Dear Forum readers.

As I have presented lengthy posts of my “ideas” and may be made some confusion, I would like to post this conclusion for an easier reading to grasp and understand what I have presented. Please feel free to comment on it and better you have a good and solid Scriptural basic.

In His love

James S.

THE BASIC CONCEPT OF SALVATION ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

1. God didn’t create sinful men, and He is not the source of sin.
2. God create men in His image and after His likeness that means having the same character as He is, with love agape (love that seeks no self in it) in their hearts.
3. Sin enters the world through Adam, since he chose to live for self instead to live for God, to follow his own desire instead the will of God.
4. Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), a state of being where men’s character after the fall comes short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is a state of human heart that is absence from the “agape love” of God, substituted with the love for self since Adam’s fall.
5. Sin is also a transgression to the law of God; all deeds that break His commands since it came in effect.
6. Adam’s descendants is not responsible for the nature they were born with, because SIN entered the world through Adam multiplication and with this SIN came along the death as the wages of SIN.
7. Men didn’t deserve the death for the SIN they didn’t do (Adam’s sin), for this God must take an action to prove himself a just and righteous God, loving and merciful.
8. He did it by sending His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to redeem men from SIN and it wages.
9. Christ death on the cross was an act of God that proved His great love and mercy and that He is a just and a righteous God that redeemed us from the sin which is not ours and it wages we didn’t deserve.
10. With this action, men got their life back as they were justified from the SIN they didn’t do through Christ redemption.
11. Justification that brings life to all men was God’s free gift in Jesus Christ, an objective salvation based on Christ imputed righteousness.
12. Justification that allow men to enter heaven and live there is God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ, a subjective salvation that is based on Christ imparted righteousness for those who has faith in him and that lives according to the Spirit.
13. Before the cross, men was lead by God’s law to introduce the SIN in them that might legally judge them for their sin and condemn them with death, thus arising the need for a Redeemer and Savior. Christ was pictured as a symbol in the sin offerings according to the Leviticus law.
14. At the cross, the ministry of the law came to an end and no longer binds upon Christ believers because it missions were accomplished.
15. Since the cross, after the redemption has taken place, Christ has reconciled men to God in His body. Those who believe and live by faith will remain in Him and He in them.
16. Men must live by faith and according to the Spirit for a change of character that will released them from the power of SIN, because even Christ has saved them and redeemed their SIN but it didn’t change their character as it will be the work of the Spirit.
17. Men’s obligation since the cross is the same as Adam’s obligation in Eden, which is to live for God and not for self. They face the same choice as Adam and Eve once have faced in Eden, a choice between to serve God or to serve their self, a choice between to stay with God’s will or to live in their own will. They were obliged to the same law as Adam was, to love their God and their fellow men.
18. When there is no law there is no transgression and sin is not imputed, this was the period of time since the fall till Moses. Nevertheless death reigned in the world because SIN was passed to men through Adam’s multiplication and death through SIN, because all men has sinned. A SIN that was in their nature, a character that falls short of the glory of God.
19. Since Moses till John, the law was in effect. It was made legally in order to judge men and legally condemn them for their sin.
20. After the cross, the law was no longer in effect, because Christ has justified all men with his death on the cross. If the law still exist, it will forever judges and condemns men with the curse of the law for their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfil it demands that was based on the principle of love that seeks no self. Since men’s fallen nature has the character of love for self, they would and could never be justified by the law and so remain under it condemnation. This will make Christ death meaningless, as he has justified all men once and for all, a justification that gives them a second life. The law condemnation and Christ justification cannot be in effect at the same time, one of it must go.
21. There must be no more laws that might legally judges and condemns men for their fallen nature of self-love character and for the deeds they made based on it. Otherwise all will be under the curse of the law and no one will live because no one could continually keep and obey the law and fulfils it demands. If the law is still in effect, Christ will die for nothing.
22. The only thing that left is men’s obligation to live for God and remain in Christ by faith. The Spirit then will work in those who live by faith to do “the willing and the doing of God”. If he remains in Christ by faith, he will have a change of character. The love of God imparted by the Spirit will be generated in his heart and replace the love for self. Now he is able to love his fellow men, now he has the character of heavenly beings, now he is FIT for heaven.
23. The standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven is no longer the legal law of God but His own character. Only those who has His love in their heart will enter heaven, will be FIT for heaven and welcome to live there.
24. And the only means to have this love is through a life led by the Spirit for those who has faith in Christ, because this “love” is fruit of the Spirit.
25. At the end, at the Day of Judgment, all men will be judge by their deeds based on God’s character “love that seeks no self”. Those who lived by faith and have the deeds of the Spirit will be justified by their faith, those who has not the law and never hear the Gospel will be judged by their deeds and those who were under the law will be judged by the law (in the latter case, who would be justified?).

