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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45831
10/06/02 12:09 AM
10/06/02 12:09 AM
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Mark
It would be easier to swallow what you are plying here, if, the criteria you have suggested, was not, in some respects subjective.
God is the only one Scripture reveals as able to properly decide when one is gone over the boundaries you describe. Even in cases of disfellowship; the purpose of God's people, is still redemptive, (or should be), and ones qualified and able in the church, should still be working for that brother's or sister's soul.
Read the church manual...It's spelled out pretty clear and simple.
You run mighty close to Satan's vantage ground, when you try to decide who not to pray for, or work for, instead of letting God take care of it His way. Where, in Christ's ministry, does He advocate and practice such witch craft?
MB.124.001
"Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." 1 Corinthians 4:5. We cannot read the heart. Ourselves faulty, we are not qualified to sit in judgment upon others. Finite men can judge only from outward appearance. To Him alone who knows the secret springs of action, and who deals tenderly and compassionately, is it given to decide the case of every soul.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45832
10/06/02 05:08 PM
10/06/02 05:08 PM
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Call it witchcraft if you like. But you may be prejudicing your own mind before coming to an accurate understanding of the text that started the thread. I don't know exactly how to interpret it but I think when John and Paul say don't pray for some kinds of sin and/or sinners, we should try to understand it. In the old testement there is a prophecy where the parents of sons who are false prophets will execute the sons. This seems to be in the future when the new order is established after the second coming, but all scripture is for edification. Let's look dispassionately and with clear minds and uncharged rhetoric at these texts.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45833
10/11/02 12:13 AM
10/11/02 12:13 AM
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OP
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quote:
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. . . . O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
I've been interested in the fact that in this prayer of Christ, his Priestly prayer for the church, he excludes the world in his intercessions. Why? Earlier in this book we have the statement that God so loved the world . . . . But here he excludes the world in his prayer. He prays only for those that the Father has given him. Why?
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45834
10/12/02 12:09 AM
10/12/02 12:09 AM
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More texts on prayer. In the first one, David weeps for those who forsake God and his law. Two verses later he says he is consumed with zeal for the same reason. 19 verses later he is grieved with transgressors again for the same reason. In all these cases, he doesn't tell us whether he is praying for them. Perhaps he is. He ends this exceptional psalm in a surprizing way. The whole Psalm has been a testimony of his love for and adherance to the Law. But in the end he recognizes that compared to the Law his character is faulty - he compares himself finally to a lost sheep. quote:
119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law. 119:137 Tzaddi. Righteous [art] thou, O Lord, and upright [are] thy judgments. 119:138 Thy testimonies [that] thou hast commanded [are] righteous and very faithful. 119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. …. 119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word. 119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness. 119:160 . . . 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
In the next passage, notice the connection between some illnesses and sin. Clearly not all illness is caused by sin, but some is. Venerial disease is an example. The connection seems to be broader. David says several times that unconfessed sin ate at him so that he lost weight and his bones stuck out. Similarly here we have a close connection between good health, prayer and confession of sin to one another. quote:
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
The next test seems to be along the lines of the one that started the thread. The idea seems to be that anyone who commits sin high handedly, knowing it is wrong, will not be heard. This is in line with the Mosaic law where the person who commits high handed sin is not to bring a sacrifice. No intercession is permitted by the Levitical priests. When Christ refers to the world, and does not pray for it, perhaps He has this kind of transgression in mind. quote:
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45835
10/12/02 05:54 PM
10/12/02 05:54 PM
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People seem to have shied away from this topic, possibly because no one wants to be perceived as a person who would not pray for someone else. My conclusion below is that it is Biblical to not pray for a specific kind of sin. The Bible sets out the following counsel on prayer for others: 1) For unconverted people, especially those that are persecuting us, prayers are commanded. quote:
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48
When Paul delivered Alexander to Satan, it was for a redemptive purpose - so that he would learn not to blaspheme. Paul seems to have done his best to enlighten his fellow Jew, but after Alexander repeatedly rejected the light, Paul leaves this burden with God in this particular area and asks God to deal with it - even through Satan.
