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When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45811
09/15/02 11:14 AM
09/15/02 11:14 AM
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When do we apply the bolded text: quote:
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:14-18
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45812
09/16/02 10:49 AM
09/16/02 10:49 AM
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In the church it has been said for years that no one is capable of judging a brother so far as the individual's conscience is concerned, so, the conventional wisdom is that we should not give up praying for others even when their case seems hopeless. "Where there is life, there is hope".
The last part of the bolded text above directs us not to pray for someone whose sin is unto death. For us to follow that divine direction, wouldn't we have to discern when the individual has crossed that line? This text says yes. So my question is, not only when is it wrong - the answer is given to this in the text - but how do we know when someone crosses that line?
Did Paul rely on this principle when he delivered an apostate Christian to Satan so that the apostate would 'learn not to blaspheme.'
[ September 16, 2002, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45813
09/17/02 03:16 AM
09/17/02 03:16 AM
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Mark, like you, I am so thankful we are not called upon to judge our brethren. The word "discern" implies noticing the obvious. If a person is in open rebellion, we are counseled not to hang out with them as though nothing is amiss. And we should not pray for them to prosper in their rebellion, but we should pray for their speedy return to Christ and His righteousness.
2 Thes 3:14,15
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45814
09/16/02 09:08 PM
09/16/02 09:08 PM
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In re-reading the text, I noted that the article at the end of the sentence refers to the sin. So the directive from John is to not pray for a certain kind of sin rather than a certain kind of individual. But given the fact that Paul under inspiration delivered an apostate to Satan, it seems the same principle applies to not just the sin but to the individual. So when is it appropriate to deliver an individual to Satan? What kind of sin are we talking about. Before we answer, remember that Manassah, one of 'Hells Angels' who would have had some knowledge of the truth even in his rebellion finally became fully converted.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45815
09/21/02 09:44 AM
09/21/02 09:44 AM
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Below is the passage where Paul states he has delivered two of the members of the early church to Satan. Notice however that right after saying this he exhorts the believers to make intercessory prayer for all men. Does he mean all men including those that he has delivered to Satan? Or are these two men cases in point where they fall into that class spoken of by John., that is, those who have sinned a sin that is unto death which should not be prayed for. Or is it just the sin that should not be prayed for? quote:
This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[ September 21, 2002, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45816
09/21/02 07:08 PM
09/21/02 07:08 PM
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Notice what Peter and Paul say about apostate believers, especially the bolded parts: quote:
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . . 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. IIPeter 2
quote:
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 6:10
There is a difference between backsliding and a complete falling away as described here in Hebrews. Is this complete falling away the sin that John is speaking of that should not be prayed for? If so, how are we to discern when that takes place? In the case of Manassah, the fall seemed complete, yet he repented fully later. Is the difference in Manassah's case that he was never initially converted.
[ September 22, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45817
09/23/02 05:40 AM
09/23/02 05:40 AM
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Mark, as a pastor, I have many opportunities to "discern" the open sins of church members. It's not the best part of being a minister of the gospel, that's for sure. Giving someone over to Satan is not an easy matter. But that's essentially what happens when a church votes to disfellowship someone. As always, we need to pray for that person's salvation.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45818
09/23/02 08:33 PM
09/23/02 08:33 PM
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Disfellowshipping and delivering a person to Satan seem biblically different. In the former, you have a decision not to fellowship with the offender by the body. In the latter, disfellowshipping is likely a given, but in addition we have something in the nature of a curse invoked on the person. I don't think the two processes should be equated.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45819
09/24/02 05:36 AM
09/24/02 05:36 AM
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If delivering someone over to Satan is based on open sin, I'm not sure how it would be different than disfellowshiping the person. What are your thoughts?
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45820
09/26/02 12:20 AM
09/26/02 12:20 AM
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Do we agree that when a person is disfellowshipped that they are not necessarily lost? Where the aggrieved partner has terminated the marriage, the adulterer may repent, but the church would be wrong to take the offender back into fellowship. The innocent party would continually be faced with the pain, embarrassment and outrage of the offender. The offender would need to find salvation apart from the body. This wouldn’t be a case of both disfellowshipping and delivering the person to Satan.
What about Christ’s instruction to the disciples to shake the dust off their feet when they are rejected in a town. Similar to a delivery to Satan isn’t it? I don’t know of any Adventist evangelist who has practiced that do you? Is it because they were always successful? No. This was practiced in NT times however. It’s effect is perhaps greater on the one who follows out the directive than those who see it done. Anyone who cleans the dirt off his shoes in public from a modern Capernium will not do it unless they truly believe that the Holy Spirit has offered life and death choices through their ministry that have been spurned. When the disciples received this instruction they must have been impressed with the solemnity of the message they were to bear. Do you think any of them had occasion to do what Christ said?
