Dora, thank you too for sharing your thoughts and drawing attention to the kind and courteous way our posts are posted. I too appreciate people who share their personal views in a loving manner. It's true that not everybody takes the time to be courteous. Greg is clearly a gentle Christian man, as many others are as well.

I'm sorry that some of my ideas have left you more confused than blessed. I wish it wasn't that way. I guess Paul had that problem too. Not that I think I'm on the same level as a Bible writer. Nearly everything I've shared comes from Ellen's chapter on Nicodemus in the DA. She employs the same language, which is where I got it from (i.e., the process and product of conversion). Perhaps rereading it will help verify what I'm trying to convey.

Are you also having a hard time agreeing with the idea that self must first be completely crucified before we can experiecne the miracle of rebirth? This diea can be summed up in the expression - We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

That is, just as the baby Jesus had to grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit - so too we do not begin this walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man until after our sinful self has been completely eliminated. For it is only then that we can begin as Christ began His walk. He started His walk without sin, and therefore, if Jesus is our example, then it stands to reason that we must also start our walk without sin.

Please read 1 Peter 2:1,2 and 2:20-22 and 4:1,2 to verify this observation. I'm not near a Bible right now so I can't post it here for you to read conveniently. If these passages do not teach what I have written above, please share with me what you think they mean.

Dear Mike,
Thank you for your response. As you will notice, I had just read 1Pet.2:1,2, and gave a small comment. I will read the other texts after a little while, also the chapter on Nicodemous. Be good to brush up on that! Thanks for mentioning it.

Yes, is the "timing" I guess you could say, that I don't understnd your thinking about.

Let me run for now, go and feed my six-toed Maine Coon cat, and my dog,Foxy, for it is almost dark!!
I will do some reading and get back to you, OK?

In reference to your texts. I think that I Peter 1:1-3 is a nice starting point for your thoughts. God elected us, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and spinkling of the blood of Christ (the sanctuary). Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy has begotten us (born again) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

For me this text means that everything in I Peter must start with the new birth and then we can grow into His grace and truth. We can partake of the milk of the Word of God. We can then go on to the solid food of the Word of God. Hebrews 5:12-6:3. And then we can continue to grow up until we are perfect in Him. Ephesians 4:1-16.

Dora, I missed your comments on 1 Peter 2:1,2. I can go back and read it, just let me know where it is. Thank you.

Greg, did I hear you say that 1 Peter teaches us that we are first born again and then we are empowered to overcome our defects of character? If so, then I must disagree. 1 Peter 1:14 refers to their life of sin as something that is in the past, and that they are now obedient, holy even as God is holy. Verses 15,16.

The idea that becoming perfect is an experience that involves gradually laying aside supposed unknown defects of character is something I don't find taught in the Bible. The promise in 1 Peter 1:15,16 is - Be holy. It clearly does not say "become" holy. From this promise I gather that we either are or we are not holy. It must therefore be the gift of God, which we receive the moment we completely crucify all our imperfections and experience the miracle of rebirth.

Since we are by promise "holy" it makes sense to me that this promise teaches that being holy is something that happens when we are no longer unholy. It would be true in the sense of justification, and especially true in the sense of sanctification. In order for God to promise - Be ye Holy -. it seems logical that it must be true in reality and not just in the legally declared or justified sense of the word.

And another point on that matter: I'm getting the idea that most people who talk about perfection are under the impression that it has to do with becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting. But I don't see this idea taught in the Bible. Paul wrote in Hebrews 6:1-3 that going on to "perfection" has to do with life in Christ after sin has been crucified. This text does not allow for the common
misconception that growth in perfection has something to do with overcoming our moral defects of character.

The Bible and SOP always refer to overcoming our defects of character as something that happens before we are born again. Peter makes this point so plain in 1 Peter 2:1,2 and 4:1,2 that I cannot see how it can be misunderstood or stated any clearer.

When the Bible talks about "perfection" I believe it's using the word in the same sense that Jesus developed a perfect character over the course of His lifetime. Obviously this cannot involve sin in any way. The growth in perfection that Jesus experienced had to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. It had nothing to do with sinning and repenting.

Since Jesus is our example of post-conversion growth in grace, it makes perfect sense to conclude that walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man has nothing to do with our past moral defects of character, what Peter and Paul both call our past life of sin, and everything to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

Is there anybody out there willing to comment on 1 Peter 2:1,2 in light of the thoughts I have shared on this passage?

Mike:
I followed your advice and reread the chapter on Nicodemus. I am going to try to list a few of the issues that I found in the chapter and would like you to review these thoughts and then comment on them. I also reread the chapter "The Sower Went Forth To Sow" and the chapter "First the Blade, then the Ear" in Christ's Object Lessons, and then the chapter "He Ordained Twelve." In DA. I don't want to make this too big of a study so I will narrow the material down to "Nicodemus." I will basically highlight the ideas that stood out to me.

