Charlene, I didn't mean to imply that we can lay aside unknown defects of character. I'm sorry. What I meant to convey is that since Jesus did not possess unknown defects of character, it makes sense to me that born again believers do not have them either. Which means they were laid aside or crucified before the person experienced the miracle of conversion. Hence the expression - We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

Yes, I believe the process of conversion ends the moment God influences us to crucify our last moral defect of character. And I believe the product of conversion is rebirth, at which point we receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man. And then the process of sanctification begins - which is the point at which Jesus began. This process, which does not involve sinning and repenting, will continue throughout eternity.

We may slip in and out of sin during the process of sanctification, but these failures are not part of the process of sanctification, rather they are part of the process of justification, which is something we must obtain and maintain through the gift of repentance and forgiveness. It is a mistake to confuse the two processes. Even though they are closely related (like the two oars of a row boat) they are, nonetheless, separate and distinct functions of the plan of salvation.

When do we don the robe of Christ's justifying righteousness? The very moment we begin cooperating with the influence of the Holy Spirit to lay aside our defects of character. We are saved and justified at that very moment providing we do not resist progressing at God's pace for us. So long as we do not refuse to lay aside sin when God reveals it we are saved and justified.

We are saved and justified even though we may still have unknown defects which God in His mercy has not yet revealed. We are not born again or converted at this point, but fortunately salvation has nothing to do with whether or not we have completed the process of conversion. Our salvation is based solely on what Jesus did for us on the cross.

As long as we are cooperating with God and keeping pace as He reveals our defects we are saved and justified. But if we refuse to keep pace or cling to some pet sin we are no longer saved or justified. Jesus cannot justify saving someone who refuses to allow God to purify them and influence or empower them to live without sin.

Even in this situation our salvation does not depend on what God is able to empower us to do or not to do, but rather it is the evidence that God has saved us and is saving us. Jesus is the root of our salvation, laying aside sin and maturing in the righteous attributes of God are the fruits of our slavation. Although we cannot work our way to heaven, not one of us will inherit the kingdom of God if we do not allow heaven to work its way in us.

Do you see what I mean?

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Hello Mike & Charlene

I would be curious to hear your comments re the following text, in relatin to our topic here of Christian perfection:

"But whoso kepeth His Word, in him verily is the LOVE of God perfected; thereby we KNOW that we are IN HIM." (1 Jo.2;5).

Quote by Mike

"Yes, I believe the process of conversion ends the moment God influences us to crucify our last moral defect of character."

When does this happen in the life of a believer?

David, my take on 1 John 2:5 in the context of character perfection is seen from the example of Jesus - who began perfect and who then also became perfect. The "love of God" does not involve sin, therefore, the perfecting of God's love in us must involve maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - the same as it was with Jesus as He perfected the love of God as He grew from childhood to manhood.

Romans
13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

John
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

When does a person experience rebirth? The moment he consents to cooperate with the influence of God to crucify the last moral defect of character revealed by the Holy Spirit. Is that what you believe?

posted by Mike:

When does a person experience rebirth? The moment he consents to cooperate with the influence of God to crucify the last moral defect of character revealed by the Holy Spirit. Is that what you believe?
*********************
Sorry Mike, but this is a strange saying to me! Do you really mean to say that the new birth takes place when all moral defects have been crucified???!!!

[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

AB, yes I do. And the following passages lead me to this conclusion:

ROMANS
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 CORINTHIANS
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

GALATIANS
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

PHILIPPIANS
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

HEBREWS
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 PETER
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 PETER
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 JOHN
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A literal reading of these passages make it very clear that a born again believer begins at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. Do you see what I mean?

Mike,

A literal reading of some of these texts, is not healthy in certain cases.

If, all moral defects have to be eliminated first, before conversion begins; what then do we need Jesus for, and what is the sense of conversion?

Show me a "converted man" that is "perfect," and I will have another story for you.

Dear Guys and Girls,
I am probably as way off as can be as to how you are thinking. But, you know that I teach young people, and I think "simple" and pretty much on a level with them, although I am a Grandmother.

We had a SS lesson last month about perfection. We talked about Mark 4:28, 29. The question is asked, "when is the plant perfect?" The question is not "when it is ready for harvest?" Isn't it perfect at all stages, when it is only a green shoot from the ground, when it is growing, and when it begins to bloom, then forms whatever the "fruit" it is supposed to form? Today, I was cleaning dead leaves and grass from my pansy bed, and found a small yellow bud. It wasn't complete, it hadn't flowered, but it sure looked "perfect" to me.
Seems to me, it is just so with the Christian. My husband has been away from church for so many years he had forgotten almost all he knew. I consider him a "baby" in the Bible truths, and it is OK for him to be on "milk and pablum" now, just so as he doesn't stay on it forever! But...he won't!! For he is studying his SS lesson every day, reading the SOP, and going where "prayer is wont to be made." So, he is WILLING to take in food, and water, and he even shares what he knows to share at this time. So, he IS perfect in the state he is in, RIGHT? Seems so to me.

I was told a story last night, don't know if I can tell it just right, but it goes something like this:

Back in the early 1800s there was a plantation owner, who had several slaves who worked for him.
There was one older man named Zeke, who did outstanding work all the time. He could always be depended on, always did his work exactly as told, and never complained. In fact, one could often hear him singing praises to his Lord while he worked.

The owner of the plantation was curious. He watched Zeke, and he noticed that he seemed to have a peace that he would like to find. One day he asked the old man, "How can I have the peace of mind you seem to have? How can I be content in all circumstances, without anger and worry?"

Old Zeke said, "I'll tell you, but, you will have to be willing to come with me to the pig pen and pray." That sounded crazy to the owner, so he said, "No, Zeke, I can't do that." But a few days later, he was still thinking on it, so he asked zeke the same question, "How can I have the peace of mind you seem to have?" and, he got the same answer, "Sir, you will have to be willing to come to the pig pen and pray."

A few days later, many things occurred to worry and upset the plantation owner, so, he felt he just had to have some relief. He went back to Zeke, and said, "OK, I am willing, let's go." then, Zeke said, "But, Sir, I didn't say you had to go, I just said you had to be willing."

I know in my life, I often haven't "been willing,"
and it isn't until you are willing to "go to the pig pen," so to speak, if that is what it takes, that we are growing, and can continue to grow until we are ready for "harvest," but, only God knows when the grain is ready, that part is not for us to be concerned about.

The seed-to-blossom parable applies to Jesus too. As a baby He was perfect, and as His life unfolded, like a plant, He also became perfect. This parable does not illustrate a person gradually out growing their moral defects of character. We cannot assume, in light of the example of Jesus, that the unfolded part of the growing plant symbolizes unknown and unconquered moral imperfections. The perfection in the plant unfolds as it matures. It has nothing to do with sin.

Why do we need Jesus if conversion and rebirth involves first crucifying our moral defects of character? Because we cannot do it without Him! How can we be born again if self does not first die?

Is there anyone perfect at conversion and rebirth? Yes! Jesus was, and so is everyone else who crucifies self. It's just like the plant parable illustrates - perfect at each step as the plant's perfection unfolds, just like the baby Jesus who matured from childhood to manhood.

Why can't we take the Bible promises literally? just the way they read? Please explain.

Ya. What Dora said.