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45821
09/26/02 03:18 AM
09/26/02 03:18 AM
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Mark
First of all, I would like to question your “hermenutics” here.
Is it always a good idea to build a doctrine on just one short Bible passage, such as you appear to be doing here? What is the bigger picture in this passage, and the intent of the author? If it is to not pray for certain ones, under certain conditions; why doesn’t God come out and tell us clearly how to handle such a serious matter? Is there any other Bible passages that would lend support to your ideas here about not praying for others?
Reading over your comments here so far, gives one the impression that the only possibility is for us to not pray for certain ones; yet, being stuck with the fact that God tells us to do something that God does not give us adequate instructions for.
I also have to wonder if you really know what the Bible means, when it says Paul “delivered an apostate Christian to Satan?” Can you tell us what specific actions Paul took, and why? In your September 16th post, you ask us “When is it appropriate to deliver an individual to Satan?” But you do not come out and say what this would involve us doing. Can you explain this better for us?
Also, in Sept 16th, you mentioned that we are to pray for not only individuals; but “pray for sins.” (or not pray for). What does it mean for a Christian to pray for sins, as opposed to praying for a person? Is there such a thing as “praying, or not praying for sins?How do you pray for a sin? That seems really convoluted, and unbiblical. You also said in Sept. 21st: “a sin that should not be prayed for.” I have never heard of praying for a sin. I have only heard of praying for people. Is there not something missing in our understanding of this text?
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45822
09/28/02 01:05 AM
09/28/02 01:05 AM
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A valid question David, - what is involved in delivering someone to Satan. None of us were there when Paul did this, but Christianity being an open belief system, I envision that Paul under inspiration and in the presence of the offenders informed them of their blasphemy and said that God had delivered them to the bondage of sin and Satan as a consequence. This is an action affecting individuals. Again, the parallel action for a corporate body seems to be the public shaking of dust off against a community/group that rejects the gospel.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45823
09/28/02 10:23 AM
09/28/02 10:23 AM
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There is definitely a biblical basis for refusing to pray for an individual at times. The main purpose of the thread is to explore the when more than the whether. quote:
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
In this text, the word impossible is used. It's like on Regis. The Holy Spirit says, "Is that your final answer?" You say 'yes' emphatically. Your fate like Esau's is sealed. Even if you seek repentance with tears, it will not come to you. You are excluded from the inheritance of the first born. Even Samuel or Moses would not be able to intercede for you. Like with Samuel who continued to intercede for Saul, the Lord finally has to say to your friends and family, 'strike that person from your prayer list, I have rejected them. It is impossible to restore them. They are beyond repentance.'
In the Investigative judgment, sentence is pronounced on individuals prior to the end of the judgment process.
quote:
To Jesus, the Son of man, is committed all judgment. There is one mediator between God and men. Only by Him can we enter the kingdom of heaven. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. From His decision there is no appeal. .-- The Review and Herald, March 12, 1901. {7ABC 483.1}
[ September 28, 2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45824
09/29/02 09:26 AM
09/29/02 09:26 AM
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This is a negative topic and I don't especially enjoy it. Since it is not generating very much interest, I may leave it for now. Our focus should be primarily on the mercy and love of God, but because much of what passes for love these days is really sentimentality, I thought it would be good to bring out one of the sterner realities of the Bible.
Another of the points I wanted to bring out before signing off for now is that we have in our area people who view themselves as prayer warriors. In their mind, prayer solves everything. Intercessory prayer for everyone is what is needed. But is it? Well, yes and no.
One author has called God the hound of heaven. He stays on the track of the lost until He catches up with us. But when He catches us, does he take us captive to His will, or does He plead with us and offer us choices?
In my experience, presumptuous prayers are common place among SDA's from individuals and congregations. We pray for the healing of the sick knowing that they are abusing their health and know better. We pray for the salvation of our children while we ourselves are in rebellion. We pray for blessings on ourselves and on others when we should be asking for discipline and correction. We ask God to make us happy and prosperous when we should be asking Him to make us mourn.
Mind you, it is far better to be in earnest prayer for others mistakenly than to write someone off that the Holy Spirit is still wooing. But according to the Bible, while the prayer of the righteous man avails much, there is a time for everything. A time to intercede and a time not to intercede. And, even a time to deliver an apostate to Satan? Apparently so.