1. "With others, he had been stirred by the teaching of Jesus. Though rich, learned, and honored, he had been strangely attracted by the humble Nazarene. The lessons that had fallen from the Saviour's lips had greatly impressed him, and he desired to learn more of these wonderful truths." DA 167. To me this section states that Nicodemus' heart was drawn to Jesus by the truths that were taught. Not converted but drawn.

2. "There were some (Nicodemus?) that feared to oppose One who was so evidently moved upon by the Spirit of God...Nicodemus shared these feelings." DA 167 Nicodemus was aware that the Holy Spirit was moving Jesus.

3."Since hearing Jesus, Nicodemus had anxiously studied the prophecies relating to the Messiah; and the more he searched, the stronger was his conviction that this was the One who was to come." Bible study, of the prophecies, had strengthened the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah. DA 168

4. "He was a witness of the scene when jesus drove out the buyers and the sellers; he beheld the wonderful manifestation of divine power; he saw the Saviour receiving the poor and healing the sick; he saw their looks of joy, and heard their words of praise; and he could not doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was the Sent of God." Miracles strengthened the conviction that Jesus was the Messiah. The Holy Spirit witnessing to him, the Scriptures witnessing to him, and the miracles were all convicting him of the truth. DA 168

5."His words were designed to express and to invite confidence; but they really expressed unbelief. he did not acknowledge jesus to be the Messiah, but only a teacher sent from God." Nicodemus under conviction but not ready for surrender. DA 168

6."In His infinite wisdom He saw before Him a seeker after truth. He knew the object of this visit, and with a desire to deepen the conviction already resting upon His listeners mind, He came directly to the point, saying solemnly, het kindly, "Verily verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3" According to God Nicodemus was a seeker after truth, but needed to deepen the conviction until He was born again. DA 168

7. "He said to Nicodemus, It is not theoretical knowledge you need so much as spiritual regeneration. (New birth). You need not to have your curiosity satisfied, but to have a new heart. You must receive a new life from above, before you can appreciate heavenly things. Until this change takes place, making all things new, it will result in no saving good for you to discuss with Me My authority or My mission." Jesus says that all change prior to a new birth is fruitless and of no effect. DA 171

8."Nicodemus had heard the preaching of John the Baptist...He himself had felt that there was a lack of spirituality among the Jews...He had hoped for a better state of things at the Messiah's coming. Het the heart-searching message of the Baptist had failed to work in him conviction of sin...He was a strict Pharisee and prided himself on his good works...He felt secure of the favor of God. He was startled at the thought of a kingdom too pure for him to see in his present state." DA 171 Nicodemus had many works but he was not converted. The very good works even clouded his understanding of need.

9. "He felt that he needed no change. Hence his surprise at the Saviour's words. He was irritated by their close application to himself. The pride of the Pharisee was struggling against the honest desire of the seeker after truth..." DA 171 Pride was struggling against the desire of truth. DA 455

10. "Like many other when cutting truth is brought home to the conscience, he revealed the fact that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. There is in him nothing that responds to spiritual things; for spiritual things are spiritually discerned." Nicodemus still seeking after truth but not changed into a new man yet.

11. "He was convinced that he was in the presence of the One whom John the Baptist had foretold." The Holy Spirit bringing things home to the heart.

12. "The fountain of the heart mut be purified before the streams can become pure....The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only the the effectual working of the Holy Spirit." No spiritual change can occur without the Holy Spirit drawing to that decision time.

13. DA 172 last paragraph describes the subtle changes brought about the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

14. "So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. (New Birth) Sinful thought are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the coutenance reflects the light of heaven...The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. The that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God." Power of the Holy Spirit woos and prepares the mind and the surrender of the soul to the Holy Spirit brings the change. Then more clear victories can take place.

15. "It is impossible for finete minds to comprehend the work of redemption. Its mystery exceeds human knowledge; yet he who passes from death to life realizes that it is a divine reality." Wisdom dictates that we not try too hard to identify every aspect of conversion for it is a mystery.

16. "While Jesus was speaking, some gleams of truth penetrated the rulers mind. The softening, subduing influence of the Holy Spirit impressed his heart. Het he did not fully understand the Saviour's words." DA 173 Nicodemus still struggling but needs more of the Holy Spirt's power.

17."Yet Christ spoke with such solemn dignity, and both look and tone expressed such earnest love, that Nicodemus was not offended as he realized his humiliating condition." DA 173 Still struggling but softening to truth.

18. "Nicodemus had read these scriptures with a clouded mind. He saw that the most rigid obedience to the mere letter of the law as applied to the outward life could entitle no man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the estimation of men, his life had been just and honorable; but in the presence of Christ he felt that his heart was unclean, and his life unholy." DA 174 Nicodemus becoming clear that he had a problem and that he needed help.

19. "Nicodemus was being drawn to Christ. As the Saviour explained to him concerning the new birth, he longed to have this change wrought in himself. By what means could it be accomplished? Jesus answered the unspoken question..." DA 174 The heart cry is going out "What must I do to be saved? Look and live is the answer.

