:15)

Same as John:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1.John 1:8)

And there is also the answer why M.Luther said it: simultaneously sinner and just!

Is there only one word to describe human beings? People who are quick to remind others that they are a sinner are drawing attention to themselves and give the impression that they are living a life of sin. Is this really a good idea?

If I'm reading the Bible correctly then I get the distinct impression there is a huge difference before and after genuine conversion takes place. For example:

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

This passage tells me that in Christ a born again is not obligated to sin as sinners do.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

According to this scripture "new born babes" who have tasted the grace of God have already laid aside sin. Growth in grace occurs after sin has been laid aside.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Here the apostle clearly contrasts the righteous and the sinners. How can they be the same?

quote:

---

Posted by Mike Lowe:
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Here the apostle clearly contrasts the righteous and the sinners. How can they be the same?

---

"...righteous..."
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

"8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9

"9And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death; 11If by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:9-12

Righteous is not righteous because of he/she is doing right acts, but his/her faith into the real Righteous (Person) makes him/her righteous.

"...where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Some sinners may be "righteous", but some may be "ungodly", but both are sinners because:
"Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalms 51:5

Sinner is not the sinner because he/she is doing ungodly deeds, but because his/her nature is sinful.

But,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1.John 1:8) - then we are not "righteous"!

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Why didn't it say, I was chief?

Doesn't that say that he still considers himself a sinner, even a chief of sinners?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Either way, I think it's an insult to the plan of salvation to insist that we are sinners even after we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. In the New Earth will we refer to ourselves as "sinners"? I hope not. If the kingdom of heaven begins now in the hearts of born again believers, then why should we continue to focus on our sinful past or sinful flesh nature? I like what Paul wrote:

Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

These passages do not say that born again Christians are sinners. To insist that we are still sinners after the grace of God has set us free from sin confuses the truth about victory over sin.

Also, to insist that 1 John 1:8 means that born again believers are continually guilty of always committing sin and are therefore sinners is to miss the main point John is trying to make. There are two liars he refers to.

1 John
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The first liar is the person who says he has never sinned (past tense). And the second liar is the person who says he's a Christian and yet continues to commit sin (present tense).

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23. This is a truth none can contradict. But the other truth is just as truthful. That is, in Christ we cease from sin. 1 Peter 4:1,2. Yes, we have a history of sin, but in Christ we are free from sin. And not just in the legal sense. The blood of Jesus saves us from the penalty and the power of sin, so that when in christ we live a life without sin.

From my point of view, the converted person who is living without the burden of committing sin is not a sinner, and it would be just as confusing to call him a sinner as it would be to say Jesus was a sinner simply because He possessed sinful flesh. Rom 8:3.

Perfection Not Reached by One Bound-- 1891.--We are looking beyond time; we are looking to eternity. We are trying to live in such a way that Christ can say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." Let us live, every one of us, in that way. We may make mistakes; we may err; but God will not leave us in error. "If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." There is hope for us; we are prisoners of hope. {3SM 192.3}
What If We Sin After We Have Been Forgiven?--1892. --It is the Holy Spirit that imparts repentance to us. Jesus draws us to Himself through the agency of His divine Spirit; and through faith in His blood we are cleansed from sin: "for the blood of Jesus
197
Christ his Son, cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (verse 9). {3SM 196.4}
But suppose that we sin after we have been forgiven, after we have become the children of God, then need we despair?--No: for John writes: "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (chap. 2:1). Jesus is in the heavenly courts, pleading with the Father in our behalf. He presents our prayers, mingling with them the precious incense of His own merit, that our prayers may be acceptable to the Father. He puts the fragrance into our prayers, and the Father hears us because we ask for the very things which we need, and we become to others a savor of life unto life. {3SM 197.1}
If We Sin, He Pleads Our Case in Heaven

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1. {SD 22.1}
The Lord Jehovah did not deem the plan of salvation complete while invested only with His own love. By His appointment He has placed at His altar an Advocate clothed with our nature. As our Intercessor, Christ's office work is to introduce us to God as His sons and daughters. {SD 22.2}

This one I especially liked, it speaks to the heart of those that 'put the hand to the plow', and somewhere along the way failed in some way:
Why, my dear brother, Jesus lives to make intercession for you.... If we sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" (1 John 2:1). The pitying love of God is extended to us in all our wants and in all our imperfections. Jesus loves you, and do respond to that love by cheerfully trusting in Him. Put away from you all sins which would grieve and wound the Saviour. Seek to imitate His holy life and spotless character. . . . But ample provisions have been made by the dear Saviour to purify, to cleanse from all sins, and by His grace to remedy the defects in our character by imputing unto us His righteousness. {UL 328.5}
But we must exercise faith ourselves. We "must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Heb. 11:6). . . . Believe, my brother, believe. My soul says, Believe. Take right hold of the promises of God by faith and appropriate them to yourself. . . . In much love to you and yours, Your sister in Christ, Ellen G. White.--Letter 36, Nov. 10, 1875, to a disheartened layman. {UL 328.6}
Are we sinners? Yes, [Romans3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; ]
are we saints? Yes, [Ps.16:3 to the saints that are in the earth,Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints:] there are several more that came up from the search.
I can't explain how we can be saints and sinners at the same time, any more than I can explain how Jesus was wholey man and wholey God all at the same time.

But the scriptures say so, so, I must believe it.
Remember, it says if ye sin, not when.
Paul admitted he did what he did not want to do, just as we do.
We are to make no provision to sin, but if we do, God has made provision for forgiveness;1 John 2:1.

My $0.02

"October 5, 1897 Judas.
-
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

"The history of Judas presents before us the sad ending of the life of a man who might have been honored of God. By co-operating with Christ, not mechanically, but with heart and soul, Judas might have obtained victory after victory. He was trusted by his fellow disciples, and by his Master he was given a special work to do for the church. He understood the Scriptures, and at times seemed to have large discernment to take in the meaning of the word of God. He could present the words of the Old-Testament Scriptures in an acceptable manner. He had keen perceptive powers, a retentive memory, and was able to communicate the word to others. Had he been a doer of the word, he would have had grace and power from Christ to apply that word to his own soul. Possessing appropriating faith, he would, under the influence of light, have appreciated the presence of the Spirit, would have consecrated his heart, and would have received the seal of oneness with Christ. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 1}

But Judas stopped short of this. He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour. He did not think that his character needed the transforming grace of Christ. In many respects he acted as Christ's disciple. He manifested an interest in his work, and in a certain sense believed on him. But Christ read beneath the surface. He saw the true inwardness of the heart. He knew that Judas was not converted. He was not a true son of God. He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 2}

Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. And by practise this became a habit which he carried into all his trading. His economical habits developed a parsimonious spirit, and became a fatal snare. Gain was his measurement of a correct religious experience, and all true righteousness became subordinate to this. Christlike principles of uprightness and justice had no room in his life practises. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 3}

When Judas first united with the twelve, he manifested a spirit subordinate to his Master. He loved the great Teacher. He had listened to the parables illustrating the gospel of the kingdom of God, and he desired to be with the man whose teaching he knew to be superior to anything he had ever heard, although it was condemnatory of all pretense, hypocrisy, and avarice. There came to him a desire to be changed in spirit and inclination, and he hoped to experience this by connecting himself with Christ. Yes; in the companionship of Christ, Judas might have found continual strength and aid; he might have co-operated with Christ in overcoming temptation, instead of yielding to the suggestions of Satan. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 4}

Knowing that he was being corrupted by covetousness, Christ gave him the privilege of hearing many precious lessons. He heard Christ laying down the principles which all must possess who would enter his kingdom. He was given every opportunity to receive Christ as his personal Saviour, but he refused this gift. He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected. While he continued a disciple in outward form, and while in the very presence of Christ, he appropriated to himself means that belonged to the Lord's treasury. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 5}

Several of the disciples were looked upon by Judas as very deficient. They would not see their opportunities, and take advantage of circumstances. The church, he thought, would never prosper with such short-sighted men. Peter was so impetuous; he would move without consideration. John, who was gathering the power of the truths that fell from the lips of Christ and bringing them into the sanctuary of the soul, was looked upon by Judas as a poor financier, one who could not keep the church free from financial embarrassment. Matthew, who had had an education which qualified him for accuracy in all his undertakings, was very definite and particular in regard to honesty. He was ever contemplating the words of Christ, and became so absorbed in them that he could not be trusted to do sharp, far-seeing business. Thus Judas summed up all the disciples, and flattered himself that the church would often be brought into perplexity and embarrassment if it were not for his managing ability. Judas thought himself the capable one, who would not allow himself to be cheated in a bargain. In his own estimation he was an honor to the cause, and as such he always represented himself. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 6}

Christ's last journey to Jerusalem, whither he went with his disciples to attend the Passover feast, was a fatal one for Judas. Not that it needed to be thus, but he himself made it so by his own course of action. The dissensions which frequently arose among the disciples as to which of them should be greatest, were generally created by Judas. On this occasion this spirit led to the request of James and John that one might sit at the right hand of Christ, and the other on his left, in his kingdom. But Christ taught them that those who were nearest to their Lord in position, were not of special consequence; that those who would bring Christ into the heart as an abiding presence would not selfishly seek the highest position in personal relation to him. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 7}

Thus it is with Christians today. Those who, in the spirit and love of Jesus, become one with him, will be in close fellowship one with another, bound together by the silken cords of love. Then the ties of human brotherhood will not be always on the strain, ready at any provocation to snap asunder. "All ye are brethren," will be the sentiment of every child of faith. When the followers of Christ are one with him, there will be no first and last, no less respected or less important ones. A blessed brotherly fellowship will bind all to Christ in a firm loyalty that cannot be broken. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 8}

The turn that affairs had taken at the feeding of the five thousand had dissatisfied Judas. It was he who had set on foot the project to take Christ by force and make him king. But Christ, with greater authority than he was in the custom of exercising, had rebuked this step. This had provoked Judas, and he became more and more separated from Jesus. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 9}

If Judas had practised the lessons of Christ, he would have surrendered to Christ, he would have consecrated his heart fully to God; but his confused experience was misleading him. When with the disciples, he introduced controversies, doubts, and misleading sentiments, repeating the objections that the scribes and Pharisees urged when questioning the claims of Christ. He did this at first in order to develop his reasoning powers; but the more he gave expression to the unbelieving remarks made, the more he turned them over in his mind, the more doubt and unbelief came in. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 10}

All the little and large troubles and crosses, the difficulties and hindrances to the advancement of the gospel, Judas interpreted as being evidences against its truthfulness. He would introduce texts of Scripture that had no connection with the themes of truth that Jesus was seeking to impress upon the minds and hearts of his disciples. And these texts, separated from their connection, and placed where they had no appropriate bearing and force, confused their minds and increased the discouragements that were constantly pressing in with the suggestions of the scribes and Pharisees. The sayings of the Pharisees also were so used by him to encourage unbelief, and lessen the force of truth upon the minds of the disciples, that Jesus declared of him that he had a devil. Yet all this was done by Judas in such a way as to give the impression that he was conscientious. And while the disciples were searching for evidence to confirm the words of the great Teacher, Judas would lead them almost imperceptibly on another track. Thus in a very religious and apparently wise way he was presenting matters in a different light from that in which Jesus had given them, and attaching to his words a meaning that he never intended to convey. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 11}

The disciples did not see in this the working of the enemy; but Jesus saw that the mind of Judas was open to questionings, doubt, and unbelief which had more or less influence on the other disciples, and that in this way, Satan was communicating his attributes to Judas, and opening up a direct channel through which to work. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 12}

If all could understand the deep trials and discouragements that came to the human nature of Christ in his mission, verily human hearts would draw nigh to the human heart of Jesus. The old nature of the disciples often appeared. Often their natural characteristics strove for the mastery. But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 13}

That Judas, with all his faults and defects of character, was numbered among the twelve, is an instructive lesson, one by the study of which Christians may be profited. God takes men as they are, with the human element in their character, and then trains them for his service if they will be disciplined and learn of him. When Judas was chosen by the Lord, his case was not hopeless. He had some good qualities. In his association with Christ in the work, by listening to his discourses, he had a favorable opportunity to see his wrongs, to become acquainted with his defects of character, if he really desired to be a true disciple. He was even placed in a position where he could have his choice either to develop his covetous disposition or to see and correct it. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 14}

Judas might have been benefited by these lessons, had he possessed a desire to be right at heart; but his acquisitiveness overcame him, and the love of money became a ruling power. Through indulgence, he permitted this trait in his character to grow and take so deep a root that it crowded out the good seed of truth sown in his heart. But the fact that Judas was not right at heart, that he was corrupted by selfishness and love of money, is no evidence that there are not true Christians, genuine disciples, who love their Saviour and try to imitate his life and example. There will ever be some who do not live out their profession, whose daily lives show them to be anything but Christians. But those who, in the love of God, desire to do his will, will manifest the same in their lives. The more man views his Saviour, the more will he become assimilated to his image, and work the works of Christ. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 15}

October 12, 1897 Judas. (Conclusion)
-
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

The love of money grew in the heart of Judas with the exercise of his shrewd abilities. His practical financiering ability, if exercised, enlightened, and molded by the Holy Spirit, would have been of great service to the little church; and by the sanctification of his spirit, he would have had a clear insight, a correct discernment to appreciate heavenly things. But worldly policy plans were constantly cherished by Judas. There was no outbreaking sin on his part; but his sharp scheming, the selfish, parsimonious spirit that took possession of him, finally led him to sell his Lord for a small sum of money. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 1}

He might have obtained a larger sum; but Satan had impressed upon his mind that Christ, who had so often defeated the purposes of the scribes and Pharisees, would not suffer himself to be taken. How often he had seen the scribes and Pharisees, as Jesus taught them the truth in parables, carried away with the striking figures presented! When questions were given for their decision, they pronounced judgment against themselves, condemning the course they themselves were pursuing. How often when Christ had made the application of the word to their hearts, and showed that they were the ones whose course he was illustrating, the plain truth sent home enraged them, and in their mortification and madness they had taken up stones to cast at the world's Redeemer! Again and again he would have been killed had it not been for the heavenly angels who attended him and guarded his life until the time when the case of the Jews as a nation should be decided. This human life must be kept by the power of God until his day of work was ended. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 2}

If Christ could escape so many snares set to destroy him, thought Judas, he certainly would not allow himself to be taken by the scribes, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees; and he decided to put the matter to the test, and bring the crisis. He, Judas, would act his part in selling his Lord, and the priests would be cheated out of their money. If Christ really were the Son of God, the Messiah, the people for whom he had done so much in relieving them from the oppressive power of Satan, would rally, and come to his assistance. Then he, Judas, would have the credit of having placed him on David's throne. This would forever settle many minds that were now in such uncertainty. And this act would place him as first, next to Christ, in the new kingdom. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 3}