[ September 29, 2002, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45825
09/30/02 01:39 AM
09/30/02 01:39 AM
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HYPOCRISY
"If [anyone] sees their [fellow human] sin a sin which is not unto death, [they] shall ask, and He shall give them life for them that sin not unto death." (1 Jo.5:16).
If we don't pay close attention to the way the Holy Spirit works in us personally, we will become spiritual hypocrites.
We will see where other people are failing, and we will turn our insight into backstabbing criticism rather than intercession to God on their behalf.
The revelation of someone else's failings is not ever made to us through the acuteness of our minds, but by the direct revelation of the Spirit of God, in a very personal way. If we are not heedful of the source, and reason of the revelation, we will become criticising, complaining Christians, and forget how God says: "...He shall ask, and He shall give him life for them that sin not unto death."
Take care, lest you play the hypocrite by spending all your time, inside your head, or verbally, or by your actions, trying to get some other one right, before you worship God yourself through intercessory prayer.
One of the subtlest burdens God ever puts onto Christians, is this burden of discernment concerning other souls. How Christians have abused this discernment!!
God reveals things, or permits them to be revealed, in order that we may take the burden of these souls before Him and form the mind of Christ about them. As we intercede on God's line, God says He will give us "life for them that sin not unto death." It is ALWAYS God's decision...NEVER our's.
It is never that we bring God into touch with our minds; but that we open ourselves to God's voice until God is able to convey His mind to us about the person or persons for whom we are interceding.
"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem others as better than themselves. Look not every person on their own things, but every person also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." (Phil.2:3-5). "Pray for your enemies..."
Is Jesus seeing the exertions of His soul in us? How can He, unless we are so identified with Him, that we are divinely inspired by His Spirit to have His view about the people that we are praying for?
May we learn to intercede so whole heartedly, that Jesus Christ will be abundantly satisfied with us as intercessors!
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45826
10/03/02 10:30 AM
10/03/02 10:30 AM
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I am back here earlier than I expected. I did a short study on those whom Paul condemned in the New Testament. I found that Alexander the Ephesian coppersmith was never converted. Paul seems to have delivered him to Satan after Alexander had great opportunity to view his work. Alexander witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit and yet rejected the evidence and apparently attributed these manifestation to Satan. Alexander was the Jew whom the Jewish Ephesians put forward during the riot in Ephesus caused by the tradesmen who made their living on images and shrines of the goddess Dianna. The story is in Acts 19. Hymenaeus, the other person delivered to Satan seems to have been converted and then fell away, taken captive by his own speculative theology. It is somewhat surprizing to me that Paul puts him in the same class as Alexander. Hymenaeus was no doubt sincere in his speculative beliefs. Like the Jews who rejected Christ, he thought he was doing God a service. But the condemnation in both cases is identical. Apparently, God holds us accountable for the way we handle light because he know just how and where the Spirit has impressed us, and keeps an accurate record of our stewardship of the light we received. quote:
1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. ITimothy 1:20, II Timothy 2:17-19.
4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.
II Timothy 4:10
When I say God keeps a record of how we respond to light, I don't mean that He is looking to punish us. He impresses us repeatedly with the same light, but every rejection on our part has a blinding effect on our consciences.
Regarding Demas, Paul initially classes Demas with Luke as a valuable fellow labourer. Demas seems to have remained faithful for quite some time, labouring with Paul, but during Pauls final imprisonment, he seems to have lost heart and forsaken Paul in his chains and loved this present world. Paul simply laments this, and offers no additional condemnation.
quote:
4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colosians 4:14
1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers. Philimon 1;24
4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. II Timothy 4:10
[ October 03, 2002, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45827
10/03/02 11:53 AM
10/03/02 11:53 AM
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Hello Mark
I think there has been generalized acknowledgement of the above texts you have just supplied; but, it seems we still do not have a clear idea of what the Bible means when Paul gives these two over to Satan. That Paul did this, is a given; yet, what exactly is it that Paul did?
I noticed that Paul states: "That they may learn not to blaspheme."
Is this a blanket condemnation? It seems to suggest something more positive.
ST.1890-01-13.002
We should seek to appreciate the unparalleled mercy and the inexpressible love of God in not giving those who have dishonored him into the hands of the enemy of souls. It is the care of God that preserves them from Satan's power. Satan constantly presents the sins and wrongs of those who claim to be the children of God, and he taunts the angels of God with their defects. What will bring the Lord's people into a right position before him? The Lord answers the question in Malachi, saying, "Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts." When we seek the Lord with full purpose of heart, he will be found of us.
I notice also in 1 Tim.4:14 Paul states: "I pray that this not be laid to their charge." How do we reconcile this line of thought with the giving of them over to Satan?