Conclusions:
1. Christ imputed righteousness is our objective salvation, a free gift, and our ticket to heaven.
2. Christ imparted righteousness is our subjective salvation, the work of the Spirit in those who live by faith, our fitness for heaven.
3. Having both we will be justified by faith and passed God’s judgment.

The law, the Ten commandments, the Sabbath law etc was ended 2000 years ago and has no place in faith relationship with God. It will only judge and condemn men for their failure in continually keeping it and fulfil it demand. It will only make void the great sacrifice Christ has made on the cross that justifies all men and gives their life back. Also what is most important, making the law as an obedience to keep will only shows our unbelief in the works of the Spirit. Since the cross the ministry to the law ended and substituted with the ministry of the Spirit, it is the Spirit responsibility to make us have the “heaven character” in our heart if we trust him and gives our self under his leading. The Spirit cannot empower us to keep and obey the law because it is not His desire but our desire to live righteously and since our desires is based on self-love, all what we did is ‘evil” in God’s eye (all our righteousness is as filthy rags). What the Spirit desired is to release us from the power of sin in us, to release us from the desire of the flesh, to release us from our self-love character by imparting the love of God in our heart.

If through the Spirit we will have the love of God that was imparted in our hearts and enabling us to love one another, why should there be any law to keep and obey? Our character and deeds already fulfil the law demands in the letter and in the spirit even there is no law. The doctrine of to keep the law with faith in Christ is just the same as telling some one to drive a car and at the same time asking him to walk on the road. How could it be possible? Either you drive the car or walk on the road; it could not be done together.

Since the law was given to lead people to Christ by exposing the SIN in men and death as it rewards, once in Christ by faith the law comes to an end in it functions as a guide or school master to be continued with a life in faith according to the Spirit. In Christ, the law is behind and walking forward in the new road to heaven under the Spirit guidance.

May you all see the truth in this presentation with a humble heart under the Spirit guidance.

In His love

James S.

James:Well, I will make one more attempt. Since you have a Dutch surname, I'll try Dutch first.

Vriend James,
Ik ben bang dat jouw Engels voor mij te verwarrend is om je te beantwoorden of opmerkingen te geven. Je spreekt jezelf constant tegen. Anderen op dit forum begrijpen er ook weinig meer van. Misschien is het beter als je jouw ideeën vertelt aan een groep mensen die jouw taal wel kunnen spreken.

Now English:

Friend John: I am afraid your English is much too confusing for me to answer this or future remarks. You contradict yourself constantly. It certainly has left others on this forum quite confused too. Perhaps you should consider giving your ideas to a group in your native language.

Since no one comment, I believe that all have seen the truth in it. God bless you!

In His love

James S.

James: No one answers because everyone is tired of trying to decode your jumbled theology, not because they agree with you!
You reject God's most recent messenger, reject the 10 commandments, repeat "Just believe!".
Your English is too limited to explain your ideas about the Truth of the Gospel.
I repeat:
Nadat ik de honderden posts die je op dit forum heb geplaatst heb gelezen en nadat ik heb gezien dat slechts een persoon het deels met je eens is over wat hij denkt dat je probeert te zeggen, moet ik zeggen dat ik dit spelletje niet meespeel. Als je niet de moeite neemt om naar ze te luisteren, of nog belangrijker de dingen die Mrs White duidelijk heeft gezegd of om zonder oogkappen de bijbel te lezen, dan kan ik je zeker niet helpen. Ik zal voor je blijven bidden, maar ik zal geen onderdeel worden van je publiek. Het zou goed voor je zijn om te leren luisteren naar anderen en te begrijpen dat je Engels niet zo gevorderd is als je denkt. Ik denk dat dit liefde in. Dit is mijn laatste post naar jou.