There are two kinds of experience,--the external showing and the inward working. The divine and the human were at work in the character of Judas. Satan was working the human, Christ the divine. Jesus longed to see Judas rise to his appointed privileges. He had the privilege of being conformed to the image of Christ's character. This regeneration, this new birth, would have come to him through a vital connection with Christ. The Saviour's abiding presence would have been to him a daily renewal of consecration and progressive sanctification of the entire man. But the human side of the character of Judas was confused with his religious sentiments, and was treated by him as essential. By taking this view of things, he left an open door for Satan to enter and take possession of him. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 4}

When unbelief and envy are allowed even utterance, they become agents to expel calm, living, trusting faith. Truth is misunderstood, and perverted to mean error. Evidence might be piled upon evidence, but Satan is close at hand to see that the word spoken shall be misapplied, and become a matter of suspicion and distrust. How careful, then, should every person be that he does no despite to the Spirit of grace! {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 5}

Those who resist the Spirit of God, and provoke him to depart, know not to what lengths Satan will lead them. When the Holy Spirit departs from the man, he will imperceptibly do those things which once he viewed, in a correct light, to be decided sin. Unless he heeds the warnings, he will wrap himself in a deception that, as in the case of Judas, will cause him to become a traitor and blind. He will follow, step by step in the footsteps of Satan. Who, then, can strive with him to any purpose? Will the ministers plead with him and for him? All their words are as idle tales. Such souls have Satan as their chosen companion, to misconstrue the word spoken, and bring it to their understanding in a perverted light. When the Spirit of God is grieved away, every appeal made through the Lord's servants is meaningless to them. They will misconstrue every word. They will laugh at and turn into ridicule the most solemn words of Scripture warnings, which, if they were not bewitched by satanic agencies, would make them tremble. Every appeal made to them is in vain. They will not hear reproof or counsel. They despise all the entreaties of the Spirit, and disobey the commandments of God which they once vindicated and exalted. Well may the words of the apostle come home to such souls, "Who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth?" They follow the counsel of their own heart until truth is no more truth to them. Barabbas is chosen, Christ is rejected. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 6}

It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God. He alone can expel enmity, envy, and unbelief. He sanctifies the entire affections. He restores the willing, desirous soul from the power of Satan unto God. This is the power of grace. It is a divine power. Under its influence there is a change from the old habits, customs, and practises which, when cherished, separate the soul from God; and the work of sanctification goes on in the soul, constantly progressing and enlarging. - {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 7}

Any one with an EGW cd want to volunteer to take one & pull it up, and several volunteers on the bigger ones.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

1 John
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These texts clearly describe the life of a converted person as one that is without sin. This doesn't mean that he will never revert back to sin from time to time, but as Gerry pointed out the Bible never says "when" but "if" a man sin we have repentance and forgiveness through Jesus our Advocate.

I believe it is very dangerous to go around claiming to be a sinner. It gives people the impression that sin is a natural part of salvation. In other words, to be saved means to live a life of sin. This is wrong. It is more accurate to say we are saints or former sinners saved from sin by grace. We need to glorify God by drawing attention to the miracle of salvation, rather than to our history of sin.

To give the impression that all Christians sin on a regular basis, and that even Paul sinned even though he didn't want to, is to tell a lie about the plan of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that born again believers sin on a regular basis, and that that's normal. Yes, there is record of believers sinning after they have been converted, but these accounts do not give the idea that this is normal and to be expected. In every case the person(s) guilty of sin is reprimanded based on the truth that there is no excuse for sin. And they are encouraged to - Go and sin no more.

Gerry, you inferred Rom 7 means that Paul commits sin even though he doesn't want to. Are you 100% certain that that's what Rom 7 is saying about Paul the converted apostle? If so, then how do you explain verses 17 and 20? Is he blaming sin on sin?

Daryl, Paul lists himself as the chief of sinners, in the present tense, as you say. But according to the sanctuary message our sins remain in mind and on record until Jesus blots them out in the INJ. Thus in Paul's case he may very well be number one on the list of sinners recorded in heaven. He could refer to this fact in the present tense without also meaning to say that he is chief of sinners because of any sinning he is guilty of on an on-going basis. We might also add that simultaneously Paul is also the chief of saints (perhaps just under John Baptist) on another list kept in heaven.

In heaven and the New Earth we will not refer to ourselves as sinners. Why not? Because Jesus set us free from sin. It is no longer a part of our experience. According to the Bible that experience must begin here or we will not be in heaven. If life without sin begins here and now, then why do we insist on calling ourselves sinners? especially since we will not in heaven.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

quote:

---

Daryl, Paul lists himself as the chief of sinners, in the present tense, as you say. But according to the sanctuary message our sins remain in mind and on record until Jesus blots them out in the INJ. Thus in Paul's case he may very well be number one on the list of sinners recorded in heaven. He could refer to this fact in the present tense without also meaning to say that he is chief of sinners because of any sinning he is guilty of on an on-going basis. We might also add that simultaneously Paul is also the chief of saints (perhaps just under John Baptist) on another list kept in heaven.

---

Then I guess you are saying that Paul is both a sinner and a saint, which would be true of all born again Christians?

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Andrew Marttinen ]

Andrew, the idea of a confessing sinner leads me to believe sinning and repenting is normal or routine for born again believers. But I can't find anywhere in the Bible where this idea is taught. True, the Bible says it's that way for people before they are born again.

Ephesians
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

But once we have been delivered from our former life of sin we are, by the indwelling Spirit of God, free from sin.

Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Peter
1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Please, show me from the Bible where it says life in the Spirit and mind of the new man regularly involves sinning and repenting, and that this is normal and to be expected.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

quote:

---

Asked by Mike Lowe:

Please, show me from the Bible where it says life in the Spirit and mind of the new man regularly involves sinning and repenting, and that this is normal and to be expected.

---

Whole Bible is the answer, you find it from all-over the Bible.

It is not "normal" and also not "expected", but it is the truth. Do we stare at it or not.

Why Jesus taught to his disciples (to specially called/converted people) to pray in their everyday prayer:
"forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matt.6:12

...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"1.John 1:8
Isn't this text very clear in this topic?

"the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" 1.Cor.1:2

Please read from the Bible what these "saints" did there (in "the church of God ... at Corinth). Situation in Corinth was not "normal", do you agree?

Daniel
When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. (SC 29)

Question: was Daniel a "saint"?

Paul
Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. (SC 29)

Same question about Paul...

Brother Mike,
how do you come to Jesus: as a sinner or as a saint???

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Aksel ]

Bible Texts -(Saint*) 98 direct verses without context:

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

2 Chronicles 6:41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Job 5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?

Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Psalms 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psalms 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psalms 52:9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Psalms 79:2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

Psalms 85:8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Psalms 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalms 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.

Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Psalms 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Psalms 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

Psalms 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalms 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Proverbs 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Hosea 11:12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Philippians 4:21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;

Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Anybody want to bite a chunk of that bit by bit.

"a saint is" = 1 hit. (just 2580 left)

" Now I want to tell you what a saint is. A saint in heaven is just what he is in his own family at home. If he is a Christian at home he is a Christian in the church. He will be a good Christian in heaven. Now, God has placed us on trial here. How is it with you? Are you going to stand the test? He will bring circumstances around you to prove you and see whether there is any defilement of character in you. If there is any debasement, if there is any carnality, if there is any satanic tendency, He will bring you over the ground in one way, and then He will bring you over the ground in another way, and then He will test you upon one point, and then He will test you upon another. We are here to be tested and proved." {1SAT 186

********************

"saint" -

Appendix A - At Simon's House

"And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat." Christ had no home that He called His own. Those who invited Him to their houses regarded Him as being too poor to possess a home. But every house was His property.{DG 236.1}

Simon thought that in making this feast he was doing Christ an honor. But, even though what he furnished had been his own, in partaking of his hospitality Christ would have given more than was bestowed on Him. As He sat at the Pharisee's table, He ate the provision furnished by His Father. Scribes and Pharisees were tenants in His home. His benevolence provided them with food and clothing. If He had not become man's surety, they would have enjoyed no blessings. And not only do temporal blessings come from Him, but to all who will receive it, He gives the bread of life.{DG 236.2}

Christ ate with publicans and sinners, as well as with Pharisees. When He was invited to their homes, He accepted the invitation. In this He offended the scribes and Pharisees, who thought that a Jew should not thus forget the wall of partition that tradition had erected. But with God there is no sect or nationality. When thus accused, Christ answered, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." He placed Himself in the very avenue where He could gain access to perishing souls, and plant in human hearts the seeds of truth, seeds that would spring up and bear fruit to the glory of God.{DG 236.3}

Christ never provided a luxury for Himself, but He allowed expressions of respect and love to flow to Him. This was His due. He had nothing in the world which He claimed as His own, yet He made the world and all that is therein. For our sake He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. He bore the weakness of humanity. Could human eyes have been opened, they would have seen that He was stronger than the strong man armed; but He never forgot that in the estimation of the world He was a poor man.{DG 237.1}

There was no sham humility about Him. He was humility itself. "Being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself." When anyone did Him a favor, with all courtesy and heavenly politeness He blessed the giver. He never refused the simplest flower plucked by the hand of a child and offered to Him in love. He accepted the offerings of children, and blessed the givers, inscribing their names in the book of life.{DG 237.2}

"And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, and stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner."{DG 237.3}

By curing Simon of leprosy, Christ had saved him from a living death. But now Simon questioned whether Christ was a prophet. Because Christ allowed this woman to approach Him, because He did not indignantly spurn her as one whose sins were too great to be forgiven, because He did not show that He realized that she had fallen, Simon was tempted to think that He was not a prophet. His heart was filled with mistrust and unbelief. Jesus knows nothing of this woman, who is so free in her demonstrations, he thought, or He would not allow her to touch Him.{DG 237.4}

But Simon could not read his Guest's heart. It was his ignorance of the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He had sent, that led him to think as he did. He had not yet been fully converted from his Pharisaism. He did not realize that on such occasions God's Son must act in God's way--with compassion, tenderness, and mercy. Simon's way was to take no notice of Mary's penitent service, her humble action. Her act of kissing Christ's feet and anointing them with ointment was exasperating to Simon. He thought that if Christ were a prophet, He would recognize sinners and rebuke them.{DG 237.5}

Reading Simon's thoughts, Christ answered them before he had spoken, thus showing that He was a prophet of prophets. "Simon," He said, "I have somewhat to say unto thee. . . . There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou has rightly judged."{DG 238.1}

As did Nathan with David, Christ concealed His home thrust under the veil of a parable. He threw upon His host the burden of pronouncing sentence upon himself. This way of presenting the matter made Simon feel very uncomfortable. He himself had led into sin the woman he now despised. She had been deeply wronged by him. By the two debtors of the parable Simon and the woman are represented. Simon's sin is shown to be tenfold greater than that of the woman, as much greater as the debt of five hundred pence is greater than a debt of fifty pence.{DG 238.2}

Simon now began to see himself in a new light. He saw how Mary was regarded by One who was indeed a prophet in every sense of the word. He saw that with keen prophetic eye Christ read her heart of love and devotion. Simon was ashamed. He felt that he was in the presence of a being superior to himself.{DG 238.3}

Simon had doubted that Christ was a prophet, but in His very knowledge of this woman, Christ gave evidence of His prophetic character. His mighty works bore witness of Him. His miracles, His wonderful instruction, His long patience, His humility, all were evidences of His divinity. Simon need not have doubted.{DG 238.4}

"I entered into thine house," Christ continued, "thou gavest me no water for my feet: but [with tears of repentance, prompted by love] she hath washed my feet . . . and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman [whom you despise] since the time she entered in, hath not ceased to kiss my feet." The washing of the feet and the kiss of welcome were attentions that were not invariably shown to guests. It was customary to bestow them on those to whom it was desired to show special regard. These ministrations Christ should have received from His host, but He did not.{DG 238.5}

Christ recounted the opportunities Simon had had to show his love for his Lord, and his appreciation of what had been done for him. Plainly, yet with delicate politeness, Christ assured His disciples that His heart is grieved when His children neglect to express their gratitude to Him by words and deeds of love. Some may think that this scripture is no longer of force, but it is. Writing of those women who were to be honored, Paul said, "If she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work" [1 Timothy 5:10].{DG 239.1}

Many need sympathy and appreciation. But those who would wash the saints' feet must have sanctified discernment, that they may be able to recognize a saint. The garment of God's messenger may be travel-stained and worn, but he may be an angel in disguise. Unrecognized, angels talk with men, speaking words that are to their souls as the water of life. Mary was looked upon as a great sinner, but Christ knew the circumstances that had made her thus. He saw that she had great capabilities for good. He saw the better phase of her character, and knew that through His grace she would become a partaker of the divine nature, and would purify her soul by obeying the truth.{DG 239.2}

Christ might have extinguished every spark of hope in Mary's soul, but He did not. The Heart-searcher read the motives that led to her actions, and He also saw the spirit that prompted Simon's words."Seest thou this woman?" He said to him. "She is a sinner; I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven."{DG 239.3}

Those present, thinking of Lazarus, who had been raised from the dead by Christ, and who was at this time a guest in his uncle's house, began to question, saying, "Who is this that forgiveth sins also?" But Christ continued, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."{DG 239.4}

Jesus knows the circumstances of every soul. You may say, I am sinful, very sinful. You may be; but the worse you are, the more you need Jesus. He turns no weeping, contrite soul away. He does not tell to any all that He might reveal, but He bids every trembling soul take courage. He will not reject any who come to Him penitent and believing. Freely will He pardon all who come for forgiveness and restoration.{DG 240.1}

But to know Jesus requires a change of heart. No unconverted person, in his natural state of depravity, loves Christ. A love of Jesus is the first result of conversion. The proof of this love is given: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."{DG 240.2}

Christ might commission the angels of heaven to pour out the vials of wrath on our world, full of hypocrisy and sin, destroying those who are filled with hatred to God. He might blot this dark spot from His universe. But He does not do this. He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."{DG 240.3}

Jesus is to be loved and trusted. All who will be obedient He leads upward step by step, as fast as they can advance, that, while standing by the side of the Sin-bearer, in the light that proceeds from the throne of God, they may breathe the air of the heavenly courts. Beside his great Intercessor, the repentant sinner stands above the strife and accusation of tongues. "Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled."{DG 240.4}

No human being, even though united with evil angels, can impeach the souls who have fled to Christ for refuge. He has united the believing soul to His own divine-human nature. In His mediatorial office, His divinity and humanity are combined, and upon this union hangs the hope of the world.--ST, May 9, 1900. {DG 240.5}

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

I see you edited the above post, therefore, I had better edit mine.