I would suggest it simply means we have to sometimes recognize our own limitations with a person we are trying to educate with truth, and admit when our efforts may be better spent elsewhere; letting God take care of the matter another way. This seems more in line and balanced with other related Scripture and SOP; and it seems to be the context of what Paul actually did here when he says he "gave them over to Satan."
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45828
10/03/02 04:45 PM
10/03/02 04:45 PM
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Maybe the answer can be found in this wonderful vision.
The Day-Star---- 01-24-46
"As God has shown me in holy vision the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City, and the rich reward to be given those who wait the return of their Lord from the wedding, it may be my duty to give you a short sketch of what God has revealed to me. The dear saints have got many trials to pass through. But our light afflictions which are but for a moment worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, for the things which are seen are temporal, but the
things which are not seen are eternal. I have tried to bring back a good report, & a few grapes from the heavenly Canaan, for which many would stone me, as the congregation bade stone Caleb and Joshua for their report, (Num. 14:10.) But I declare to you, my brother in the Lord, it is a goodly land, and we are well able to go up and possess it. While praying at the family altar the Holy Ghost fell on me and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them, when a voice said to me, Look again, and look a little higher. At this, I raised my eyes and see a strait and narrow
path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and said the City was a great way off, and
they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted, Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out which left their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again & go to the City, as all
the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000, in
number, know and understand the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder & an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy
Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai, (Ex. 34:30-34.) By this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us in prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us who could wash one another's feet, and salute the holy brethren with a holy
kiss, and they worshipped at our feet. Soon our eyes were drawn to the East, for a small black cloud had appeared about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the Sign of the Son of Man. We all in solemn silence gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, lighter, and brighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire, a rainbow was over it, around the cloud were ten thousand angels singing a most lovely song. And on it sat the Son of Man, on his head were
crowns, his hair was white and curly and lay on his shoulders. His feet had the appearance of fire, in his right hand was a sharp sickle, in his left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched his children
through and through. Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out, who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless? Then the angels ceased to sing, and there was
some time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke, Those who have clean hands and a pure heart shall be able to stand, my grace is sufficient for you. At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sung again while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints then raised his eyes and hands to heaven & cried out, Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in
the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted,
Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. We all entered the cloud together, and were 7 days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared hung with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly
satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. ............go read the rest...it is beautiful
Praise the Lord.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45829
10/05/02 08:56 AM
10/05/02 08:56 AM
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Charlene, what you posted is a good example of what I think John and the other apostles had in mind. Notice that even the bolded wording is almost the same. quote:
Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out which left their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again & go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. EGW, Early Writings
Compare this with Hebrew 6:4-6:
quote:
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Samuel Bacchiocchi and many other theologians seem to class the statement above from Sister White as part of the shut door idea that Ellen White eventually 'corrected'. The evidence that I have seen though is that years later she still believed that for much of Protestant America, the door had been shut when they rejected the Millerite message. As far as I am aware, she always held to the view that a person is only responsible for the light that they have. In the case of the Millerite message, I don't think she ever taught that all of Protestant America was accountable, but that she believed that those whom the Spirit impressed with the message were.
[ October 05, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45830
10/05/02 02:00 PM
10/05/02 02:00 PM
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David, in I Corinthians there is yet another example of a delivery to Satan that is clearly more in line with the points you raised in your last post. The purpose even of the delivery to Satan is redemptive: quote:
5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. …. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. I Cor 5:1-5
I agree with your last post. I would just add that I think that when the person reaches the point where they are beyond the help of the church, it is appropriate at some point to not pray for someone who refuses to give up known sin. God himself mornfully said of Ephrium, he is joined to his idols, let him alone.
In the case of the Corinthian fornicator, the church followed the Apostles counsel and delivered him to Satan. In the next book however, Paul urges complete restoration. The delivery to Satan was redemptive.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45831
10/06/02 12:09 AM
10/06/02 12:09 AM
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Mark
It would be easier to swallow what you are plying here, if, the criteria you have suggested, was not, in some respects subjective.
God is the only one Scripture reveals as able to properly decide when one is gone over the boundaries you describe. Even in cases of disfellowship; the purpose of God's people, is still redemptive, (or should be), and ones qualified and able in the church, should still be working for that brother's or sister's soul.
Read the church manual...It's spelled out pretty clear and simple.
You run mighty close to Satan's vantage ground, when you try to decide who not to pray for, or work for, instead of letting God take care of it His way. Where, in Christ's ministry, does He advocate and practice such witch craft?