James,

Do you really think that God has done away with His Sabbath. Are you forgetting that the last trials on this earth will be over our faithfulness and loyalty to our God/Creator or our loyalty to satan/destroyer? Do you know that this test involves the Sabbath. If it was done away with 2000 years ago, and has nothing to do with our faith relationship.....why is it important in the final test for God's people? This does not make any sense.

Are you aquainted with the "Three Angels Messages" of Rev. 14? Are you aware that the Seventh day Adventist people have been called to give this message and bring the people of God, around the world, the message of true Sabbath Keeping and pointing out to them that Satan has a counterfeit Sabbath that is false?

My dear James.......Please do some searching to get the right handle on this truth....Your salvation depends on it. Following Jesus is ACTIVE....a conscious choice....a deliberate action of love, obedience is a responce to God's love. Obedience to all His commands, and they are not grievious.

Remember:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[ June 19, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

The Last Deception of Satan

Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- Letter 12, 1890.

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.-- Letter 40, 1890. {1SM 48.4}

James, I have tried to agree with you concerning the relationship between faith and works (law and grace), but you're summary above gives the impression that you believe living in harmony with the law is no longer necesary this side of the cross.

If you believe this way, then we are not in agreement. But if you don't believe this way, then please seek advice from an English speaking person who can help you convey your thoughts accurately.

We are not condemned to death based on Adam's sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, we inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. And because we are conceived and born with a sinful flesh nature we automatically sin. We are condemned and guilty based on our own commission of sin.

And neither do we inherit salvation. We must choose Jesus to be saved. Salvation is by choice, not by birth. Condemnation is by choice, not by birth. Please consider these truths.

Mike.

As usual you always give something to think about, I appreciate that.

Quote.
James, I have tried to agree with you concerning the relationship between faith and works (law and grace), but you're summary above gives the impression that you believe living in harmony with the law is no longer necesary this side of the cross
Unquote.

Please don’t hesitate to take a conclusion.
I never say or mean that living in harmony with the law is no longer necessary this side of the cross. On the contrary I repeat it many times that a believer must have the principle of the law that is “love – agape (love that seeks no self in it)”, which is the principle of the kingdom of God in his heart to be FIT for heaven. When a believer has this “love” he is able to love his fellow men and live in harmony with the law since love is the fulfillment of the law.

Since this “love” is ‘fruit of the Spirit”, a character that we could not generate from within our self but solely done by the Spirit, I didn’t see any needs for the Ten Commandments to stand as a legal law that required my obedience, because if I have the fruit of the Spirit I already fulfilled the law demands which I could never satisfy through obedience.

Conclusion: Living in harmony with the principle of the law (love) is my fitness for heaven, but it didn’t need the letter of the law as a legal law that requires my obedience and put me under it authority, judgment and condemnation. Christ has set me free from it in order I might live by the Spirit.

Quote.
If you believe this way, then we are not in agreement. But if you don't believe this way, then please seek advice from an English speaking person who can help you convey your thoughts accurately
Unquote.

I ask your help to clarify my thoughts as you had already done.

Quote.
We are not condemned to death based on Adam's sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, we inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. And because we are conceived and born with a sinful flesh nature we automatically sin. We are condemned and guilty based on our own commission of sin.

And neither do we inherit salvation. We must choose Jesus to be saved. Salvation is by choice, not by birth. Condemnation is by choice, not by birth. Please consider these truths.
Unquote.

I think because we are conceived and born with a sinful flesh nature we automatically sin, God must redeemed us from this SIN because it is not our fault to have this nature as it was Adam’s guilt that we born in this condition. God had created Adam in his image after his likeness, but we were born in this sinful flesh nature, so he must fix this problem. The sins we committed was rooted to our sinful flesh nature, the SIN that Paul said was the SIN in the flesh and dominate us so that whatever we do is not “good” enough to satisfy the demands of God holy law.