That first quote defining a saint could be another topic in itself.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

1. A saint is converted.
2. A saint is performing the things they understand how to perform in following Jesus.
3. They live to the same standards at home and church and everywhere.
4. a saint depends upon Jesus and His merits, follows the Holy Spirit's leading, and demonstrates his or her gratitude.

quote:

---

Jesus is to be loved and trusted. All who will be obedient He leads upward step by step, as fast as they can advance, that, while standing by the side of the Sin-bearer, in the light that proceeds from the throne of God, they may breathe the air of the heavenly courts. Beside his great Intercessor, the repentant sinner stands above the strife and accusation of tongues. "Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled."{DG 240.4}

---

The repentant sinner. Why didn't she say, "Beside his great Intercessor, the saint stands above the strife and accusation of tongues."???

Sounds to me that though repentant, he was still referred by her in this quote as a sinner saved by grace.

Askel, to insist that since born again believers fall in and out of sin on a regular basis proves that sinning and repenting is just a natural part of being saved neglects what the Bible says about living without sin. Properly understood 1 John 1:8 is not saying that sinning is normal and part of being a Christian. It's simply saying that all have sinned (past tense), not that all sin every day or all the time. Please refer to the list of texts I quoted earlier.

We come to Jesus as sinners, and thank God He does not send us away as sinners. Through the miracle of rebirth He promises - Go, and sin no more. It's important to notice that he did not say - Go, and gradually eliminate sin.

Why do we make it seem as if sin is too big and powerful to live without? I get the feeling that most people believe sin is too strong to overcome or to resist. Where does this kind of thinking originate? Living without sin is not the challenge facing Christians, rather the goal of a born again believer is to imitate the example of Jesus.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

But if we make sin out to be some giant which is not easily resisted or overcome then what will people think when they learn that the Bible promises us more than victory? The good fight of faith is not about resisting sin and temptation, it's more about imitating the example of Jesus, it's about maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

I believe we need to get out of this mind set that resisting temptation is some kind of major accomplishment, and start realizing that true conversion is about growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - just like Jesus did as He matured from childhood to adulthood.

The parables of the unprofitable servants (Mat 25 and Luke 17) clearly teach that there is more, much more, to life than merely resisting temptation. It's not until we begin to reproduce the lovely character of Jesus that we have entered into the miralce of salvation and righteousness by faith. It's good to know that the Bible doesn't say - no sin by faith. Instead it plainly says - righteousness by faith. Not sinning is not righteousness. Right doing is righteousness.

Do you see what I mean?

"I believe we need to get out of this mind set that resisting temptation is some kind of major accomplishment, and start realizing that true conversion is about growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - just like Jesus did as He matured from childhood to adulthood."

Mike

I would venture my humble opinion, to say this comment is way off base:

DA.720.002
Yet Judas made no open opposition, nor seemed to question the Saviour's lessons. He made no outward murmur until the time of the feast in Simon's house. When Mary anointed the Saviour's feet, Judas manifested his covetous disposition. At the reproof from Jesus his very spirit seemed turned to gall. Wounded pride and desire for revenge broke down the barriers, and the greed so long indulged held him in control. This will be the experience of everyone who persists in tampering with sin. The elements of depravity that are not resisted and overcome, respond to Satan's temptation, and the soul is led captive at his will.

HS.136.001
A relentless and determined foe has prepared his wiles for every soul that is not braced for trial, and guarded by constant prayer and living faith. We cannot individually, or as a body, secure ourselves from his constant assaults; but in the strength of Jesus every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret, may be successfully resisted. Remember that "your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." Therefore "be sober, be vigilant."

GCB.1899-10-01.008
The Lord Jesus Christ, when in human flesh, successfully resisted every temptation of the enemy. His efforts of superhuman love, made to save the race, were successful. From him men and women may receive power to overcome, if they will consent to cease from sin. Christ gave every son and daughter of Adam unmistakable evidence that through the provisions God has made they may overcome. Each one must rely on the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. He takes every repenting soul into covenant relation with himself.

I can't see how resisting temptations is something wee need to "get away from, when it comes to us everyday; and Jesus says: "To him that overcometh, will I....."

Sounds pretty major to me...

How would I ever have gotten off drugs, if I had listened to what you just wrote?

"Grow in grace," means "resist temptation." And that is indeed a major thing.

"We come to Jesus as sinners, and thank God He does not send us away as sinners. Through the miracle of rebirth He promises - Go, and sin no more. It's important to notice that he did not say - Go, and gradually eliminate sin."

David, after rereading what I wrote about resisting temptation I must apologize for making it seem as though resisting and overcoming are not important. Thank you for clarifying that point.

The main thing I was trying to get across is that by contrast reproducing the character of Jesus is more important than ceasing from sin, which is NOT to say that ceasing from sin is unimportant. The idea that ceasing from sin is the end goal of a Christian is unbiblical. Ceasing from sin is the starting point of Christianity. From there the focus should be on imitating the example of Jesus by maturing in the fruit and attributes of God.

But if we spend our life as Christians pretending temptation is our major challenge then we shall fail to focus on being Christlike. If we focus on not sinning then we are not focusing on Jesus. He never sinned, thus if we make not sinning our primary goal then nothingness is our focus. Not sinning is not righteousness. If all we ever do in life is not sin then we haven't accomplished anything. As Morris Venden put it - Being good by not being bad is not being good.

Jesus did not come and demonstrate how to avoid doing nothing wrong. Doing nothing wrong is still doing nothing. Rather Jesus left us an example of doing everything right. He did the will of His Father. Jesus encourages us to showcase the glory of God by living a life full of faith and good works.

But if we make temptation out to be some monster so terrible that it requires all our time and energy to out smart it, then I'm afraid we will be too distracted with sin and temptation to devote enough time to what really matters - righteousness by faith. Again, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying resisting temptation isn't necessary or important. Satan is defeated. Jesus is the mighty, all powerful Saviour. We should exalt Him and His power to save to the utter most.

DA 493.1
There are Christians who think and speak altogether too much about the power of Satan. They think of their adversary, they pray about him, they talk about him, and he looms up greater and greater in their imagination. It is true that Satan is a powerful being; but, thank God, we have a mighty Saviour, who cast out the evil one from heaven. Satan is pleased when we magnify his power. Why not talk of Jesus? Why not magnify His power and His love?

1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

2 Peter
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Philippians
1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

These texts very clearly teach that resisting temptation is something that God empowers us to do in His strength and in His power. Victory does not depend upon our inherited weaknesses, but rather it relies solely upon staying connected to Jesus. Fighting the good fight of faith means exercising our all God given strength to keep our eyes firmly focused upon Jesus our Saviour.

Victory belongs to those who fight to abide in Jesus, not to those who fight with all their focus on not sinning. We must fight the good fight of faith NOT the fruitless fight of sin. We cannot overcome temptation by focusing on not sinning. We may overcome only as we make Jesus the focus of our time and attention. And then righteousness will be so attractive and so desirable that temptation will lose all it's power and appeal. And we come off more than conquerors in Jesus.

quote:

---

Posted by Mike Lowe:
"We come to Jesus as sinners, and thank God He does not send us away as sinners. Through the miracle of rebirth He promises - Go, and sin no more. It's important to notice that he did not say - Go, and gradually eliminate sin."

---

Do I understand you now correctly:
"We come to Jesus as sinners, and thank God He does not send us away as sinners"; and next time when we come to Jesus we come also as sinners?? Is it right?

If so, then where is the problem?

Perhaps they (like us, like Peter, like Abraham--called 'father of a multitude' before he even had a child) are given a new name by God even before they reach their growth-potential in Him.

Very well said!

Pastor Mike

I see some of your point; I think; let me ask a question, that perhaps will help me to answer some that I have about your post.

What is it that makes someone like Jesus?

Aksel, so long as we abide in Jesus we are saints. But if we disconnect ourselves and wander off in sin then the only way to come back to Jesus is as a sinner. The common denominator for a sinner is sin and separation. Sin separates, and repentance restores. Is that right?

David, a person is Christlike if they are like Christ. To live without sin is to be like Jesus. 1 Peter 2:21,22. And to mature in the fruit of the Spirit is to be like Jesus. Luke 2:52 and Heb 5:8,9 and 1 Peter 4;1,2.

What makes a person "live without sin?"

How could any human, be "like Jesus?"

What does the Bible mean, when it talks about the helpless human agent, "being like Jesus?"

I sense that you are seeing a point, that perhaps we have not yet caught the drift of? If true; can you explain it a bit?

Also; how would you explain Isa. 58:8, when it says: "thy righteousness shall go before thee."

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Two more questions:

How long have you been dead? (Rom.7:4).
How long have you been alive? (Rom.6:11).

Is it true that a Christian is both "dead" and "alive" at the same time?

What makes a person "live without sin?" - Not what, but Who. It is the Spirit of God who empowers us to experience the promise - Go, and sin no more.

Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

2 Peter
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations...

Luke
1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Philippians
4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

How could any human, be "like Jesus?" - The answer to this question shares the same Scripture promises quoted above. We can imitate not equal Jesus.

Matthew
10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.

SD 154.3 "Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character."

TMK 265.2 "Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. When we fall, all helpless, suffering in consequence of our realization of the sinfulness of sin; when we humble ourselves before God, afflicting our souls by true repentance and contrition; when we offer our fervent prayers to God in the name of Christ; we shall as surely be received by the Father as we sincerely make a complete surrender of our all to God. We should realize in our inmost soul that all our efforts in and of ourselves will be utterly worthless, for it is only in the name and strength of the Conqueror that we shall be overcomers."

What does the Bible mean, when it talks about the helpless human agent, "being like Jesus?" - Fortunately experiencing the promises of perfection do not depend upon our weaknessess or even our strengths. Our ability to overcome and imitate the lovely character of Christ is made possible entirely by the indwelling Spirit of God. We can be like Jesus in character not in essence, for He is also God and we are not.

I sense that you are seeing a point, that perhaps we have not yet caught the drift of? If true; can you explain it a bit? - I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that a sinner is someone who sins and a saint is someone who is experiencing the promises of God. And to say that someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man is a sinner is too confusing and even insults the promises of God.

Also; how would you explain Isa. 58:8, when it says: "thy righteousness shall go before thee." - I believe this passage is similar to:

Revelation
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The imparted righteousness of Christ is a reality, not just some legal wrangling that God waves His magic wand over.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he {Jesus} is righteous.

The transformation of character we experience as God works His miracle upon us through His victory promises is real and intrinsic not imaginary or forensic. We truly experience righteousness. And as such God can refer to it as our righteousness. It is unique to our special gifts, talents and personality.

We are not clons of Christ, but rather we are Christlike according to our singular uniqueness, a new and improved person. And this new blend of righteousness, something that has never been seen before in the history of mankind, goes before us like the hearld of God's love to bless others in it's wake.

How long have you been dead? (Rom.7:4). How long have you been alive? (Rom.6:11). - By the grace of God I crucified self in 1995. I have been walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man since then, but not without falling now again.

Is it true that a Christian is both "dead" and "alive" at the same time? - Hopefully we are dead to sin and awake to righteounsess.

1 Corinthians
15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not...

quote:

---

Posted by Mike Lowe:
I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that a sinner is someone who sins and a saint is someone who is experiencing the promises of God. And to say that someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man is a sinner is too confusing and even insults the promises of God.

---

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1.Tim.1:15

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32

"But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matt.9:13

"When Jesus heard it, he said to them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17

I'd like to do conclusion. Not depending on that how far we achieve in our way of sanctification we are and will stay sinners, who need grace in front of the eyes of our Lord. So long as He will return back and will change us (like He is). That's all.

DA 24.2 "Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God."

You say you "crucified self in 1995;" what is it that you actually did?

How can one know that they have indeed, "crucified self?" Especially, noting the fact that in a real, physical crucifixion, you could never hang yourself on the cross...someone would have to do it for you.

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

DA 172.1
The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

DA 172.2
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.

DA 173.1
While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God.

DA 173.6
Their great need was that very change which Christ had been explaining to Nicodemus,--a new moral birth, a cleansing from sin, and a renewing of knowledge and holiness.

DA 175.2
Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

DA 175.5
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

I discovered the truth about conversion in 1995. Before that my life was very similar to Nicodemus' life, and like him when I understood the true nature of rebirth then my life was radically changed forever by the grace of God. It was the truth that set me free, just like Jesus promised.

The DA quotes above make it clear to me that there is a process that we pass through before we experience that radical transformation we call conversion. The when-then relationship before and after we undergo this miracle of rebirth is like night and day. Who cannot know it when it happens? The joy that filled my soul was rich and real and I knew something very special had happened to me the day I understood and accepted the truth about conversion. I was set free.

Please allow me to play "devil's advocate" for a short bit here, just to try and get at some fundamental points about this topic.

I asked you what you have actually done, in terms of "crucifying self," in 1995.

First, you appear in your above post, to be saying that it is a "process," yet, the way it looks, when you talked about how you crucified self in 1995, is that it was a one time event.

Also, are you telling us here, that the crucifying of self, is strictly the realization of an alleged point of truth, and mental acceptance of this point?

How can we crucify ourselves? To hang someone on a cross needs more than one set of hands, more than our own hands can do alone.

By the appearance of your responses, it looks to me like you are just talking about a change in behavior, or, in a point of belief.

Is this all there is to the crucifying of self?

If so, why do we need Jesus, if we can do all this?

I think that as a people, we grossly misunderstand this vital point of the Christian faith. We have no idea what it is to "crucify self." If we were really crucfying self, what results would we see?

What is really meant by "crucifying self?" What specifically must we do? What specifically were you set free from? To just say you were set free is different than a testimony of what one has been set free from. I don't believe people anymore if they just make the claim. I want to see some proof. I want to see a clear line demarcating what one must specifically be doing to "crucify self," that I too may be "set free."

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

And surely it must be obvious from previous posts and quotes that the "process" of conversion refers to that pre-converted period when the Holy Spirit is drawing us to Christ during which time we experience conviction, confession and commitment. And that the "product" of conversion is the gift of rebirth, which happens after we completely crucify self.

Is conversion a one time event? In most cases it is. But the problem is that most people never do experience conversion. She says conversion is rare and that most are buried alive. Those who do experience the miracle of rebirth are unlikely to turn their backs on God. King Saul is someone who did. Once converted we must maintain it by daily submitting to the indwelling Spirit of God.

6 BC 1075.7
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ.

6 BC 1101.1
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

RH 7-30-1901
Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. Faith passes into knowledge, and the word of God is understood. The branch becomes a living part of the Vine.

These quotes are so crystal clear further comment seems unnecessary. The before and after condition of a born again believer is like night and day. There are simply no comparisons only contrasts. Paul also gives convincing evidence in the following passage.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The contrast between the fruit of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit is also like night and day. To be converted means we no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh and that we now experience the fruit of the Spirit.

