I like these studies on conversion. I think that this is one of the very most misunderstood subjects in the church, and in all of Christianity.

I guess I would have to say I have a very similar conception to Mike's as to what conversion really is. Why? Because his description is what I have experienced in my life, and that this experience is taught in the Bible as what conversion is.

I see many people maligning that point of view, but I would like to say for long stretches of my life I have been at total peace with God, with a conscience that doesn't accuse me in any way. Will I still acknowledge that I have a sinful nature during these times? Of course I will. I know exactly what and who I am without Jesus Christ. But, I am another person entirely with Jesus as a constant companion.

Jesus taught this lesson in His conversation with Nicodemus. I would like to draw some parallels between what Jesus told Nicodemus, the actual life of Jesus here on earth, and other statements Jesus made as to what the kingdom of heaven is.

Jesus first recorded words to Nicodemus are as follows:

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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

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The first thing we need to really understand here is what it is Jesus told Nicodemus that he wouldn't be able to see if he wasn't born again--the kingdom of heaven. So let's answer some of the typical questions of who, what, where, when, why, and how.

So where does Jesus say that this kingdom that He is talking to Nicodemus about exists?

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Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

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How powerful does Jesus say this kingdom within you will be?

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Mark 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

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Jesus says that though it starts out small it will overshadow everything else. It will be the one dominant feature of what is within you. Everything else will be subservient to it.

Who can enter into it?

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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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The only ones who can enter are those who are born again.

Let's shift gears just a little bit and look at this last text in some depth. In the Greek the word translated as born properly meant to be born of the father, and only be extension did it mean to be born of a mother. If we look at Jesus what is it is one of the major separations between Him and the rest of humanity? It is who His Father was. So, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that to be born again we must be born of the Father. Nicodemus is puzzled and asks how this can happen to an man when he is old. Notice Jesus' answer:

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John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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Jesus tells Nicodemus that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. What do we find in the history of the life of Jesus? That the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus was born. Now don't get me wrong here I am not trying to go off into mysticism in any way shape or form. I am simply drawing parallels from Jesus said and what happened in His life. Thus, we must be born of the Spirit to be born again. We are no longer of (controlled by) the flesh, because we are of (controlled by) the Spirit. Those are Jesus words. That is what happened in Jesus own life. This is what He promised to us. The continual abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus agrees with this.

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John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

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He is saying that the motives of the heart are different when one is born by the Spirit. No longer is one driven by selfishness, but the Spirit of God. So, where is sin if we are motivated by God's Spirit? It has no place. The only way sin can come back to prominence is for us to separate from Jesus.

Ellen White and Paul concur:

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Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Eph. 6:16. {AG 33.1}

Satan watches his opportunity to seize the precious graces when we are unguarded, and we shall have a severe conflict with the powers of darkness to retain them, or to regain a heavenly grace if through lack of watchfulness we lose it. But . . . it is the privilege of Christians to obtain strength from God to hold every precious gift. Fervent and effectual prayer will be regarded in heaven. When the servants of Christ take the shield of faith for their defense, and the sword of the Spirit for war, there is danger in the enemy's camp. {AG 33.2}

Amidst the snares to which all are exposed, they need strong and trustworthy defenses on which to rely. Many in this corrupt age have so small a supply of the grace of God, that in many instances their defense is broken down by the first assault, and fierce temptations take them captives. The shield of grace can preserve all unconquered by the temptations of the enemy, though surrounded with the most corrupting influences. By firm principle, and unwavering trust in God, their virtue and nobleness of character can shine, and, although surrounded with evil, no taint need be left upon their virtue and integrity. {AG 33.3}

The work of conquering evil is to be done through faith. Those who go into the battlefield will find that they must put on the whole armor of God. The shield of faith will be their defense and will enable them to be more than conquerors. Nothing else will avail but this--faith in the Lord of hosts, and obedience to His orders. Vast armies furnished with every other facility will avail nothing in the last great conflict. Without faith, an angel host could not help. Living faith alone will make them invincible and enable them to stand in the evil day, steadfast, unmovable, holding the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end. {AG 33.4}

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I really feel like the Christian church as a whole has been sold a bill of goods as to what conversion really is. Who would want this? The devil. Why? Because if he can put us to sleep and at ease with a false sense of security will we be holding onto Jesus as tightly as we should be, and with which it is our privilege to do? Absolutely not. We will be, poor, blind, miserable, naked, and think we are rich and increased with spiritual goods. Nothing could please the devil more than that. He has won if this is how we are.