If men were guilty based on their own commission of sin, then when Christ redeemed all men from their sins, those who never hear about him, who never know about the Scripture, who has not the law, all will go to heaven no matter they were killers or a thief or living for the flesh their whole life. Think about it!

If salvation was based on a choice in choosing Jesus, all men who lives according to the principle of heaven but never hear about Jesus will die eternally (read Romans 2: ), and if condemnation is by choice and not by birth then all who choose to be saved but never hear the gospel will die eternally even though their life is in accordance with the principle of heaven. Think about it!

Christ redemption is universal, it covers all men from all ages no matter he ever hear the gospel or not or he has the law or not. Your reasoning only limited salvation to they who has the knowledge of the Scripture or who know Jesus, and I believe it is not correct. Please advice me if I’m wrong.

In His love

James S.

The following passage teaches that God will judge people according to the light they lived up to:

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Also, when Joshua entered the Promised Land he was instructed to wipe out everyone. The Canaanites had closed their probation as a race of people so that no one born into that race could hope for salvation. It will be that way for people living at the end of time too.

We are neither saved or lost based on inheritance. Salvation and damnation is the result of our own choosing. We are not automatically saved or lost based solely on what Adam or Jesus did.

We inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. We are guitly and condemned based on the sins we ourselves commit. Neither are we guilty simply because we possess a nature that clamors for sin. This clamoring is not a sin for which we are held accountable. This clamoring is only a temptation. When we are born again and partake of the divine nature we are empowered to resist the clamorings of our sinful flesh nature.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus does not automatically save everybody. We must accept Jesus as our personal Saviour in order to benefit from His work of salvation. In the case of people who never learn about Jesus and His salvation, God will determine their eternal destiny based on the life they would have lived if they had heard the gospel.

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the relationship between faith and works, law and grace. Please make it just as clear each time you address the subject and fewer people will misundersatnd you.

Mike.

It is really good to have this conversation with you as you give reasonable answers for to think about.

Quote.
We are neither saved or lost based on inheritance. Salvation and damnation is the result of our own choosing. We are not automatically saved or lost based solely on what Adam or Jesus did.
Unquote.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus does not automatically save everybody.

Please give me a verse from the Scripture to support your idea as Romans 2:12-16 is not saying about this.

I think your idea is not right according to the gospel of Christ and here are the verses that are against it.

Titus 2:11 – “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

Romans 5:23,24 – “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Salvation (a second life after death) was the result of Christ redemption, if no one sins all will go to heaven. But this salvation is Christ objective salvation that justify all men by the grace of God, our ticket to heaven but not our fitness for heaven.

Damnation to death we inherit from Adam according to the verses below.

Romans 5:12-19

12Therefore, JUST AS SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ONE MAN, AND DEATH THROUGH SIN, AND IN THIS WAY DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: THE JUDGMENT FOLLOWED ONE SIN AND BROUGHT CONDEMNATION, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17FOR IF, BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, DEATH REIGNED THROUGH THAT ONE MAN, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, JUST AS THE RESULT OF ONE TRESPASS WAS CONDEMNATION FOR ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:21,22 – “21FOR SINCE DEATH CAME THROUGH A MAN, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Quote.
We inherit Adam's sinful flesh nature, but we do not inherit his guilt and condemnation. We are guitly and condemned based on the sins we ourselves commit. Neither are we guilty simply because we possess a nature that clamors for sin.
Unquote.

Please give me a verse from the Scripture for this idea.

I think it is not right according to the gospel of Christ and here are the verses that support my idea including those above.

Romans 3:23 – “23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.
All men were born with the character of “self-love” they inherit through Adam’s multiplication, and this character is a sin in the real sense as it transgressed the nature of God “love that seeks no self in it.”
Romans 6:23 –“The wages of sin is death.”
Romans 5:18 – “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”

Quote.
In the case of people who never learn about Jesus and His salvation, God will determine their eternal destiny based on the life they would have lived if they had heard the gospel.
Unquote.