In 1995 I crucified self, what I mean by this expression is exactly what it means in Romans 6, that is, Jesus set me free from the lusts of the flesh and gave me the Holy Spirit to empower me to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. When I was converted that day Jesus implanted within me the attributes of God and the fruit of the Spirit. If you think that's arrogant take a look at these quotes:

COL 330.2
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.

DA 676.4
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.

DA 302.4
The only power that can create or perpetuate true peace is the grace of Christ. When this is implanted in the heart, it will cast out the evil passions that cause strife and dissension.

DA 407.1
But the gospel is not without a sign of its divine origin. Is it not a miracle that we can break from the bondage of Satan? Enmity against Satan is not natural to the human heart; it is implanted by the grace of God. When one who has been controlled by a stubborn, wayward will is set free, and yields himself wholeheartedly to the drawing of God's heavenly agencies, a miracle is wrought; so also when a man who has been under strong delusion comes to understand moral truth. Every time a soul is converted, and learns to love God and keep His commandments, the promise of God is fulfilled, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezek. 36:26. The change in human hearts, the transformation of human characters, is a miracle that reveals an ever-living Saviour, working to rescue souls. A consistent life in Christ is a great miracle. In the preaching of the word of God, the sign that should be manifest now and always is the presence of the Holy Spirit, to make the word a regenerating power to those that hear. This is God's witness before the world to the divine mission of His Son.

DA 409.3
The religion of Christ is sincerity itself. Zeal for God's glory is the motive implanted by the Holy Spirit; and only the effectual working of the Spirit can implant this motive. Only the power of God can banish self-seeking and hypocrisy. This change is the sign of His working. When the faith we accept destroys selfishness and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is of the right order. "Father, glorify Thy name" (John 12:28), was the keynote of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the keynote of our life. He commands us to "walk, even as He walked;" and "hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."1 John 2:6, 3.

DA 641.3
Love to man is the earthward manifestation of the love of God. It was to implant this love, to make us children of one family, that the King of glory became one with us. And when His parting words are fulfilled, "Love one another, as I have loved you" (John 15:12); when we love the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven; for we have heaven in our hearts.

DA 678.1
This love is the evidence of their discipleship. "By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples," said Jesus, "if ye have love one to another." When men are bound together, not by force or self-interest, but by love, they show the working of an influence that is above every human influence. Where this oneness exists, it is evidence that the image of God is being restored in humanity, that a new principle of life has been implanted. It shows that there is power in the divine nature to withstand the supernatural agencies of evil, and that the grace of God subdues the selfishness inherent in the natural heart.

Please take the time to read these quotes. They spell things out so clearly it's hard to imagine anyone missing the point, which is - When we consent to crucify self (our defects of character and pet sins) we then experience the rare miracle of rebirth. God implants within us the mind of the new man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24. It comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we spend the rest of lives maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

All you have done is to quote some rote definitions, which cannot serve to answer what I have asked.

Why is it that we cannot give a real sounding, lively, personal experience, when asked by someone if we have been "set free?" What kind of believers are we when all we can do is quote textbook definitions? Everybody does that these days.

Perhaps, you have missed what I am asking?

I will quote the essence of it again:

"I think that as a people, we grossly misunderstand this vital point of the Christian faith. We have no idea what it is to "crucify self." If we were really crucfying self, what results would we see?

What is really meant by "crucifying self?" What specifically must we do? What specifically were you set free from? To just say you were set free is different than a testimony of what one has been set free from." (and HOW they were set free BY JESUS).

Trouble with these quotes is that we can take them, one by one, start to "do them," and when we get to the last one...BINGO! We did it!

I call your quotes, in the context they are used, a wish list.

The problem with this understanding, at least the way it translated itself in my life, was that I did not expect to experience complete, consistent victory right away in my life since victory was the result of years of sinning and repenting until finally the momentum of victory was one my side.

So whenever I failed to be patient with my children or wife I would minimize the problem and dismiss it as nothing more than a lack of experience. Victory in that area I figured was still in future. And I was very patient with my impatience because I assumed that victory took years to accumulate.

But when I found out that the Bible and the SOP teach that victory is available now and that it is a miracle when God empowers us to resist temptation, and that God's main goal for us is righteousness by faith now - this knowledge changed my life for good and for ever. I now expect to be victorious every time I am tempted, because now I believe God will not allow me to be tempted above His ability to empower me to resist unto His honor and glory. And I also believe that He implanted within me His righteous attributes and the fruit of the Spirit the moment I believed the truth about righteousness by faith and genuine conversion, the moment I stopped making excuses for my failures.

Okay, here's a partial list of some of the specific things God delivered me from - impatience, anger, revenge, faultfinding, criticism, envy, thoughtlessness, favoritism, foolishness, and the like. I never had problems with drugs, alcohol, rock music or sex. The victories I have been experiencing are nothing short of miraculous. Everytime God empowers me to resist a temptation I am amazed to watch His power at work in my life. Even the fact that I am able to recognize the many new faces of temptation and successfully resist them in the power of His indwelling Spirit thrills me to joy.

I expect to be successful every time I'm tempted and God never let's me down. There are times when I let Him down, but this does not disprove the promises of God. It just proves that I will fail if I don't keep my eyes on Jesus at every moment of the day and night. That's how I am victorious by staying connected to Jesus and believing I can be more than a conqueror through Him. I crucified self when I chose to believe in the promises of God and stopped making excuses for my failures. That's when sin and temptation lost power over me. Sin and temptation loses all power and appeal at the Cross. That's where I find victory.

Does that answer your questions?

Is the conclusion that, as we grow as Christians we develope more love (more saintly) and therefore have less sinner qualities? Which will not reach full maturity until glorification?

Like a plant is perfect and complete in the seed, in the green, and in the blossom so too Jesus was perfect and complete at every progressive stage of His development. And thus it is with born again believers. They are born again morally perfect and complete, but like the plant and baby Jesus they too must grow and mature into seasoned saints. And in reality this growth process will continue throughout eternity, not becoming less and less sinful but rather becoming more and more mature in the fruit of Spirit.

I'll be away on business until next week. But I might be able to access the forum between meetings.

1. {Mar 73.5}Maranatha
2. {1MCP 325.3} Mind Character and Personality Volume 1
3. {MH 180.5} Ministry of Healing
4. {PaM 260.2} Pastoral Ministry
5. {SD 297.4} Sons and Daughters of God
6. {Te 107.1} Temperance
7. {5T 177.1} Testimonies volume 5
8. {5T 220.2} “ ” “ ”
9. {GCB, April 23,1901} The General Conference Bulletin April 23 1901
10. {RH, December 13, 1887 par. 14} The Review and Herald (EGW Periodical Article)
11. {RH, June 22, 1905 par. 2} “ ” “ ”
12. {RH, September 27, 1906 par. 5} “ ” “ ”
13. {RH, November 18, 1909 par. 10} “ ” “ ”
14. {RH, June 30, 1910 par. 9}
15. {RH, June 30, 1910 par. 12}
16. {ST, February 8, 1883 par. 12} The Signs of the Times (EGW Periodical Article )
17. {ST, August 24, 1891 par. 2} “ ” “ ”
18. {ST, January 9, 1896 par. 3} “ ” “ ‘
19. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 1} *
20. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 3}*
21. {ST, May 2, 1900 par. 9}
22. {SW, February 19, 1907 par. 11} The Watchman (was known as The Southern Watchman)
23. {YI, February 15, 1894 par. 5} The Youth’s Instructor
24. {SpTA01b 27.1} An Appeal to Our Ministers and Conference Committees
25. {PH001 4.1} (Pamphlets ) PH001 - An Appeal (1882)
26. {PH086 12.2}(Pamphlets) PH086 - Special Testimony to Battle Creek Church (1898)
27. {8MR 291.5} Manuscript Releases Volume 8
28. {19MR 176.2}* Manuscript Releases Volume 19
29. {2SAT 74.4} Sermons and Talks Volume 2

* Some of these quotes & context contain strong point blank statements.

But if we invent excuses for sin then we prevent God from fulfilling His promises in our life and we will continue to slip in and out of sin. I believe we need to take God at His word and expect to experiene His power to recognize and resist temptation - not just ocassionally, but every single time we're tempted to sin. Otherwise, we cannot achieve what we cannot believe (a line from Pilgrims Progress).

If we believe God does not allow the Devil to tempt us beyond His ability to empower us to resist unto His honor and glory then we can also expect to successfully resist any and every temptation that comes our way. If we choose to hide and abide in Christ (like Morris Venden writes about in his book - To Know God) then we have every right to trust God to bring us off more than conquerors.

But if we don't expect to be successful every time we're tempted then we are in reality planning to fail, and this will weaken our resolve to trust in God's promises to deliver us out of temptation. I believe trusting in God's promises is the key to living without the burden of committing known sin. If we develop the habit of expecting to be victorious every time we're tempted then I believe God will fulfill His promises in our life. But if we expect to fail every once in a while then it is very likely we will.

God's promises, which been quoted throughout this thread, are too specific to be misunderstood. There is nothing vague or difficult about them. And it rests with us to decide if we will believe His promises and experience victory or expect to be defeated and suffer the results of distrusting God's power. God will never let us down. We may let Him down, but He will never let us down. We have no reason to expect to fall. Instead, we have every reason to expect to succeed!

"In the life of the disciple John true sanctification is exemplified. During the years of his close association with Christ, he was often warned and cautioned by the Saviour; and these reproofs he accepted. As the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, John saw his own deficiencies, and was humbled by the revelation.

Day by day, in contrast with his own violent
spirit, he beheld the tenderness and forbearance of Jesus, and heard Hislessons of humility and patience. Day by day his heart was drawn out to
Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. The power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, the strength and patience, that he saw in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration. He yielded his resentful, ambitious temper to the molding power of Christ, and divine love wrought in him a transformation of character.

In striking contrast to the sanctification worked out in the life of John is the experience of his fellow disciple, Judas. Like his associate, Judas professed to be a disciple of Christ, but he possessed only a form of godliness. He was not insensible to the beauty of the character of Christ; and often, as he listened to the Saviour's
words, conviction came to him, but he would not humble his heart or confess his sins. By resisting the divine influence he dishonored the Master whom he professed to love. John warred earnestly against his faults; but Judas violated his conscience and yielded to temptation, fastening upon himself more securely his habits of evil. The practice of the truths that Christ
taught was at variance with his desires and purposes, and he could not bring himself to yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from heaven. Instead of walking in the light, he chose to walk in darkness. Evil desires, covetousness, revengeful passions, dark and sullen thoughts, were cherished until Satan gained full control of him.

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and
follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. ***But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other
revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan***." "The Acts of the Apostles" by Ellen White.

This tells me that John was being sanctified progressively, beginning when he began to walk with Jesus. Who gets sanctified? Surely only those who have already become justified. So John was justified, sanctified, walking with Jesus, but continuing to be beset with sins. He was arguing about who would be greatest in the kingdom, and he deserted Jesus when the soldiers came to arrest Him. He didn't stay in that condition, but he was IN that condition, and still regarded as a child of God.

"The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. . . . If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute.

There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last.

When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun." The Faith I Live By - Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin (It's possible that some references are incorrect, as I cut and pasted some things separately)

So, conversion is when we find peace with God through the atonement, and is the beginning. Then, through the agency of the word of God, which the converted person makes their study, our characters are transformed, but not instantaneously.

"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ, and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged. "

"Courage, fortitude, faith, and implicit trust in God's power to save are needed. These heavenly graces do not come in a moment; they are acquired by the experience of years. But every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge. As he advances in the divine life, he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the Word of God, until, by beholding, he becomes changed, and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer."

(Sorry - I don't have the references.)

I think it's clear that there is a process of growth during which we become complete overcomers. But we are regarded as perfect at any stage of this growth, because of the cross.

Just two more:

Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902).

.--Sanctification means habitual communion with God (RH March 15, 1906).

I guess I would have to say I have a very similar conception to Mike's as to what conversion really is. Why? Because his description is what I have experienced in my life, and that this experience is taught in the Bible as what conversion is.

I see many people maligning that point of view, but I would like to say for long stretches of my life I have been at total peace with God, with a conscience that doesn't accuse me in any way. Will I still acknowledge that I have a sinful nature during these times? Of course I will. I know exactly what and who I am without Jesus Christ. But, I am another person entirely with Jesus as a constant companion.

Jesus taught this lesson in His conversation with Nicodemus. I would like to draw some parallels between what Jesus told Nicodemus, the actual life of Jesus here on earth, and other statements Jesus made as to what the kingdom of heaven is.

Jesus first recorded words to Nicodemus are as follows:

quote:

---

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

---

The first thing we need to really understand here is what it is Jesus told Nicodemus that he wouldn't be able to see if he wasn't born again--the kingdom of heaven. So let's answer some of the typical questions of who, what, where, when, why, and how.

So where does Jesus say that this kingdom that He is talking to Nicodemus about exists?

quote:

---

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

---

How powerful does Jesus say this kingdom within you will be?

quote:

---

Mark 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

---

Jesus says that though it starts out small it will overshadow everything else. It will be the one dominant feature of what is within you. Everything else will be subservient to it.

Who can enter into it?

quote:

---

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

---

The only ones who can enter are those who are born again.

Let's shift gears just a little bit and look at this last text in some depth. In the Greek the word translated as born properly meant to be born of the father, and only be extension did it mean to be born of a mother. If we look at Jesus what is it is one of the major separations between Him and the rest of humanity? It is who His Father was. So, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that to be born again we must be born of the Father. Nicodemus is puzzled and asks how this can happen to an man when he is old. Notice Jesus' answer:

quote:

---

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

---

Jesus tells Nicodemus that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. What do we find in the history of the life of Jesus? That the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus was born. Now don't get me wrong here I am not trying to go off into mysticism in any way shape or form. I am simply drawing parallels from Jesus said and what happened in His life. Thus, we must be born of the Spirit to be born again. We are no longer of (controlled by) the flesh, because we are of (controlled by) the Spirit. Those are Jesus words. That is what happened in Jesus own life. This is what He promised to us. The continual abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus agrees with this.

quote:

---

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

---

He is saying that the motives of the heart are different when one is born by the Spirit. No longer is one driven by selfishness, but the Spirit of God. So, where is sin if we are motivated by God's Spirit? It has no place. The only way sin can come back to prominence is for us to separate from Jesus.