One more text to add to my post from above and the parallels I drew between Christ's birth and out rebirth.

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Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

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I think all this ties in with what John had to say too.

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1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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We are not yet immortal and sinless as God is yet because of our sinful natures, but should this stop us from purifying ourselves through faith that we may be pure, even as He is pure? I think not. We sell out the promises and blessings of God all too cheaply. We are satisfied as Esau was with selling our birthrights for a pot of stew. We look far short of where God would have us to focus. We become and are unsuccessful Christians because that is what we expect to be.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

Zyph, thank you for sharing those quotes and pointing out the differences between justification and sanctification. And I think you will be happy to know that I agree with what you wrote. I truly believe John was converted early in Jesus' ministry, and that he experiencing sanctification.

Yes, he manifested passions that demonstrated he had room to grow, but I'm not totally sure he was "willfully" sinning against Jesus. His desire to punish people who did not properly appreciate Jesus was based on jealousy for Jesus and the story of Elisha. And his desire to serve next to Jesus either on His left or right hand was motivated, at least in part, by his love of being around Jesus. I wish my problems were as "pure" as that!!!

Gary, thank you for expressing the ideas near and dear to my heart in such an eloquent manner. I appreciate the quotes you used and how you related them to the subject. The idea that self must first be crucified BEFORE we experience the miracle of rebirth is not very popular. And yet the Bible makes it so clear. John 3:6, which you quoted, plainly says that that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And who can forget 1 John 3:9.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. It is rare to find someone else with the understanding that conversion is a completely life altering experience, and that it requires a total turn about that can only come from a total attitude change about self.

Self-surrender will never be a popular subject. It cuts waaay to close to home. It makes religion and God intensely personal. Self-surrender is the reason that many of the multitude quit following Jesus during His lifetime. They wanted a religion that didn't require self to die to reap the benefits of it.

Zyph:
The quotes that you shared were the ones that I would quote for you. Have you accepted those quotes for you? Will you allow Jesus to come into your heart and like John revel in His beauty? Will you trust that no matter what has happened to you that Jesus' plans are working in you right this moment and you can have peace because He is in charge and because He is working out His will in your heart and mind?

As you know everybody has a point of view on this thread and other threads, but the most important point of view for you is yours and Jesus'. When the two of you are satisfied then if we have the mind of God in us we to will see it the same way. Please do not allow our well intentioned thoughts to get in the way of your realtionship with Jesus.

When Elijah, a man of like passions as we are, was asking God to kill him he had given up on himself. Jesus gently reprimanded him and then blessed him with more revelations. He then did the unthinkable and translated this depressed man, although in better humor when he got into the chariot, into heaven. I think that story was put there for us. When we have judged ourselves it is always good to get Jesus' opinion because His opinion is better and more balanced. Don't you think?

I don't see things the same way as your well-intentioned thoughts because you and others on this forum have the mind of Christ and I don't? Is that what you're saying? As I understand it, you don't agree with some others claiming to be overcomers. What does that mean?

I can read. And I know whether I have a relationship with Christ or not. I don't want to discuss my religious status in the presence of people claiming perfection. And I certainly have no intention of discussing that topic here.

Jesus' opinion is certainly a balanced one. That's why I'm trying to understand what He says.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Zyph, I believe you are a sincere Christian woman serving Jesus with all your heart, mind and soul. I have never doubted that. But I know you already knew that. I am confident and happy in our cyber friendship. And I realize you believe in the miracle of overcoming and are defending against the idea that we must be perfect BEFORE Jesus can save us or that we are perfect WHEN we're born again. I respect that. Thank you.

We differ on the timing of perfection. Correct me if I'm wrong. You, and many others, believe we are first born again (converted) and then the Holy Spirit begins empowering us from within to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan - and that this process is stretched out over the course of a lifetime, so that by the time we've been Christians for a long time we come to the place where we no longer choose to indulge sin either intentionally or unintentionally.

But what I'm saying, and the quotes I've posted clearly say, is that the Holy Spirit first impresses us from without to "lay aside" (1 Peter 2:1,2) our sinful defects of character and then the moment we are drawn to the place where we would rather die than to cling to a known sin we experience the miracle of conversion (rebirth). At that very moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man (1 Peter 1:23, Eph 4:24 and 1 John 3:9) and at that moment we are radically transformed. The mind of the new man comes complete with all the attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit - so that we are totally new in Christ (2 Cor 5:17, Rom 6 and Gal 5:16-24). We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. We are free from sin and we must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 2:20 and 1 Peter 4:1,2).