I think there is no verses in the Scripture to back up this idea, judgment to those who never hear the law and the Gospel is based on their character, did they have love for their fellow men or not.

All right Mike, I like your thoughts but please support it with correct bible verses.
As my idea was based on those verses I give above and in all my postings.

In His love

James S.

Broer Ikan.

It is not the way to defense your theology or doctrine if just commenting like that.

Please give me your best theology counter based on the Scripture.

Thanks for participating.

In His love

James S.

= = = ==

Avalee.

All of you have given me your reasoning based on the doctrine and church teaching and the SOP, but I countered it all based on the Scripture.

As I say I will counter verse by verse to show that the Ten Commandments was over and keeping it will only lead to condemnation and death, but you just ignoring it.

Here is the verses again and tell me what you think about it.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 – “6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!”

Romans 7:9-10 –“9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.”

Romans 3:19,20 –“19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

Romans 6:23 –“The wages of sin is death.”

Romans 7:5,6 – “For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, WE HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW SO THAT WE SERVE IN THE NEW WAY OF THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLD WAY OF THE WRITTEN CODE.”

Compare it with 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

It is an easy and simple to understand the cripture but people like to make it difficult and contradicting each other to hold up their doctrines and teachings.

In His love

James S.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

James my only comment is I stand by what I posted on: posted June 19, 2002 12:29 PM. I will continue to post the truth for those who might happen to read your errors to help them and they can choose between the truth and error. I will leave it up to others to debate you. I am praying for you and for those who might be deceived by reading error that involves their salvation.

James, the following passages teach that sin and guilt cannot be transferred or imputed:

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Romans 4
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The entire sanctuary system teaches that each person is responsible for their own sin and guilt. The Bible quotes you shared do not teach that we are guilty and condemned based on Adam's sin. I believe they teach that we inherit Adam's fallen nature and that consequently we automatically sin, and that it is this sin that condemns us.

Jesus did indeed pay the penalty of sin for everyone, but this does not mean that everyone is automatically justified and saved. We must consent to cooperate with the Holy Spirit who empowers us to lay aside sin and to experience the miracle of rebirth.

People do not inherit salvation or damnation. We must choose or refuse salvation or damnation in order to be saved or lost. The life, death, resurrection and mediation of Jesus gives everyone a second chance to be saved or lost.

Amen Mike...very well put.

[ June 21, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll post here a few passages from the Bible that show the Ten Commandments are every bit as much in force now as they've ever been.

"These words [the Ten Commandments] the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." -- Deuteronomy 5:22

"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips." -- Psalm 89:34

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:17-19.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." -- James 2:10-12

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." -- Revelation 11:19. This occurs at the end of the present age; just what might be inside that "ark of His testament" in the heavenly temple? Why, the Ten Commandmments of course. The two tables of stone were placed in the earthly ark, and that earthly ark, as well as everything else having to do with the earthly temple, was built as a model of the heavenly.

"...Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith He, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." -- Hebrews 8:5

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." -- Hebrews 9:23

If the earthly "pattern" ark contained the Ten Commandments (and still does, wherever it may be hidden), then the heavenly ark also contains the Ten Commandments. As we speak.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." -- Revelation 22:14. The implications for those who do not keep His commandments are obvious.

[ June 21, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: John ]

Mike.

The bible quotes you had given refer to the sins committed by a law keeper (Ezekiel and Deuteronomy), but you overlooked one important thing that all men must die because of their nature they inherit from Adam since the fall. This fallen nature that is sin because it falls short of the glory of God, a nature of self-love that is against God’s agape love.

But men are not responsible for the nature they were born with and since they can do nothing from them selves to change it, God must make an act to fix this problem. And he did it through Christ redemption that saved men from the condemnation of death by giving them a second life after he justified all men in Christ. He did this to show and to prove his great love and mercy as he claims him self to be.

And since he justified all men and gives their life back, men will be responsible for their own sin if they live in sin. Christ didn’t redeem men from this sin, otherwise all will go to heaven no matter a believer or not.