Ellen White and Paul concur:

quote:

---

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Eph. 6:16. {AG 33.1}

Satan watches his opportunity to seize the precious graces when we are unguarded, and we shall have a severe conflict with the powers of darkness to retain them, or to regain a heavenly grace if through lack of watchfulness we lose it. But . . . it is the privilege of Christians to obtain strength from God to hold every precious gift. Fervent and effectual prayer will be regarded in heaven. When the servants of Christ take the shield of faith for their defense, and the sword of the Spirit for war, there is danger in the enemy's camp. {AG 33.2}

Amidst the snares to which all are exposed, they need strong and trustworthy defenses on which to rely. Many in this corrupt age have so small a supply of the grace of God, that in many instances their defense is broken down by the first assault, and fierce temptations take them captives. The shield of grace can preserve all unconquered by the temptations of the enemy, though surrounded with the most corrupting influences. By firm principle, and unwavering trust in God, their virtue and nobleness of character can shine, and, although surrounded with evil, no taint need be left upon their virtue and integrity. {AG 33.3}

The work of conquering evil is to be done through faith. Those who go into the battlefield will find that they must put on the whole armor of God. The shield of faith will be their defense and will enable them to be more than conquerors. Nothing else will avail but this--faith in the Lord of hosts, and obedience to His orders. Vast armies furnished with every other facility will avail nothing in the last great conflict. Without faith, an angel host could not help. Living faith alone will make them invincible and enable them to stand in the evil day, steadfast, unmovable, holding the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end. {AG 33.4}

---

I really feel like the Christian church as a whole has been sold a bill of goods as to what conversion really is. Who would want this? The devil. Why? Because if he can put us to sleep and at ease with a false sense of security will we be holding onto Jesus as tightly as we should be, and with which it is our privilege to do? Absolutely not. We will be, poor, blind, miserable, naked, and think we are rich and increased with spiritual goods. Nothing could please the devil more than that. He has won if this is how we are.

quote:

---

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

---

I think all this ties in with what John had to say too.

quote:

---

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

---

We are not yet immortal and sinless as God is yet because of our sinful natures, but should this stop us from purifying ourselves through faith that we may be pure, even as He is pure? I think not. We sell out the promises and blessings of God all too cheaply. We are satisfied as Esau was with selling our birthrights for a pot of stew. We look far short of where God would have us to focus. We become and are unsuccessful Christians because that is what we expect to be.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

Yes, he manifested passions that demonstrated he had room to grow, but I'm not totally sure he was "willfully" sinning against Jesus. His desire to punish people who did not properly appreciate Jesus was based on jealousy for Jesus and the story of Elisha. And his desire to serve next to Jesus either on His left or right hand was motivated, at least in part, by his love of being around Jesus. I wish my problems were as "pure" as that!!!

Gary, thank you for expressing the ideas near and dear to my heart in such an eloquent manner. I appreciate the quotes you used and how you related them to the subject. The idea that self must first be crucified BEFORE we experience the miracle of rebirth is not very popular. And yet the Bible makes it so clear. John 3:6, which you quoted, plainly says that that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And who can forget 1 John 3:9.

Thanks for the kind words. It is rare to find someone else with the understanding that conversion is a completely life altering experience, and that it requires a total turn about that can only come from a total attitude change about self.

Self-surrender will never be a popular subject. It cuts waaay to close to home. It makes religion and God intensely personal. Self-surrender is the reason that many of the multitude quit following Jesus during His lifetime. They wanted a religion that didn't require self to die to reap the benefits of it.

As you know everybody has a point of view on this thread and other threads, but the most important point of view for you is yours and Jesus'. When the two of you are satisfied then if we have the mind of God in us we to will see it the same way. Please do not allow our well intentioned thoughts to get in the way of your realtionship with Jesus.

When Elijah, a man of like passions as we are, was asking God to kill him he had given up on himself. Jesus gently reprimanded him and then blessed him with more revelations. He then did the unthinkable and translated this depressed man, although in better humor when he got into the chariot, into heaven. I think that story was put there for us. When we have judged ourselves it is always good to get Jesus' opinion because His opinion is better and more balanced. Don't you think?

I can read. And I know whether I have a relationship with Christ or not. I don't want to discuss my religious status in the presence of people claiming perfection. And I certainly have no intention of discussing that topic here.

Jesus' opinion is certainly a balanced one. That's why I'm trying to understand what He says.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

We differ on the timing of perfection. Correct me if I'm wrong. You, and many others, believe we are first born again (converted) and then the Holy Spirit begins empowering us from within to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan - and that this process is stretched out over the course of a lifetime, so that by the time we've been Christians for a long time we come to the place where we no longer choose to indulge sin either intentionally or unintentionally.

But what I'm saying, and the quotes I've posted clearly say, is that the Holy Spirit first impresses us from without to "lay aside" (1 Peter 2:1,2) our sinful defects of character and then the moment we are drawn to the place where we would rather die than to cling to a known sin we experience the miracle of conversion (rebirth). At that very moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man (1 Peter 1:23, Eph 4:24 and 1 John 3:9) and at that moment we are radically transformed. The mind of the new man comes complete with all the attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit - so that we are totally new in Christ (2 Cor 5:17, Rom 6 and Gal 5:16-24). We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. We are free from sin and we must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 2:20 and 1 Peter 4:1,2).

We may slip back into the mind of the old man and sin, but this does not mean that we were never converted in the first place. God does not give up on us, instead He pleads with us to receive the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin and gives God the legal right to restore us to the relationship our sin severed. We are saved so long as we do not refuse to repent.

Zyph, can you please explain how this view contradicts the Bible and the SOP. The quotes I've referenced above and throughout this thread, and the other threads like this one, make it plain to me that the timing of conversion is as I have described. And it is good news to me. I've provided quotes that plainly teach the when-then timing of conversion and it's miraculous nature. Please show me how these quotes mean something else. Thank you.

At this point the Holy Spirit implants the sinless seed of the new man (which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit) and begins empowering us from within (seated upon the undivided throne of our soul temple) to imitate the holy example of Jesus.

The difference between our experience before and after the miracle of rebirth (conversion) is like night and day. Before we're born again the Spirit is outside impressing us to give up our sinful traits of character, whereas after we're born again the Spirit is inside empowering us to imitate the righteousness of Christ.

This night and day difference depends on where the Holy Spirit resides - either outside impressing or inside empowering. This is why conversion is so miraculous, such a radical transformation. One second we're sinners and the next we're saints. It all hinges upon whether or not we choose Jesus instead of sin once all our defects have been exposed. It's that simple.

If conversion were the result of anything other than the residence of the Holy Spirit then we would not be able to trace it's origin to the divine dealings of God. That is, if rebirth does not depend on the miraculous presence of the Holy Spirit then conversion is of human origin. But the Bible does not allow for this conclusion.

The miracle of rebirth is solely the work of God. The only thing we can do to experience the radical transformation of conversion is to surrender and submit to the drawing and wooing power of the Spirit. And then, once God brings us to the point where all our imperfections have been revealed and exposed, and we continue to choose Jesus, at that very moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man. Instantly we are a completely new creature in Christ. That's the miraculous power of rebirth.

At that precise moment, which is tailor made for each person, the Spirit discontinues impressing us from the outside and begins empowering us from the inside to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the sinless example of Jesus. This magical moment is nothing less than the awesome, miraculous transforming power of God exercised in the life of willing men and women who desire to live for Jesus with all their heart, mind, body and soul. It is the creative power of God at it's best.

The moment we experience the instantaneous miracle of conversion is the same moment we are born again a new man, a babe in Christ. We are born again morally complete. We are not, however, born again morally mature. Just as Jesus grew and developed and matured in the fruit and attributes of God, so too born again believers must imitate the example of Jesus by growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit and attributes of God.

Yes, there is no such thing as instant sanctification. Please don't confuse what I wrote about the miraculous moment of conversion with the life long process of maturing in the fruit and attributes of God - or what we call sanctification. Most people, however, are under the impression that sanctification is a life long process whereby God gradually exposes our defects of character until finally, after years of sinning and repenting and growing, we come to the point where we no longer choose to sin. This view of sanctification is totally unbiblical.

Until we understand the truth about conversion we cannot experience the miracle of rebirth. So long as we are under the impression that conversion involves a life of sinning and repenting as we gradually outgrow our defects of character the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within us or empower us to experience the victory verses and promises of God. We may leave off this and that sinful trait of character, but our victories are no different than the victories gained by unbelievers. Which, according to the Bible and the SOP, that's exactly the condition of the majority of professing Christians.

It is the truth that sets us free. I long for the day when the truth gains momentum and the sincere children of God begin experiencing the miracle of conversion - the joy imitating the sinless example of Jesus. In the meantime, I hope and pray for the successful proclamation of the truth as it is in Jesus, and that God's precious people will receive it warmly and victoriously.

The power to lay aside sin is not the same as the power that enables us to experience righteousness by faith. The source is the same, that is God, but the two experiences are not the same. Not sinning and righteousness by faith are two entirely different experiences. Not sinning has to do with justification, whereas righteousness by faith has to do with sanctification.

It's not about the outside and inside of a cup, rather it's about the Holy Spirit impressing us us to lay aside our defects of character and then empowering us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus. So long as we are cooperating with God's plan for us, and progressing at His pace for the expulsion of sin, the Spirit is the source that supplies the necessary power to lay aside sin as God reveals them during the process of conversion.

But if we refuse to progress according to God's schedule for us, and cling to a certain sin God has already revealed, then whatever victories we may be experiencing in other areas of our life are of the same nature as any other unbeliever who has laid aside the same imperfections (i.e., smoking, drinking, cussing, etc). In other words, not every sin we give up is the result of God's power. Any strong willed person can leave off certain types of sin without the assistance of God.

The difference between unbelievers who give up sin for selfish reasons and believers who give up sin for Jesus is the source of their ability to live without sin. The results may look the same to the uninformed onlooker (i.e., both no longer smoke or whatever) but the spiritual differences are without comparison in the eyes of God. When the source of "victory" is self then the results serve the cause of Satan. But when the source of victory is the Holy Spirit then the results serve the cause of God.

During the process of conversion, before we've experienced the miracle of rebirth, the victories we realize as we respond to the influence of the Spirit impressing us to lay aside sin are of a heavenly origin and serve the cause of God. This deep cleansing process progresses as fast as God is able to safely reveal our defects of character and move us onward and forward to the point of complete surrender and submission, to the magical moment of conversion and rebirth.

Then the Spirit takes His seat upon the throne of our soul temple and begins empowering us from within, not to overcome sin (that's already a done deal), but rather to experience righteousness by faith - i.e., imitating the sinless example of Jesus. Just as Jesus grew and developed from childhood to adulthood, so too the Spirit empowers us to grow in grace and mature in the attributes and fruit of God. This is a life long adventure that will continue throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

I have several issues of concern. First of all in my opinion you have artificially seperated justification and sanctification. In your attempts to clearly state both positions you end up negating both of them.

You also have artificially seperated the Holy Spirits work to reveal sin from the Holy Spirits presence in overcoming sin, and the Holy Spirits presence in creating the new birth experience.

I believe that you have desired to clarify these positions to the point that you also have created a sin oriented doctrine. In my opinion you have stated your thinking in a way the creates the idea that removal of sin is the key concept of salvation. To me that puts the cart before the horse. Salvation is Jesus oriented first and foremost. When Jesus is in the life, the new birth, then sin is removed by the Holy Spirit DA 671. As long as the Jesus connection is maintained then sin removal is an automatic by product. When the Jesus connection is broken then sin removal stops and the person starts picking up sins again.

If the focus is on sin then Satan is happy for that is his focus. In Steps to Christ Page 48 in the chapter Growing up Into Christ she says "When the mind dwells upon self, it is turned away from Christ, the source of strength and life. Hence it is Satans's constant effort to keep the attention diverted from the Saviour and thus prevent the union and communion of the soul with Christ....Many who are really conscientious, and who desire to live for God, he too often leads to dwell upon their own faults, and weakness, and thus by seperating them from christ, he hopes to gain the victory. We should not make self the center, and indulge anxiety and fear as to whether we shall be saved. All this turns the soul away from the Source of our strength. Commit the keeping of your soul to God, and trust in Him. Talk and think of Jesus. Let self be lost in Him....If you will leave yourself in His hands, He will bring you off more than conqueror through Him that has loved you."

I'm not sure how to respond to the suggestion that my posts artificially compartmentalize the gospel. For fear of sounding defensive may I say the sanctuary message definitely divides the plan of salvation into 3 distinct sections:

1. The Outer Court - which is where we behold Christ and Him crucified, confess and forsake our defects of character, crucify our old man traits of sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, receive the sinless mind of the new man, and obtain justification by faith.

2. The Holy Place - which is where we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, grow in grace and mature in the righteous attributes and fruit of God, imitate the sinless example of Jesus, and maintain justification by faith.

3. The Most Holy Place - which is where Jesus will one day examine and blot out the record and memory of our specifc sins.

Even though it seems as though the gospel of our salvation is separated into sections, in reality it is a very fluid experience. Progressive, but a smooth process just the same. And the timing of our experience is important. We must begin at the gate where we catch a glimpse of the price Jesus paid to redeem us from the penalty of sin. And if we are sensitive to the drawing influence of the Holy Spirit our hearts will overflow with love for God, and we will begin to loathe sin and crave the righteousness of Christ.

It is my hope and prayer that God's people will embrace the truth about conversion so that they can experience it unto the honor and glory of God. If we continue to tolerate sin in our life because our understanding of conversion leads us to believe that eliminating our unique defects of character requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting - if we truly believe this then our experience in Christ will leave us frustrated.

While we must not make laying aside sin our primary focus neither can we tolerate it as normal in favor of making Jesus our primary focus. If we are guilty of sin then eliminating it requires a certain amount of time and attention. In the old days it was quite involved what with having to find the perfect animal sacrifice, bringing it the temple, confessing the sin upon it, slitting its throat, and then the priest had to transfer the blood to the MHP.

Jesus is still the center of attention as we confess and forsake our sin, but, as you say, the main goal is to move beyond sin and begin walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, in "heavenly places" (namely, the holy place), imitating the holy example of Jesus. Eph 1:3.

We obtain justification in the outer court and then we maintain it in the holy place. True, justification and sanctification go hand-in-hand, but they are, nonetheless, separate and distinct functions operating within the bigger picture. Justification accommodates sinning and repenting, and sanctification involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

In order to obtain and maintain justification we must continually choose to live up to all the light God has revealed to us. Otherwise, Jesus cannot justify justifying someone who refuses to lay aside sin after God has convicted them. But living without the sin God has exposed thus far requires divine power. Once the Lord is finally able to expose all our defects of character, and if we are still cooperating with the Spirit of God to lay them aside - then, and only then, do we experience the miracle of conversion and receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes and fruit of God.