We may slip back into the mind of the old man and sin, but this does not mean that we were never converted in the first place. God does not give up on us, instead He pleads with us to receive the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin and gives God the legal right to restore us to the relationship our sin severed. We are saved so long as we do not refuse to repent.

Zyph, can you please explain how this view contradicts the Bible and the SOP. The quotes I've referenced above and throughout this thread, and the other threads like this one, make it plain to me that the timing of conversion is as I have described. And it is good news to me. I've provided quotes that plainly teach the when-then timing of conversion and it's miraculous nature. Please show me how these quotes mean something else. Thank you.

Zyph:
Is it helping to discuss what Jesus says in this kind of setting?

The honest answer to that, Greg, is "No". I'm sorry I reacted so negatively to what you wrote. I know you were being supportive and magnifying Jesus, and I thank you.

As I see it, during the process of conversion the Holy Spirit is outside impressing us to lay aside all defects of character as God gradually reveals them. And the moment all imperfections have been exposed, and if we choose Jesus instead of sin, we experience the miralce of rebirth.

At this point the Holy Spirit implants the sinless seed of the new man (which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit) and begins empowering us from within (seated upon the undivided throne of our soul temple) to imitate the holy example of Jesus.

The difference between our experience before and after the miracle of rebirth (conversion) is like night and day. Before we're born again the Spirit is outside impressing us to give up our sinful traits of character, whereas after we're born again the Spirit is inside empowering us to imitate the righteousness of Christ.

This night and day difference depends on where the Holy Spirit resides - either outside impressing or inside empowering. This is why conversion is so miraculous, such a radical transformation. One second we're sinners and the next we're saints. It all hinges upon whether or not we choose Jesus instead of sin once all our defects have been exposed. It's that simple.

If conversion were the result of anything other than the residence of the Holy Spirit then we would not be able to trace it's origin to the divine dealings of God. That is, if rebirth does not depend on the miraculous presence of the Holy Spirit then conversion is of human origin. But the Bible does not allow for this conclusion.

The miracle of rebirth is solely the work of God. The only thing we can do to experience the radical transformation of conversion is to surrender and submit to the drawing and wooing power of the Spirit. And then, once God brings us to the point where all our imperfections have been revealed and exposed, and we continue to choose Jesus, at that very moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man. Instantly we are a completely new creature in Christ. That's the miraculous power of rebirth.

At that precise moment, which is tailor made for each person, the Spirit discontinues impressing us from the outside and begins empowering us from the inside to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the sinless example of Jesus. This magical moment is nothing less than the awesome, miraculous transforming power of God exercised in the life of willing men and women who desire to live for Jesus with all their heart, mind, body and soul. It is the creative power of God at it's best.

The moment we experience the instantaneous miracle of conversion is the same moment we are born again a new man, a babe in Christ. We are born again morally complete. We are not, however, born again morally mature. Just as Jesus grew and developed and matured in the fruit and attributes of God, so too born again believers must imitate the example of Jesus by growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit and attributes of God.

Yes, there is no such thing as instant sanctification. Please don't confuse what I wrote about the miraculous moment of conversion with the life long process of maturing in the fruit and attributes of God - or what we call sanctification. Most people, however, are under the impression that sanctification is a life long process whereby God gradually exposes our defects of character until finally, after years of sinning and repenting and growing, we come to the point where we no longer choose to sin. This view of sanctification is totally unbiblical.

Until we understand the truth about conversion we cannot experience the miracle of rebirth. So long as we are under the impression that conversion involves a life of sinning and repenting as we gradually outgrow our defects of character the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within us or empower us to experience the victory verses and promises of God. We may leave off this and that sinful trait of character, but our victories are no different than the victories gained by unbelievers. Which, according to the Bible and the SOP, that's exactly the condition of the majority of professing Christians.

It is the truth that sets us free. I long for the day when the truth gains momentum and the sincere children of God begin experiencing the miracle of conversion - the joy imitating the sinless example of Jesus. In the meantime, I hope and pray for the successful proclamation of the truth as it is in Jesus, and that God's precious people will receive it warmly and victoriously.