Jesus says "Understand the book of Daniel:" Mat.24:15

How do we do this; when we cannot even agree on what salvation is; or, how one is saved?

What is salvation?

Does anyone know?

Is "salvation" the same thing for everyone?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Fortunately, or should I say unfortunately, most people do agree on what salvation is all about. As I read the Bible and the SOP, and as I have shared so many times on so many other similar threads throughout MSDAOL, I believe we are saved the moment we accept we Jesus as our personal Saviour.

As we continue in relationship with Jesus, developing at God's pace for us, overcoming our defects of character as God reveals them, and when we finally crucify self with all it's imperfections - then we experience the miracle of rebirth, and receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the attributes of God and all the fruits of the Spirit.

We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. Like the baby Jesus we grow in grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory, and grace for grace. We mature in the fruits of the Spirit as we grow from childhood to manhood. We no longer serve sin. We are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. We live the life of Jesus.

If we slip back into sin, the Holy Spirit is quick to influence us to accept the gift of repentance, which when received it empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives Jesus the legal right to pardon our sin, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and to restore the relationship our sin severed. Then the Holy spirit resumes empowering us from within, seated upon the throne of our soul temple, to live without sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

I realize that most people do not agree with the timing between the death of self and rebirth described above - but I also believe this disagreement is one of the many reasons why church members are failing to experience the promises of God and why Jesus hasn't returned yet.

How can we "be saved," if we have to "stay saved;" and exactly how does our understanding of "salvation," or "being saved," effect our understanding of the book of Daniel & it's partner, The Revelation?

Also, Christians are to experience the Word, "experientially;" so how does our misunderstanding of "salvation," and "being saved," affect the Bible's stated goals, for our "experience" in the Word, as contained in Daniel 11:32 for instance, or with Daniel 9:24-27?

Who in the church has a correct understanding of what our salvation experience really should be, according to this text in Daniel?

There is lots of evidence on various forums, that we ARE NOT AGREED on what "salvation," or "being saved" is, and we need to face this reality.

There is a reason that Daniel 11:32 does not ocurr with many today in the church.

What could it be?

Mike, you said that the Holy Spirit straightens us around when we "slip into sin," so are you saying that at that point of "slipping," we are not saved?

Watch the sparks fly when you say such things.

This kind of misinformation, and disagreement is bound to affect our proper understanding of the apocolyptic books of the Bible; especially Daniel and Revelation.

It is more important than what most think it is to understand this vital point.

Experiential Bible study is essential for Daniel.

But, what is, or should this "experience" from the book of Daniel really be?

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 11
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

As I see it, the only way these prophecies can be fulfilled by God's people is if they believe the truth about salvation and sanctification. For it is the truth that makes us free from the burden of sin.

But so long as most of God's remnant people believe God does not give them victory over their so-called unknown moral imperfections until after a lifetime of sinning ignorantly, so long as they believe this lie they will fail to fulfill the promises and prophecies of perfection.

Salvation is for today. Is it not something reserved for tomorrow. The promises of perfection of character are there to claim now. But most people believe that character perfection is the work of a lifetime, after years of gradually becoming less and less sinful until God finally exposes our last sin and then, and not until then, can we hope to experience God's promises of perfection.

From what I've studied, it is this lie that is preventing the remnant church of God from fulfilling their mission and commission as lightbears to the world.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

"Mike, you said that the Holy Spirit straightens us around when we "slip into sin," so are you saying that at that point of "slipping," we are not saved?"

If we unintentionally slip into a known sin and respond immediately to the influence of the Holy Spirit, who immediately begins impressing us to accept the gift of repentance, and we confess and forsake our sin unto the honor and glory of God, we are in a saved state.

However, if we intentionally march into a known sin and indulge some unholy passion and refuse to accept the gift of repentance and refuse to confess and forsake our sin, we are in an unsaved state.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we "sin wilfully [and] fall away," that is, if we completely turn our back on God, like Lucifer and King Saul and Judas did, it is unlikely we will return to Jesus. And if we refuse to return to Jesus we are in an unsaved state. Refusing to return to Jesus is the unpardonable sin.

Most people do not completely "fall away" when they "sin wilfully." Most of us eventually sense our need for repentance within a short time and end up confessing and forsaking our sin. But so long as we continue to believe a lie about salvation and sanctification we shall continue to experience the fruits of that lie - i.e., sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting.

So then; are we saved, like, every day, and multiple times each day?

Or, should I ask; How many of us would go to heaven, if we only had one chance at it?

How does the salvation experience as depicted in Daniel, answer such questions?

"So then; are we saved, like, every day, and multiple times each day?"

Lest we be accused of "once saved, always saved" on the one hand, and denying the "blessed assurance" on the other hand, we have to be careful to stay within the boundaries of truth. Whether or not we are saved is in reality based on the choices we make before we die or are numbered and sealed. To figure it out on a minute by minute basis is possible in theory, but it's probably not healthy to run around doing it. If we are right with Jesus now, then we may know with assurance we are saved now.

"Or, should I ask; How many of us would go to heaven, if we only had one chance at it?"

Our "one chance" begins at birth and ends at death. What we do about and with Jesus in between those times will determine whether or not He can save us when He returns. Making Jesus our priority is the best we can do.

"How does the salvation experience as depicted in Daniel, answer such questions?"

Daniel made the Lord his first priority, as such he benfited in all the ways that indicate he was saved. That is, he had victory over sin and he matured in the fruits of the Spirit.

Sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting - never really ever to get the victory over this or that defect of character is no indication that a person is saved. Saved from what? Certainly not sin! The person who finds himself repeatedly in and out of the same sin, day after day, month after month, is missing something - a vital connection to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

What do the prophecies of perfection teach us about salvation?