I have posted the Bible and SOP quotes that clearly teach this explanation of the timing and progession of salvation by faith, and if it would help I can post them again. Since the Bible and SOP describe conversion in these terms, and to this depth, I do not believe that I am trying to define it to minutely. Instead, understanding how the plan of salvation works is critical to our experiencing it.

Please feel free to respond to the things I have shared. I'm sorry if sounds like I'm defending my position, but hopefully, in the sweet spirit of Bible study, we can bounce ideas back and forth without feeling like we're fighting a war.

I'm not sure how to respond to the suggestion that my posts artificially compartmentalize the gospel. For fear of sounding defensive may I say the sanctuary message definitely divides the plan of salvation into 3 distinct sections:

1. The Outer Court - which is where we behold Christ and Him crucified, confess and forsake our defects of character, crucify our old man traits of sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, receive the sinless mind of the new man, and obtain justification by faith.

2. The Holy Place - which is where we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, grow in grace and mature in the righteous attributes and fruit of God, imitate the sinless example of Jesus, and maintain justification by faith.

3. The Most Holy Place - which is where Jesus will one day examine and blot out the record and memory of our specifc sins.

Even though it seems as though the gospel of our salvation is separated into sections, in reality it is a very fluid experience. Progressive, but a smooth process just the same. And the timing of our experience is important. We must begin at the gate where we catch a glimpse of the price Jesus paid to redeem us from the penalty of sin. And if we are sensitive to the drawing influence of the Holy Spirit our hearts will overflow with love for God, and we will begin to loathe sin and crave the righteousness of Christ.

It is my hope and prayer that God's people will embrace the truth about conversion so that they can experience it unto the honor and glory of God. If we continue to tolerate sin in our life because our understanding of conversion leads us to believe that eliminating our unique defects of character requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting - if we truly believe this then our experience in Christ will leave us frustrated.

While we must not make laying aside sin our primary focus neither can we tolerate it as normal in favor of making Jesus our primary focus. If we are guilty of sin then eliminating it requires a certain amount of time and attention. In the old days it was quite involved what with having to find the perfect animal sacrifice, bringing it the temple, confessing the sin upon it, slitting its throat, and then the priest had to transfer the blood to the MHP.

Jesus is still the center of attention as we confess and forsake our sin, but, as you say, the main goal is to move beyond sin and begin walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, in "heavenly places" (namely, the holy place), imitating the holy example of Jesus. Eph 1:3.

We obtain justification in the outer court and then we maintain it in the holy place. True, justification and sanctification go hand-in-hand, but they are, nonetheless, separate and distinct functions operating within the bigger picture. Justification accommodates sinning and repenting, and sanctification involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

In order to obtain and maintain justification we must continually choose to live up to all the light God has revealed to us. Otherwise, Jesus cannot justify justifying someone who refuses to lay aside sin after God has convicted them. But living without the sin God has exposed thus far requires divine power. Once the Lord is finally able to expose all our defects of character, and if we are still cooperating with the Spirit of God to lay them aside - then, and only then, do we experience the miracle of conversion and receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes and fruit of God.

I have posted the Bible and SOP quotes that clearly teach this explanation of the timing and progession of salvation by faith, and if it would help I can post them again. Since the Bible and SOP describe conversion in these terms, and to this depth, I do not believe that I am trying to define it to minutely. Instead, understanding how the plan of salvation works is critical to our experiencing it.

Please feel free to respond to the things I have shared. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm defending my position, but hopefully, in the sweet spirit of Bible study, we can bounce ideas back and forth without feeling like we're fighting a war.

We do not experience the miracle of rebirth (the product of conversion) until self is dead. This miracle takes place in and out of the laver in the outer court (baptism of the Holy Spirit). When we exit the laver we emerge as a babe in Christ. The Spirit implants the sinless seed of the new man and we immediately enter the holy place where we, like the baby Jesus, gradually grow in grace and mature morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may choose at any time to leave the sanctuary of our safety and salvation and resurrect, as it were, our old man and revert back to sin. Known moral sin cannot happen while we're walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man in the holy place. 1 John 3:9. Known moral sin only happens outside the sanctuary. That known moral sins are not committed in the holy place is evident from the fact no provisions exist there for dealing with sin. Sin only impacts the outer court and the most holy place, not the holy place.

So, are we converted when we enter the sanctuary? Yes, and no. We begin the process of conversion at the altar, but we are not "converted" until after self is dead and God implants the sinless seed of the new man at the laver and we enter the holy place. That's what makes sense to me according to the many quotes posted throughout this thread. What do you think?

AS we see and are affected by sight, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit changing and developing our senses as a new creation in Christ are we not led to the altar? Don't we then see the sacrifice of Jesus and understand more of how He saved us? Aren't we then invited to step up to the altar and lay ourselves down to be total sacrifices for Him? Doesn't the Holy Spirit maintain our fears to run out of this holy place and take up the old ways of life. When again we choose to stay are we not dieing daily to the old things and the old thoughts of life?

When we have been dedicated as sacrifices to Jesus do we not then have to start the process of cutting away the old thoughts and behaviors of the old life so that we may be growing in grace and truth? Do we not make trips to the laver to maintain our cleansed state? Do we not make excursions into the Holy Place to partake of the Word, be exposed to the light of the Holy Spirit and bow before the throne of God while enveloped in the incense of Christ's righteousness? Do we not go into the Most Holy Place, continually covered with the robe of Christ's righteousness and covered in the incense of His character. Do we not partake of the law, the manna, the priestly minsitrations of Jesus, and come under the privisions of mercy? Do we not partake of the Shekinah and enter into the joy of the angels? Do we not see our sins being removed from us by the truths of His Word and being carried out of the sanctuary and placed on Satan?

Aren't all these things only available to the converted person who has chosen to enter into the cleansing process? We know that at any time we can terminate the process for we always have freedom of choice. But as long as we choose to stay in Christ's righteousness are we not being cleansed? When that process is completed are we not totally united with God, in thought, word, deed, and nature?

To me the above is the conversion process. Total maturity is the point, that God can say "Ye that are holy be holy always." You are then sealed for your character is united to God and you will never choose to seperate yourself from Him and nothing but your own choice can ever seperate you from God.

I had a thought as I was reading these posts though, and it seems to me that perhaps being a "sinner" is very much like being an alchoholic. An alchoholic can never say that they are cured, they are always an alcoholic - till the day they die. It is not something they can escape.

Ah, but, as a recovering addict I can say that one does not need to indulge the behavior. Is that weakness there till I die, yes. But the weakness and actually participating in the behavior are two different things altogether.

Thanks for bringing this point of view up. I do relate sin and addiction very closely. But in these parallels I also see that both, through the power of God, are beatable. I have experienced the power of beating my addictions through God. I have not craved using, or indulged the behavior and thinking patterns that characterize this problem for years now. The promises of God are true. All things are possible if only we will believe. The story of the boy possessed by a demon and his father is a most powerful lesson. If Jesus is capable of overthrowing the actual physical demonic possession of an individual, he can surely overcome our psychological dependencies upon sin. My God can do all things. Period.

Praise God that He is bigger than everything, that His power supercedes all problems and He has given us (as a gift) Victory over any temptation that might come our way. Being a sinner is unavoidable, sinning is avoidable.

"By beholding we become changed". When we focus on the symptom rather than the disease, the disease grows and worsens. Fix your eyes on Christ and He will give you Victory over sin in your life!

quote:

---

Praise God that He is bigger than everything, that His power supercedes all problems and He has given us (as a gift) Victory over any temptation that might come our way. Being a sinner is unavoidable, sinning is avoidable.

---

I agree. Sinning is avoidable, but we still have our fallen human nature until Jesus comes comes.

I also completely agree that staying close to Jesus is the ONLY way to overcome. There is no other. I also believe that Jesus completely changes our characters. We are told that they are the ONLY thing we will take to heaven.

If only perfection will exist in heaven, and our characters make it to heaven, what does that tell us about what is possible in character perfection?

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

Of course, it is also clear we don't see eye to eye on the process and product of conversion or how the sanctuary illustrates it. I believe our differences are vast and critical, and lie at the foundation of the great controversy.

The opposing views, which are more than insignificant contradictions, must, as I understand the great controversy, be ironed out amoung God's remnant people. Conversion cannot be both views, it must necessarily be one or the other view.

Either conversion is complete the moment we're born again or it requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less until we cease from sin. Which one is it? Are we converted first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside sin? or do we first lay aside sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, and then gradually mature in the fruit of the Spirit? What does the Bible say?

Personally, when I read the Bible, I do not get the idea that it takes God a lifetime to expose sin and to empower us to cease from sin and to begin imitating the sinless example of Jesus by gradually growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

It's just not that hard for God to empower us to live without sin. All things are possible for God and for those who take Him at His word. Being a born again believer is not about not sinning. That would be self-centered living. Rather being a Christian is all about the Holy Spirit enabling us to reproduce the lovely character of Christ so that the world may behold in us Christ and Him crucified, risen and lifted on High.

I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus came to set sinners free, and that once free they are free indeed. John 8. Also, if Jesus is our example of what it means to be free, and if His life is what our life may be in Christ, then I find it terribly hard to term this the experience of a sinner.

Jesus possessed sinful flesh nature, and yet in spite of His fallen nature, He was able to stay connected to His Father and live without committing sin. Rom 8:3. Therefore, it would be difficult to say we are sinners because we have sinful flesh nature.

Also, Peter makes a contrast between sinner and saints, which makes it clear that we cannot be both.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If our differences are that broad then can you say that my post was a beautiful description of conversion? If you think that it is beautiful does that mean it is accurate? If it is accurate and beautiful then are you ready to accept it? If it is wrong then please do not call it beautiful for if it is wrong then it is candy coated error.

The opposing views, which are more than insignificant contradictions, must, as I understand the great controversy, be ironed out amoung God's remnant people. Conversion cannot be both views, it must necessarily be one or the other view.

Would you summarize the differences between the two positions?

Either conversion is complete the moment we're born again or it requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less until we cease from sin. Which one is it? Are we converted first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside sin? or do we first lay aside sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, and then gradually mature in the fruit of the Spirit? What does the Bible say?

For me you are converted first. But when you are converted the growth process begins. You are a perfect child of God at that moment, fully in harmony with God. Then in harmony with the laws of nature that child of God begins to grow in grace and truth. It can be wounded, diseased, misled, but still be a perfect child of God. As it grows it will develop more fruit until it reaches maturity in Christ and is then sealed.

My concern with my understanding of your perspective is that you start out with gaining victory over sin without being converted. How would one who is not converted want to give up sin? How would one who does not have the mind of Christ come up with the idea to be seperated from sin? How would the rebel submit to the process of overcoming if it is not converted? Where would this unconverted character get the energy, the desire, the focus, and the direction unless the Holy Spirit has control over the heart and the mind?

Personally, when I read the Bible, I do not get the idea that it takes God a lifetime to expose sin and to empower us to cease from sin and to begin imitating the sinless example of Jesus by gradually growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

Well if it is that easy how are you doing? If you sin are you unconverted? If you sin is it an error in judgment or flat out rebellion? Has God finished His project in you? If He has finished then is sanctification completed in you?

It's just not that hard for God to empower us to live without sin. All things are possible for God and for those who take Him at His word. Being a born again believer is not about not sinning. That would be self-centered living. Rather being a Christian is all about the Holy Spirit enabling us to reproduce the lovely character of Christ so that the world may behold in us Christ and Him crucified, risen and lifted on High.

God has sufficient power to do many things. But without forcing us to do something then how would He do it?
I agree that reproducing the character of Jesus is one of the central foci of the plan of salvation. So how do we get united as Christian brothers under the influence of the Holy Spirit?

During the process of conversion before we're converted the wooing "influence" of the Holy Spirit is what empowers us to overcome as the Lord gradually reveals our defects of character. The Spirit is outside impressing us to lay aside sin.

And then once we consent to completely die to self, by cooperating with the Lord until He exposes our final imperfection, at that point we experience the miracle of conversion, which is when God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruits of the Spirit.

Jesus is our example. He demonstrated what it means to be born again and to grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit. Since He did not overcome unknown defects of character, it is clear that walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man does not involve laying aside sin. All the Bible and SOP quotes that have been shared in this and other threads proves this point.

Do I live without sin? My answer is found in Gal 2:20 and 5:16 and 1 John 3:9 and 2 Peter 1:3-10. Just like Jesus, so long as I am connected to God and continue to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man I do not and cannot sin. Amen. Thank you Jesus.

Have I sinned in the last week or whatever? Of course that's between God and myself. Even if I have, is that the standard by which we judge what the Bible and SOP say about conversion? The truth is the truth whether we experience it or not. The truth is, Jesus is our example of what we may experience if we will claim the promises just as He did.

I cannot see the conversion experience as it seems you do, and I even get somewhat confused in reading your posts, because I can't understand your thinking. I have really tried. It is just that I know from experience that I can do NOTHING about changing, or getting rid of my defects, all I CAN do is come to Christ, and ask Him to change me. It is the COMING, that to me, is my part. It is the cleansing that is His part, as I come to Him daily, and give myself to Him. He has to cut away the parts I do not need, He has to wash me, and keep washing me at the laver, but, I must COME into His presence so He is allowed to do it!!! and I must partake of the light, bread, water, etc. that He offers me to share with Him.

I do want to comment, though, Mike. I REALLY do apreciate the fact that you are courteous and Christlike on this board. And, Greg is also.
And, there are some others who are. It is just that in the midst of all the animosity, and sometimes what sounds almost like hatred, I appreciate anyone who can discuss rather than argue. So, I had much rather read a well presented post of yours, whether or not I agree, than one full of venom, and the writer seemingly full of themselves. I don't believe that kind of witnessing will convince anyone for good. Thank you for the courtesy and Christlikeness you show.

I'm sorry that some of my ideas have left you more confused than blessed. I wish it wasn't that way. I guess Paul had that problem too. Not that I think I'm on the same level as a Bible writer. Nearly everything I've shared comes from Ellen's chapter on Nicodemus in the DA. She employs the same language, which is where I got it from (i.e., the process and product of conversion). Perhaps rereading it will help verify what I'm trying to convey.

Are you also having a hard time agreeing with the idea that self must first be completely crucified before we can experiecne the miracle of rebirth? This diea can be summed up in the expression - We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

That is, just as the baby Jesus had to grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit - so too we do not begin this walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man until after our sinful self has been completely eliminated. For it is only then that we can begin as Christ began His walk. He started His walk without sin, and therefore, if Jesus is our example, then it stands to reason that we must also start our walk without sin.

Please read 1 Peter 2:1,2 and 2:20-22 and 4:1,2 to verify this observation. I'm not near a Bible right now so I can't post it here for you to read conveniently. If these passages do not teach what I have written above, please share with me what you think they mean.

