1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

The trend these days seems to favor the idea that sinning and repenting is normal. Have we become soft on sin? The context of the quotes above is love, and yet they are in no way soft on sin. Just the opposite is true.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."

"Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Question:
1. Are we soft on sin?
2. Do we tolerate sin?

How long can we ignore or twist the plain promises of God and expect to fulfill the gospel commission? The idea that sin and salvation cohabitate is gaining momentum. More and more people are succumbing to the opinion that it takes God a lifetime to reveal unknown moral defects of character.

Not only does this theory implicate God, it also weakens the faith of God's struggling children. Nothing is more calculated to perpetuate sin than the notion that certain imperfections will not be discovered and overcome until after years of sinning ignorantly.

Please, read the following promises and ask yourself - Can I really take God at His word? or must I twist these promises to accommodate a life of sinning and repenting?

JOHN
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JOHN
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

ROMANS
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1 CORINTHIANS
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

GALATIANS
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

EPHESIANS
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

PHILIPPIANS
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

HEBREWS
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 PETER
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

1 PETER
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 PETER
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

JUDE
1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

I am beginning to realize that most of the MSDAOL members are politely ignoring my posts on this topic. I suspect you believe you have already made it clear that my understanding of salvation is unbiblical, and that there is nothing else you can do to help me.

But politely ignoring me is not helpful. I have shared many valid points which I do not believe have been adequately addressed. Please, would you folks answer the following questions with quotes and comments:

1. Jesus began perfect and became perfect, why isn't also true that born again believers begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth?

2. Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say that we gradually out grow our unknown moral defects of character after we are converted and born again?

3. Why can't we take promises like Rom 6:6 and 2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 5:16 and 1 John 3:9 literally? Do these kinds of promises pertain to all sin or only to known sin?

4. When is 1 Cor 10:13 a reality regarding all sin - before or after we're born again?

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Brother Mike, You asked:

quote:

---

Jesus began perfect and became perfect, why isn't also true that born again believers begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth?

---

Jesus is the Saviour of the World. He didn't know nothing about sin inside of himself. You are right! - He began perfect and became perfect.

But what about us? We are sinners. Bible says it very clearly:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and truth is not in us." 1.John 1:8

We are perfect only in Christ. Holy living does not make us sinless. Sanctification doesn't change our sinful nature, but just our character. We are and will always be sinners saved by grace, not and never by imparted righteousness of Christ (because of our sinful nature, which Jesus didn't never have).

Aksel, yes and amen, we are saved based on what Jesus did for us on the cross - not what He does in us on earth.

You quoted 1 John 1:8 to prove that we cannot completely overcome our sinful flesh nature. This insight creates a few questions I hope you can find the time to address:

1. Why do you think John is talking about sinful flesh nature in 1 John 1:8 instead of sin as the "transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

2. Can sinful flesh nature commit sin? Does God hold us accountable for the unholy cravings communicated by our sinful flesh nature?

3. If we are not held accountable for the unholy communications generated by our fallen flesh nature, then why do we insist Jesus did not possess sinful flesh? Rom 8:3 and Heb 2:14-18.

4. How does your understanding of 1 John 1:8 compare with the first post on this thread?

5. Can you please answer the other questions in the third post on this thread?

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Pastor Mike, you've got too many questions on the go for one thing.
I think you're saying that as soon as we understand the gospel and accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour we should be perfect. Is this correct? If you feel that way, you should read Hebrews 11 and then consider all the sinning they did after they were converted. John says we should not sin but if we do we have an advocate. I'm not soft on sin, but at the same time, people need to realize that our salvation is secure in Christ's merits, not ours. Too many people give up on God before they start because we set the standard so high and then make them feel they are lost if they don't attain it on the first day out.

Dan, you make a valid point about the merits of Jesus and our salvation status. This thread is a spin off from the other threads dealing with perfection.