Quote.
I believe they teach that we inherit Adam's fallen nature and that consequently we automatically sin, and that it is this sin that condemns us.
Unquote.

Christ redemption was related to the sin we inherit in our nature from Adam. “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” 12Therefore, JUST AS SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ONE MAN, AND DEATH THROUGH SIN, AND IN THIS WAY DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED. THE JUDGMENT FOLLOWED ONE SIN AND BROUGHT CONDEMNATION, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17FOR IF, BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, DEATH REIGNED THROUGH THAT ONE MAN, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Consequently, JUST AS THE RESULT OF ONE TRESPASS WAS CONDEMNATION FOR ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam sinned and got a change of nature, his descendants inherit this fallen nature that is a sin in it self. Christ redeemed men from this SIN (singular) not from their sins, otherwise all will go to heaven because this redemption is God’s grace that brought justification for life as a free gift to all men. And since the cross God will remember our sins and iniquities no more that means there is no law that will judge us and condemns us because Christ has made us just and holy once and for all. “When there is no law there is no transgression and sin will not be imputed.” Romans 4
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

A man die the second death not because he received the wages of his sins since God remember his sins no more and have forgiven him once and for all at the cross, but because he has a character that doesn’t fit heavenly principle and secondly, since our life is in Christ, only those who remain in Christ by faith will continue to live but a man that lives for himself (for the flesh) does not remain in Christ or Christ expelled him out (John 15:1-6), and out side of Christ there is no life but eternal death. You may read this conclusions in Romans, Galatians and in all Pauline epistle.

Quote.
Jesus did indeed pay the penalty of sin for everyone, but this does not mean that everyone is automatically justified and saved. We must consent to cooperate with the Holy Spirit who empowers us to lay aside sin and to experience the miracle of rebirth.
Unquote.

There are two kinds of Justification, the first is a free gift as God grace that brought life to all men, the second is justification by faith in Christ for to remain alive and fit for heaven. So, Christ dead automatically justified and saved all men as a free gift, but a man must remain in Christ by faith to remain alive and enter heaven.

The first Justification (a free gift) is our ticket to heaven and the second justification (by faith) is our fitness for heaven. This is clearly clarified in Romans 3:19-24 and Romans 8:1-4.

I think I have share the truth according to the Gospel of Christ, the question is could you understand this and accept this.

Please read my long post slowly to understand what I mean and to see the truth in it.

In His love

James S.

John thank you for posting truth to counter the error. You, Ikan, and Charlene are doing a wonderful job in doing this for our Saviour who came to this world to die on the cross for us.

James, I can no longer support your unbiblical views. You are dead wrong when it comnes to sin and salvation. I now believe that your thoughts and ideas are dangerous and deadly.

Moderators, please deny James access to the MSDAOL forum in accordance with the rules of this forum. Thank you.

I have just emailed our Bible Worker for our church to see if she has any help for this. I don't know what else can be said as all of you have said more than enough to prove what James believes is error. But since his salvation is at stake here I would like to see what she comes up with first.

Amen again Mike.....
maybe if asked, James will leave by his own choice for he has no believers on this forum that i have seen. All that have posted have recognized his errors in his theology. Mike, he is not hear to learn but to teach.

First of all I would like to say a special thank you to all of those you have posted on this thread. James has presented some ideas that he believes to be true, which most of us do not agree with according to the Bible and the Spirit Of Prophecy. I must admit he has given us alot to study and I believe you did not fail but proved to be good Bible students, just like the Bereans.

quote:

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Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Faith and Works
Obedience and Sanctification
Page 86

When errors arise and are taught as Bible truth, those who have a connection with Christ will not trust to what the minister says, but like the noble Bereans, they will search the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so. When they
discover what is the word of the Lord, they will take their stand on the side of the truth. They will hear the voice of the True Shepherd saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." Thus you
will be educated to make the Bible the man of your counsel, and the voice of a stranger you will neither hear nor follow.

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I am closing this post as it seems to me and others that all has been said here that can be said, and we just keep going over and over the same thing. James I am praying for you that you will keep studying and be more open to the studies that have been presented to you on this forum.

[ June 22, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]