Yes, is the "timing" I guess you could say, that I don't understnd your thinking about.

Let me run for now, go and feed my six-toed Maine Coon cat, and my dog,Foxy, for it is almost dark!!
I will do some reading and get back to you, OK?

For me this text means that everything in I Peter must start with the new birth and then we can grow into His grace and truth. We can partake of the milk of the Word of God. We can then go on to the solid food of the Word of God. Hebrews 5:12-6:3. And then we can continue to grow up until we are perfect in Him. Ephesians 4:1-16.

Greg, did I hear you say that 1 Peter teaches us that we are first born again and then we are empowered to overcome our defects of character? If so, then I must disagree. 1 Peter 1:14 refers to their life of sin as something that is in the past, and that they are now obedient, holy even as God is holy. Verses 15,16.

The idea that becoming perfect is an experience that involves gradually laying aside supposed unknown defects of character is something I don't find taught in the Bible. The promise in 1 Peter 1:15,16 is - Be holy. It clearly does not say "become" holy. From this promise I gather that we either are or we are not holy. It must therefore be the gift of God, which we receive the moment we completely crucify all our imperfections and experience the miracle of rebirth.

Since we are by promise "holy" it makes sense to me that this promise teaches that being holy is something that happens when we are no longer unholy. It would be true in the sense of justification, and especially true in the sense of sanctification. In order for God to promise - Be ye Holy -. it seems logical that it must be true in reality and not just in the legally declared or justified sense of the word.

And another point on that matter: I'm getting the idea that most people who talk about perfection are under the impression that it has to do with becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting. But I don't see this idea taught in the Bible. Paul wrote in Hebrews 6:1-3 that going on to "perfection" has to do with life in Christ after sin has been crucified. This text does not allow for the common
misconception that growth in perfection has something to do with overcoming our moral defects of character.

The Bible and SOP always refer to overcoming our defects of character as something that happens before we are born again. Peter makes this point so plain in 1 Peter 2:1,2 and 4:1,2 that I cannot see how it can be misunderstood or stated any clearer.

When the Bible talks about "perfection" I believe it's using the word in the same sense that Jesus developed a perfect character over the course of His lifetime. Obviously this cannot involve sin in any way. The growth in perfection that Jesus experienced had to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. It had nothing to do with sinning and repenting.

Since Jesus is our example of post-conversion growth in grace, it makes perfect sense to conclude that walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man has nothing to do with our past moral defects of character, what Peter and Paul both call our past life of sin, and everything to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

Is there anybody out there willing to comment on 1 Peter 2:1,2 in light of the thoughts I have shared on this passage?

1. "With others, he had been stirred by the teaching of Jesus. Though rich, learned, and honored, he had been strangely attracted by the humble Nazarene. The lessons that had fallen from the Saviour's lips had greatly impressed him, and he desired to learn more of these wonderful truths." DA 167. To me this section states that Nicodemus' heart was drawn to Jesus by the truths that were taught. Not converted but drawn.

2. "There were some (Nicodemus?) that feared to oppose One who was so evidently moved upon by the Spirit of God...Nicodemus shared these feelings." DA 167 Nicodemus was aware that the Holy Spirit was moving Jesus.

3."Since hearing Jesus, Nicodemus had anxiously studied the prophecies relating to the Messiah; and the more he searched, the stronger was his conviction that this was the One who was to come." Bible study, of the prophecies, had strengthened the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah. DA 168

4. "He was a witness of the scene when jesus drove out the buyers and the sellers; he beheld the wonderful manifestation of divine power; he saw the Saviour receiving the poor and healing the sick; he saw their looks of joy, and heard their words of praise; and he could not doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was the Sent of God." Miracles strengthened the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah. The Holy Spirit witnessing to him, the Scriptures witnessing to him, and the miracles were all convicting him of the truth. DA 168

5."His words were designed to express and to invite confidence; but they really expressed unbelief. he did not acknowledge jesus to be the Messiah, but only a teacher sent from God." Nicodemus under conviction but not ready for surrender. DA 168

6."In His infinite wisdom He saw before Him a seeker after truth. He knew the object of this visit, and with a desire to deepen the conviction already resting upon His listeners mind, He came directly to the point, saying solemnly, het kindly, "Verily verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3" According to God Nicodemus was a seeker after truth, but needed to deepen the conviction until He was born again. DA 168

7. "He said to Nicodemus, It is not theoretical knowledge you need so much as spiritual regeneration. (New birth). You need not to have your curiosity satisfied, but to have a new heart. You must receive a new life from above, before you can appreciate heavenly things. Until this change takes place, making all things new, it will result in no saving good for you to discuss with Me My authority or My mission." Jesus says that all change prior to a new birth is fruitless and of no effect. DA 171

8."Nicodemus had heard the preaching of John the Baptist...He himself had felt that there was a lack of spirituality among the Jews...He had hoped for a better state of things at the Messiah's coming. Het the heart-searching message of the Baptist had failed to work in him conviction of sin...He was a strict Pharisee and prided himself on his good works...He felt secure of the favor of God. He was startled at the thought of a kingdom too pure for him to see in his present state." DA 171 Nicodemus had many works but he was not converted. The very good works even clouded his understanding of need.

9. "He felt that he needed no change. Hence his surprise at the Saviour's words. He was irritated by their close application to himself. The pride of the Pharisee was struggling against the honest desire of the seeker after truth..." DA 171 Pride was struggling against the desire of truth. DA 455

10. "Like many other when cutting truth is brought home to the conscience, he revealed the fact that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. There is in him nothing that responds to spiritual things; for spiritual things are spiritually discerned." Nicodemus still seeking after truth but not changed into a new man yet.

11. "He was convinced that he was in the presence of the One whom John the Baptist had foretold." The Holy Spirit bringing things home to the heart.

12. "The fountain of the heart mut be purified before the streams can become pure....The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only the the effectual working of the Holy Spirit." No spiritual change can occur without the Holy Spirit drawing to that decision time.

13. DA 172 last paragraph describes the subtle changes brought about the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

14. "So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. (New Birth) Sinful thought are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the coutenance reflects the light of heaven...The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. The that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God." Power of the Holy Spirit woos and prepares the mind and the surrender of the soul to the Holy Spirit brings the change. Then more clear victories can take place.

15. "It is impossible for finete minds to comprehend the work of redemption. Its mystery exceeds human knowledge; yet he who passes from death to life realizes that it is a divine reality." Wisdom dictates that we not try too hard to identify every aspect of conversion for it is a mystery.

16. "While Jesus was speaking, some gleams of truth penetrated the rulers mind. The softening, subduing influence of the Holy Spirit impressed his heart. Het he did not fully understand the Saviour's words." DA 173 Nicodemus still struggling but needs more of the Holy Spirt's power.

17."Yet Christ spoke with such solemn dignity, and both look and tone expressed such earnest love, that Nicodemus was not offended as he realized his humiliating condition." DA 173 Still struggling but softening to truth.

18. "Nicodemus had read these scriptures with a clouded mind. He saw that the most rigid obedience to the mere letter of the law as applied to the outward life could entitle no man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the estimation of men, his life had been just and honorable; but in the presence of Christ he felt that his heart was unclean, and his life unholy." DA 174 Nicodemus becoming clear that he had a problem and that he needed help.

19. "Nicodemus was being drawn to Christ. As the Saviour explained to him concerning the new birth, he longed to have this change wrought in himself. By what means could it be accomplished? Jesus answered the unspoken question..." DA 174 The heart cry is going out "What must I do to be saved? Look and live is the answer.

20. "Nicodemus recieved the lesson." DA 175 He chose to receive Jesus and converted.

21. "He searched the Scriptures in a new way,(he was converted) not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit." DA 175 Now that he was converted he could begin to grow just like a plant or just like a child.

22. "Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. And we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God." All good things come from God alone.

23. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the corss in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps 40:8" DA 176

24. "Nicodemus hid the tuth in his heart, and for three years there was little apparent fruit." DA 176 Little visible fruit but the plant of faith had found good soil and was accomplishing God's purposes. Nicodemus was converted.

25. "But Jesus was acquainted with the soil (see COL 33-69) into which He cast the seed. The words spoken at night to one listener in the lonely mountain were not lost. For a time Nicodemus did not publicly acknowledge Christ, but he watched His life, and pondered His teachings. In the Sanhedrin council he repetedly thwarted the schemes of the priest to destroy Him. When at last Jesus was lifted up on the cross, Nicodemus remembered the teaching upon Olivet...The light from that secret interview illumined the corss upon Calvary, and Nicodemus saw in Jesus the world's Redeemer." DA 176-177 The babe was growing and developing in that three year period.

26. DA 177 Nicodemus producing abundant harvest of fruit at just the time the disciples needed it most.

27. DA 775-776 Describe Nicodemus final experience and confirmation of faith.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this story.

During those 3 three years leading up to the cross, I believe he was responding to the wooing power of the influence of the Spirit, but that he did not actually experience the miracle of rebirth until the moment he stepped forward and declared Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

I liked what you wrote about good works before conversion. Nicodemus was full of good works. So that by the time he was converted he had very few changes to make. But from God's point of view the difference between his good works before and after conversion was like night and day. Now that he was converted his outward acts of behaviour, though in many ways were no different from a human point of view, could be felt within his heart with all the difference in the world.

If we are only half converted, or even 99% converted we are still unconverted. We are not converted until we are completely free of our defects of character. Which is why Ellen White describes conversion as a process and a product. During the process we are responding to the influence of the Spirit to lay aside our sinful traits of character, but we are not converted until the moment we completely crucify self and receive the gift or product of conversion - the sinless seed of the new man.

We may be converted on this and that defect, but until we are completely converted on all our defects of character we are not truly converted. I don't believe we are converted in bits and pieces. We are "convicted" little by little as God gradually exposes our imperfections, but we are not actually "converted" until He brings us to the point of total surrender and submission.

Whatever sin we lay aside as we respond to the wooing power of the influence of the Spirit of God, and before we're completely converted, is not of the same origin as when we are fully set free of all our defects and have been born again. The power to live without sin after we have been born again is the direct result of the indwelling
power of God, and not the indirect influence of God like it is during the process of conversion before we're born again.

Are we saved should we die before we complete the process of conversion? That's up to God. No doubt He will base His decision at least partly on the choices we would have made had not death prematurely claimed our life. If we were in the habit of cooperating with the influence of God to lay aside our defects of character, but died before He could finish exposing our defects and influencing us to completely crucify self, then we can be sure God will save us in the first resurrection.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

the way i interpret the above verse is:

The wooing of the Holy Spirit waters a planted seed and the seed dies and springs forth the blade, this equals the new birth.....then the growth begins and matures to the "full corn in the ear." A seed is dead until planted and watered then it brings forth, new life, blossoms and brings forth fruit. the beginning of our christian experience i see is the New Birth and God starts the re - creation of the new life..blade [baby christian] then the ear [christian growth [walk]] and full ear [mature, fit for Christ's Kingdom] completed product. Ready for translation.

God will have a people that are "full corn in the ear", they will vindicate God's character. They will prove that Satan's lies against the "Rulers of Heaven" are untrue.

1 - Based on your understanding of conversion, are you converted?

2 - If you are converted, are you completely free of your defects of character?

3 - Would those who know you best, for example, your wife, Judy, testify that you are completely free of your defects of character?

Remember, I said you don't need to answer the above questions. In fact, you don't even need to respond to this or any other post.

quote:

---

Mike said:
If we were in the habit of cooperating with the influence of God to lay aside our defects of character, but died before He could finish exposing our defects and influencing us to completely crucify self, then we can be sure God will save us in the first resurrection.

---

Are you, therefore, saying Mike that there will be unconverted people rising back to life and going to heaven with Jesus at the first resurrection?

Like the seed planted in the soil, Jesus became a seed in the womb of Mary. Then He was born into the world like the first blade springing up out of the ground. Next He grew and developed into a mature plant with blossoms and a sweet smelling fragrance.

If we are willing to allow the seed to blossom illustration explain the life of Jesus, then it is clear that this illustration does not describe growth in grace in terms of out growing defects of character, but rather it demonstrates that self must first die, and then God plants within us the sinless seed of the new man - the same as it was for Jesus.

Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9 tell us that the divinely implanted seed we receive at the moment of rebirth is the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruits of the Spirit. Just like it was for Jesus at birth. Jesus was born perfect, and then He became perfect as He matured from childhood to adulthood.

We, like the baby Jesus, are born again complete, and then we too must also mature in the fruit of the Spirit - the same as Jesus grew and developed from childhood to manhood.

Can anybody show me why Jesus is not the perfect example of how it is for people who are born again? Just as Jesus began and became perfect, so too we begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

Can anybody show why Jesus is not anexample of what it means to be born again?

Rom 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

"WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE"...what a wonderful promise. By Christ's total dependance upon His Father He became perfect through suffering.......By our total dependance on our Heavenly Father, we too will be made perfect through suffering. "The love of God Constraineth us" When Jesus says follow me...He means to pattern our lives after His perfect example.

Jesus overcame the world as we must overcome the world....He was tempted in all points as we are but he did not fall. He had no defects of character to overcome but He will give us His victories for our failures when we trust wholly in him. We were born with propensities to evil, He was not, but when we become born again, He will win all the battles for us. Praise God From whom all blessings fall.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

By the way, I like how you repreneted "overcoming the world." Most people assume overcoming the world means gradually out growing our defects of character. But according to Rev 3:21 to "overcome" means to live without sin the same as Jesus lived without sin. I just love that.

Also, you mentioned Jesus did not have cultivated propensities to sin because He never sinned therefore He did not possess sinful traits of character. Would you conclude from this that Jesus had an advantage over resisting temptation not available to us? If so, in what way?

As I see it, Jesus inherited the same fallen nature we possess, with all it's propensities for sin, but that He never chose to act upon the sinful suggestions generated by His sinful flesh nature, and which are communicated to His sinless new man mind.

We, on the other hand, naturally act out the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature, and as a result we also form cultivated propensities for sin. Which Jesus never did. Did that give Jesus an advantage over us? I think not. Because we begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. That is, our cultivated habits of sin are first crucified (Rom 6:6) and then we receive the sinless seed of the new man (Eph 4:24), and from this point forward we begin as Jesus began, without our old man habits of sin (1 John 3:9).

Is that how you see it?

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5---CT- John---PR- 04
-PG- 1128
(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.)
"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He
could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was
assailed with temptations in Eden."

His human nature experienced what we do...tempted in all points....but without sin. He never tasted of sin to give Him the propensity to sin but his temptations were far greater then our can ever be. Meaning, on the cross He was forsaken by His Father...we on the otherhand will never be forsaken but may gain spiritual strength from God under all circumstanses. Did Jesus an advantage over us....no a thousand times no...never could He have been our substitute or our example if that were the case.