2) For converted people, the same dynamic seems to operate in Matthew 18. Where someone is entangled in sin, the brother who becomes aware of it should prayerfully attempt to help restore the wanderer. If the person refuses correction, the person is to be shunned. More than this, the sentence of excommunication, if it is just, is ratified in Heaven.
quote:
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:15-20
The best New Testament example of where this instruction was implemented is with the Corinthian fornicator. Originally, the Corinthians refused to take action, but Paul corrected their course and the man was delivered to Satan. He apparently would not be reasoned with at first and had to be excluded from the church. But later he fully repented. Following the counsel of I John 5, once the church had followed the counsel of Matthew 18, they no longer had a burden to pray for this man’s high handed sin. But at the first sign of repentance, prayers should be resumed. Paul who required the man’s disfellowship was among the first to urge his restoration.
The main area where people get tripped up is in refusing to pray for someone because they hold a grudge. This is a worse mistake of course than praying for someone’s high handed sin.
quote:
Leviticus 19:18
19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the Lord.
James 5:9
5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Few people are able it seems to strike the proper balance that David achieved. Notice that he hates the wicked below with a perfect hatred. He counts them his enemies. But it is not a vindictive hatred; he is grieved with them. He sheds stream of tears for them.
quote:
Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, [and] thine enemies take [thy name] in vain. 139:21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 139:24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:19-24
Like Christ, David doesn’t pray for the world. He is grieved with the world. He loves the world. But his prayer is for Spiritual Israel, the church, the little flock, that is, all who will respond to the appeals of the Holy Spirit.
[ October 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45836
10/13/02 12:49 AM
10/13/02 12:49 AM
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‘My mind is greatly perplexed over these things, because I cannot harmonize them with the course that is being pursued. I am fearful to sanction sin, and I am fearful to let go of the sinner and make no effort to restore him. I think if our hearts were more fully imbued with the spirit of Christ, we should have His melting love, and should work with spiritual power to restore the erring and not leave them under Satan’s control. We need good heart religion that we shall not only reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine, but we shall take the erring in our arms of faith and bear them to the cross of Christ. We must bring them in contact with the sin-pardoning Saviour.
‘I am more pained than I can express to see so little aptitude and skill to save souls that are ensnared by Satan. I see such a cold Pharisaism, holding off at arm’s length the one who has been deluded by the adversary of souls, and then I think what if Jesus treated us in this way. Is this spirit to grow among us? If so, my brethren must excuse me, I cannot labor with them. I will not be a party to this kind of labor.
"I call to mind the shepherd hunting the lost sheep and the prodigal son. I want those parables to have their influence upon my heart and my mind. I think of Jesus, what love and tenderness He manifested for the erring, fallen man and then I think of the severe judgment one pronounces upon his brother that has fallen under temptation and my heart becomes sick. I see the iron in hearts, and think we should pray for hearts of flesh." Letter 16-1887
"The Lord wants His people to follow other methods than that of condemning wrong, even though the condemnation be just. He wants us to do something more than to hurl at our adversaries charges that only drive them further from the truth. The work which Christ came to do in our world was not to erect barriers and constantly thrust upon the people the fact that they were wrong." TC6, 122
‘There are many who try to correct the life of others by attacking what they consider are wrong habits. They go to those whom they think are in error, and point out their defects. They try to pick off the ornaments, or whatever seems offensive, but they do not seek to fasten the mind to the truth. Those who seek to correct others should present the attractions of Jesus. They should talk of His love and compassion, present His example and sacrifice, reveal His Spirit. Talk of Christ, and when the heart is converted, everything that is out of harmony with the Word of God will drop off." Evangelism 272
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45837
10/14/02 03:06 AM
10/14/02 03:06 AM
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OP
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SOP reader, thank you. That's a good reminder of what our focus should be.
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