20. "Nicodemus recieved the lesson." DA 175 He chose to receive Jesus and converted.

21. "He searched the Scriptures in a new way,(he was converted) not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit." DA 175 Now that he was converted he could begin to grow just like a plant or just like a child.

22. "Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. And we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God." All good things come from God alone.

23. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the corss in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps 40:8" DA 176

24. "Nicodemus hid the tuth in his heart, and for three years there was little apparent fruit." DA 176 Little visible fruit but the plant of faith had found good soil and was accomplishing God's purposes. Nicodemus was converted.

25. "But Jesus was acquainted with the soil (see COL 33-69) into which He cast the seed. The words spoken at night to one listener in the lonely mountain were not lost. For a time Nicodemus did not publicly acknowledge Christ, but he watched His life, and pondered His teachings. In the Sanhedrin council he repetedly thwarted the schemes of the priest to destroy Him. When at last Jesus was lifted up on the cross, Nicodemus remembered the teaching upon Olivet...The light from that secret interview illumined the corss upon Calvary, and Nicodemus saw in Jesus the world's Redeemer." DA 176-177 The babe was growing and developing in that three year period.

26. DA 177 Nicodemus producing abundant harvest of fruit at just the time the disciples needed it most.

27. DA 775-776 Describe Nicodemus final experience and confirmation of faith.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this story.

Greg, thank you so much for a systematic and uplifting study.

Greg, thank you for that awesome summary and running commentary. I agree with everything you wrote except one thing. I believe Nicodemus was converted at the cross, when he finally publicly acknowledged Jesus as his personal Saviour.

During those 3 three years leading up to the cross, I believe he was responding to the wooing power of the influence of the Spirit, but that he did not actually experience the miracle of rebirth until the moment he stepped forward and declared Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

I liked what you wrote about good works before conversion. Nicodemus was full of good works. So that by the time he was converted he had very few changes to make. But from God's point of view the difference between his good works before and after conversion was like night and day. Now that he was converted his outward acts of behaviour, though in many ways were no different from a human point of view, could be felt within his heart with all the difference in the world.

If we are only half converted, or even 99% converted we are still unconverted. We are not converted until we are completely free of our defects of character. Which is why Ellen White describes conversion as a process and a product. During the process we are responding to the influence of the Spirit to lay aside our sinful traits of character, but we are not converted until the moment we completely crucify self and receive the gift or product of conversion - the sinless seed of the new man.

We may be converted on this and that defect, but until we are completely converted on all our defects of character we are not truly converted. I don't believe we are converted in bits and pieces. We are "convicted" little by little as God gradually exposes our imperfections, but we are not actually "converted" until He brings us to the point of total surrender and submission.

Whatever sin we lay aside as we respond to the wooing power of the influence of the Spirit of God, and before we're completely converted, is not of the same origin as when we are fully set free of all our defects and have been born again. The power to live without sin after we have been born again is the direct result of the indwelling
power of God, and not the indirect influence of God like it is during the process of conversion before we're born again.

Are we saved should we die before we complete the process of conversion? That's up to God. No doubt He will base His decision at least partly on the choices we would have made had not death prematurely claimed our life. If we were in the habit of cooperating with the influence of God to lay aside our defects of character, but died before He could finish exposing our defects and influencing us to completely crucify self, then we can be sure God will save us in the first resurrection.

Mike, you wrote: "If we were in the habit of cooperating with the influence of God to lay aside our defects of character, but died before He could finish exposing our defects and influencing us to completely crucify self, then we can be sure God will save us in the first resurrection."

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Mar 4:28
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear."

the way i interpret the above verse is:

The wooing of the Holy Spirit waters a planted seed and the seed dies and springs forth the blade, this equals the new birth.....then the growth begins and matures to the "full corn in the ear." A seed is dead until planted and watered then it brings forth, new life, blossoms and brings forth fruit. the beginning of our christian experience i see is the New Birth and God starts the re - creation of the new life..blade [baby christian] then the ear [christian growth [walk]] and full ear [mature, fit for Christ's Kingdom] completed product. Ready for translation.

God will have a people that are "full corn in the ear", they will vindicate God's character. They will prove that Satan's lies against the "Rulers of Heaven" are untrue.

I am asking a question of Mike, however, it is more of a thought question which means I am not necessarily expecting a written answer to this question. However, if you choose to do so, it will help me to understand where you are coming from.

1 - Based on your understanding of conversion, are you converted?

2 - If you are converted, are you completely free of your defects of character?

3 - Would those who know you best, for example, your wife, Judy, testify that you are completely free of your defects of character?

Remember, I said you don't need to answer the above questions. In fact, you don't even need to respond to this or any other post.

quote:

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Mike said:
If we were in the habit of cooperating with the influence of God to lay aside our defects of character, but died before He could finish exposing our defects and influencing us to completely crucify self, then we can be sure God will save us in the first resurrection.

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Are you, therefore, saying Mike that there will be unconverted people rising back to life and going to heaven with Jesus at the first resurrection?