Our human problem is in giving ourselves to Jesus yet, taking ourselves back to go our own way. Like Abraham of Old, if things don't move fast enough or plans don't go our way...we seem to make decisions we regret later if we had been willing to "wait on God." The proccess is long but praise the Lord He is patient, that is why we are still here but the time will come, when the number is made up, He will come....May we be in that number, it is up to us.

"Character perfection": Pages 312-333 from "Christ Object Lessons" is the best reference i can give you.

Even during the great time of trouble...after the sealing time....our characters will increase in faith, hope, and patients....Praise the Lord for His finishing work.

The Great Controversy---The Time of Trouble
-PG- 630
Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience. With sympathizing tenderness, angels have witnessed their distress
and have heard their prayers. They are waiting the word of their Commander to snatch them from their peril. But they must wait yet a little longer. The people of God must drink [631]
of the cup and be baptized with the baptism. The very delay, so painful to them, is the best answer to their petitions. As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. Yet for the elect's sake the time of trouble will be shortened. "Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him? . . . I tell you that He will avenge them speedily." Luke 18:7, 8. The end will come more quickly than men expect. The wheat will be gathered and bound in sheaves for the garner of God; the tares will be bound as fagots for the fires of destruction."

Romans
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Can we read these passages and conclude that a born again believer is a sinner, or both a sinner and saint?

It would be possible to maintain that a born again, converted Christian is a sinner if indeed they were still sinning. But according to the Bible a born again believe has ceased from sin:

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In light of these plain testimonies, how can we argue that a born again believer still sins while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man?

If we take all of Sister White's statements on this topic, which Ralph Larson has compiled in the book, The Word Made Flesh, it is obvious to me that Ellen White talks about two categories of sinful propensities:

1. Inherited Propensities, which refer to the fallen flesh clamorings associated with sinful flesh nature. The sinful suggestions generated by our fallen flesh nature and communicated in the form of conscious thoughts and feelings constitute temptations. We are not held accountable for them unless we desire or do them.

2. Cultivated Propensities, which refer to the old man traits of sinful character we develop as we act out the sinful suggestions that enter our minds. We are held accountable and must confess and forsake them if we are to be saved from sin.

We posses both categories of sinful propensities until we crucify self and receive the sinless seed of the new man, then our old man cultivated propensities die. Then all we have left to deal with is our inherited sinful propensities, which by the grace of God we can keep under control. Gal 5:24 and 1 Cor 9:27.

Jesus, however, never sinned therefore He never cultivated old man sinful propensities. But I think it's clear that He had to resist His inherited sinful flesh propensities the same as born again believers. The problem is when we assume that possessing sinful flesh nature is a sin. But clearly it is not a sin to possess sinful flesh nature, since it is plain that the 144,000 pass through JTOT without being guilty of sin even though they still possess sinful flesh nature.

To say that Jesus possessed "sinful flesh" nature without its inherited evil propensities is to say that He didn't really posses sinful flesh, but rather that He only assumed a degenerate flesh body, which if this were the case then it could not be said of Jesus that He was tempted in all points and in all ways as we are. The only way that He could have been tempted like us in every way is if He also had to resist the internal clamorings of His fallen flesh nature. If He did not have to overcome this avenue of temptation then He missed a major part of being a human, which would mean He is not able to identify with us in a major way.

If you want to read the quotes that give this understanding from EGW they are in the Ralph Larson book, and they are compiled in 7A towards the back of the book.

All sin is in three catigories....Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. This is where i believe the similarity is in temptations..Yours...Jesus' and mine. the temptation falls somewhere in the boundries of the above. Propensiry means habit....you have done it once so it is easier to do it again...this is what humans have for all have sinned. However, Jesus in noway sinned once, even though severly temped, yet he remained without sin. His Temptations were great yet never did he sin. He did not develop a sinful propensity even though he had the sinful flesh because he never yeilded to any temptation.

I hear arguments by some that Jesus never had TV,etc.. so he doesn't know what it is like to have this temptation....but it does fall into one of the three catagories above. His nature did allow Him to be tempted in all points, as we read the account of His struggle with Satan in the wilderness. He is our example.

I think i must make myself clear on one point that i think I have not made clear enough before....

The new Birth must take plade not just once and we are on our way to Glory....We must die daily. To be covered by the White Robes of Christ's righteousness, it is a daily experiencea walk that starts each day by complete surrender. If we are to claim the promises of God, the relationship must be in tact and maintained. Like David, we can choose to commit knowing sins and fall out of a saving relationship and need another 'Born Again" experience. As long as we are fighting the good fight.....Christ's robe covers our slips and falls but when we choose to slip and fall without repentance...we are out of favor with God. It is not a Once saved always saved relationship if it is not maintained through all the temptations and mistakes. That is how...we climb the steps from Glory to Glory, Jesus merits are covering our defects as we struggle upward with our life's challenges. Again i point to COL....just a few quotes.

Will continue...sometimes things get in the way....fixing dinner is one. Back soon

I remember that it is taught in the parable of the Wedding garment, that along with the invitation, the wedding garment was provided. By excepting the invitation, one receives the garment. If we choose not to put it on, we reject the invitation, hence we are cast out. This tells me that if we do put the wedding garment on when it is received….we have the new birth in Christ at the beginning of our Christian walk.
The HolySpirit does the convicting of sin and character defects. One does not give up a ‘sin’ until one is convicted of that sin. One does not gain victory over a character defect until they are convicted of this ‘character defect’.

The “great Controversy” takes place in our lives when we are putting on the wedding garment. Satan didn’t bother with us until he saw he was looing us to Christ. The temptation to “not give up our evil ways” is now the target of Satan and the war begins. As we grow, we “delight to do His will…and pray for the law to be written in our hearts.” “By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God’s commandments.

Christ's Object Lessons----PG- 311
“Christ in His humanity WROUGHT OUT a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isa. 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined
to be "the transgression of the law." ………..When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, NOT THE NAKEDNESS AND DEFORMITY OF SIN, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.”

Christ's Object Lessons----PG- 330
The Lord has a great work to be done, and He will bequeath the most in the future life to those who do the most faithful, willing service in the present life. The Lord
chooses His own agents, and each day under different circumstances He gives them a trial in His plan of operation. In each true-hearted endeavor to work out His plan,
He chooses His agents not because they are perfect but because, through a connection with Him, they may gain perfection.

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never
should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of
character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” [beginning of our walk] [new birth]
And those who would be workers together with God must strive for perfection of every organ of the body and quality of the mind. True education is the preparation of the physical, mental, and moral powers for the performance of every duty; it is the training of body, mind, and soul for divine service. This is the education that will
endure unto eternal life.

-PG- 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by
accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one
unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.”
END OF QUOTES

It is so hard to stop with these quotes…these inspired words of encouragement are living water. Please read the following 2 pages…they are truth that we need so much. Just one more [forgive the long post] but this is eternal truth…
Pg 333

“ As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. ALL HIS BIDDINGS ARE ENABLINGS.”

Praise the Lord.

I am enjoying this exchange with you, hope you will be back soon.

Jesus is our light of life.

I'm sorry I haven't been online in the last couple of days. Been busy traveling between jobs. I have a self-supporting outdoor ministry, and it keeps me pleasantly busy.

I really like what you wrote about Jesus and how He empowers us live to up light we have at every stage of our walk in the Spirit. He is truly our Lord and Saviour.

You said something about - "I die daily." What is your take on this passage? Does it mean that Paul sinned daily therefore he had to die daily? Or does it mean that he died once unto sin and now he maintains it on a daily basis?

And what is your take on the phrase - We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception? Is Jesus our example before or after the old man habits of sin are crucified (dead and buried)?

As you understandit how and when is 1 John 3:9 a reality for us?

The "born again" experience starts when the seed is first watered and i respond. I respond all sinful and dirty with my own filthy rags. But this is the beginning of the transformation. The seed starts to put up the first blade and though large clods of dirt and rain try to knock it down and sometimes it does, the seed is protected by the Creator God and the transformation continues thru evey stage of it's growth. When God looks at it, He doesn't see the struggling, falling, struggling again sprout, He sees the Blood of His Son covering the growing blade that will reach maturity in the future. God sees the Saint not the sinner.

- The Signs of the Times----DT- 04-30-96
- By Mrs. E. G. White.
- "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he can not sin, because he is born of God." The standard which is to test every doctrine, every theory, every profession, is the law of God. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,"--break the law of Jehovah. If a man is born of God, he will respect the principles of the divine government, and will not wilfully transgress the law of God in thought, or word, or action. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures." Jesus prayed that his disciples might be sanctified through the truth, and added, "Thy word is truth."

end quote

As the sinner goes from Knowledge to knowledge and Glory to Glory each step is a higher rownd. Each lesson learned, each test a victory reach a fitness for the kingdom, clothed in the Robe of christ's righteousness which was places on us at the beginning of our walk.....God only sees that we have not sinned because we are being sanctified by the truth. Thank you Jesus

The motive is pure love and what is manifested during the process is Love. This shows the "Faith is genuine."

From my understanding of the seed and soil illustration - the seed is sinless (1Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9) and is the same in each case. It is the soil that varies from person to person, and only the person who has good soil experiences the miracle of rebirth.

In any case, the seed is never considered corrupt or defective. It is always and only perfect and without sin or imperfection. The soil must be good in order for the seed to survive and thrive. Thus the soil cannot symbolize sin. Eph 4:24.

Jesus is the best example I can think of to explain the soil and the seed illustration. The soil of His heart was good, not withstanding He assumed fallen flesh nature. This clearly indicates that the soil is not our fallen nature, but rather it is our heart.

The seed of Jesus, as far as character perfection is concerned, is exactly the same seed we receive when we are born again. John 1:12,13. The seed is perfect, and as it grows and unfolds it reveals perfection more and more unto the perfect day - from glory to glory. It does not accumulate perfection along the way. It begins perfect and it becomes perfect. The perfection already inherent in the seed unfolds as it progresses and matures and eventually blossoms. It isn't any more perfect when it blossoms. The difference between seed and blossom isn't perfection, but rather maturity. The blossom is in the seed from the beginning.

And so it was with Jesus - He began perfect and He became perfect, which is exactly the way it is for born again believers. They begin perfect and they become perfect. But self must first die, and then God implants within us the same seed He implanted within Jesus (minus His divinty), and just like Jesus we become perfect as the seed unfolds and matures and blossoms.

Is that how you understand the seed and the soil?

The seed is perfect and the watering by the Holy Spirit is perfect that is why i say, the "new sprout/blade" is a "new birth" that will grow and mature and blossom, and bring forth fruit in the true searching believer. The only way to have and maitain a perfect character is to partake of Jesus Divine Nature with His enabling power to reach victory. His Merits not mine. When God looks at each struggling child, He sees not the sin but the perfect man that he will become by staunchly clinging to the vine.

The clods the seeds struggle thru are our battles with self to give our wills to Christ and choose His ways over our old natures. Much effort is exertred to give sway to what is right when satan is pressuring for his way to be done. Only In Christ may we be victorious.

God consented to become a poor, sinful flesh human man and come to this sinful earth as an example for us, He overcame as we must overcome, He paid the price for our sins, that we may become rich in spiritual riches, partake of His Divine Nature, be taken to His heaveny home and spend eternity with Him.

This is impossible but it is also true, the promise is that if we are willing to follow Him, this is where it leads.

When we consent to follow Him, We become Born again. The seed dies so it can begin to grow anew.

In what way is Jesus our example - before or after we cease from sin?

The furtile seed is perfect but is nothing until it is allowed to abide in a heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to water it from the fountains of living water. The sprout is the visual evidence that the heart/mind has opened to the sanctifying truths of Gods word. Milk is fed to the tender shoot and it grows little by little. the reformation of the body and soul are in progress. Satan, alerted to loosing one of his followers alerts his army, bringing in his forces to discourage, question and frustrate the one that is learning a new life style, and saving truths. It is difficult to accept new truths, some go against all you have learned in church since a child and these need to be unlearned, God's Angels and Satan's angels contend for the soul of this new babe in Christ , like for moses body. The battle fought in the strength of God is already won by His Son Jesus and when victorious with this step, another one appears and one goes forth learning and climbing from glory to the next.

New birth: when we act on the invitation. Nicodemus heard the "plan of Salvation" from Jesus' lips.....but he did not accept the watering of that seed for three years. His Born again experience didn't happen until he saw eveidence of the truth hanging on Calvary. The perfect seeds do not always spring into perfect blades until one is ready to "be still and know that I am your God" experience the new life.

In What way is Jesus our example-before or after we cease from sin?

If we know nothing about Jesus God or Holy Spirit...it means nothing but a consciousness of a guilt. When the Holy spirit woos and one listens to the wooing.....it will grow to a conscious decision for God. He will become our example for overcoming temptation and living a godly life. When we are Hidden in His life we live in reflection of how he leads and has an active influence in all that we do and is doing for us every moment.Growing more and more like Him as we look to Him and Looking forward to His coming the the Eternity we will spend with Him. Years of thankfullnees for His Blessings.

It is always Jesus, It is always lifting Him up to others. He is the pattern and the enabling power overcome ever defilement. We shall be made anew without spot or wrinkle, complete and mature by Him living in us.

He is waiting for a purified people.....When the work is finished in our hearts, it will also be finished in the world and God can come.

quote:

---

Conversions are not all alike

All are not constituted alike. Conversions are not all alike. Jesus impresses the heart, and the sinner is born again to new life. Often souls have been drawn to Christ when there was no violent conviction, no soul rending, no remorseful terrors. They looked upon an uplifted Saviour, they lived. They saw the soul's need, they saw the Saviour's sufficiency, and His claims, they heard His voice saying, "Follow Me," and they rose up and followed Him. This conversion was genuine, and the religious life was just as decided as was that of others who suffered all the agony of a violent process.--1SM 177. {PaM 125.2}

---

In The Blesed Hope

Avalee

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: Avalee ]

In light of this quote and the many others shared on this thread, it amazes me that so many people maintain that we are born again first and then the Holy Spirit begins the slow process of empowering us to lay aside our defects of character?????

The Bible clearly teaches that God first "impresses" us to lay aside our defects of character and then we experience the miracle of rebirth. This "process" may, depending on the person, take many months to many years. But we are not converted or born again a new man in Christ until after we cooperate with the Lord and completely crucify our old man habits of sin.

This is so clearly taught in the Bible and SOP that it surprises me so many people miss it or fight it. Why would anyone want to defend the mistaken idea that conversion begins the moment we're born again and that we then spend the rest of our lives gradually out growing our moral defects of character???? How utterly miserable!!! If that's what God and the Bible is promising then I don't want anything to do with it.