MB.124.001
"Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." 1 Corinthians 4:5. We cannot read the heart. Ourselves faulty, we are not qualified to sit in judgment upon others. Finite men can judge only from outward appearance. To Him alone who knows the secret springs of action, and who deals tenderly and compassionately, is it given to decide the case of every soul.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45832
10/06/02 05:08 PM
10/06/02 05:08 PM
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Call it witchcraft if you like. But you may be prejudicing your own mind before coming to an accurate understanding of the text that started the thread. I don't know exactly how to interpret it but I think when John and Paul say don't pray for some kinds of sin and/or sinners, we should try to understand it. In the old testement there is a prophecy where the parents of sons who are false prophets will execute the sons. This seems to be in the future when the new order is established after the second coming, but all scripture is for edification. Let's look dispassionately and with clear minds and uncharged rhetoric at these texts.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45833
10/11/02 12:13 AM
10/11/02 12:13 AM
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quote:
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. . . . O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
I've been interested in the fact that in this prayer of Christ, his Priestly prayer for the church, he excludes the world in his intercessions. Why? Earlier in this book we have the statement that God so loved the world . . . . But here he excludes the world in his prayer. He prays only for those that the Father has given him. Why?
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45834
10/12/02 12:09 AM
10/12/02 12:09 AM
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More texts on prayer. In the first one, David weeps for those who forsake God and his law. Two verses later he says he is consumed with zeal for the same reason. 19 verses later he is grieved with transgressors again for the same reason. In all these cases, he doesn't tell us whether he is praying for them. Perhaps he is. He ends this exceptional psalm in a surprizing way. The whole Psalm has been a testimony of his love for and adherance to the Law. But in the end he recognizes that compared to the Law his character is faulty - he compares himself finally to a lost sheep. quote:
119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law. 119:137 Tzaddi. Righteous [art] thou, O Lord, and upright [are] thy judgments. 119:138 Thy testimonies [that] thou hast commanded [are] righteous and very faithful. 119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. …. 119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word. 119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness. 119:160 . . . 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
In the next passage, notice the connection between some illnesses and sin. Clearly not all illness is caused by sin, but some is. Venerial disease is an example. The connection seems to be broader. David says several times that unconfessed sin ate at him so that he lost weight and his bones stuck out. Similarly here we have a close connection between good health, prayer and confession of sin to one another. quote:
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
The next test seems to be along the lines of the one that started the thread. The idea seems to be that anyone who commits sin high handedly, knowing it is wrong, will not be heard. This is in line with the Mosaic law where the person who commits high handed sin is not to bring a sacrifice. No intercession is permitted by the Levitical priests. When Christ refers to the world, and does not pray for it, perhaps He has this kind of transgression in mind. quote:
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45835
10/12/02 05:54 PM
10/12/02 05:54 PM
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People seem to have shied away from this topic, possibly because no one wants to be perceived as a person who would not pray for someone else. My conclusion below is that it is Biblical to not pray for a specific kind of sin. The Bible sets out the following counsel on prayer for others: 1) For unconverted people, especially those that are persecuting us, prayers are commanded. quote:
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48
When Paul delivered Alexander to Satan, it was for a redemptive purpose - so that he would learn not to blaspheme. Paul seems to have done his best to enlighten his fellow Jew, but after Alexander repeatedly rejected the light, Paul leaves this burden with God in this particular area and asks God to deal with it - even through Satan.
2) For converted people, the same dynamic seems to operate in Matthew 18. Where someone is entangled in sin, the brother who becomes aware of it should prayerfully attempt to help restore the wanderer. If the person refuses correction, the person is to be shunned. More than this, the sentence of excommunication, if it is just, is ratified in Heaven.
quote:
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:15-20
The best New Testament example of where this instruction was implemented is with the Corinthian fornicator. Originally, the Corinthians refused to take action, but Paul corrected their course and the man was delivered to Satan. He apparently would not be reasoned with at first and had to be excluded from the church. But later he fully repented. Following the counsel of I John 5, once the church had followed the counsel of Matthew 18, they no longer had a burden to pray for this man’s high handed sin. But at the first sign of repentance, prayers should be resumed. Paul who required the man’s disfellowship was among the first to urge his restoration.
The main area where people get tripped up is in refusing to pray for someone because they hold a grudge. This is a worse mistake of course than praying for someone’s high handed sin.
quote:
Leviticus 19:18
19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the Lord.
James 5:9
5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Few people are able it seems to strike the proper balance that David achieved. Notice that he hates the wicked below with a perfect hatred. He counts them his enemies. But it is not a vindictive hatred; he is grieved with them. He sheds stream of tears for them.
quote:
Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, [and] thine enemies take [thy name] in vain. 139:21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 139:24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:19-24
Like Christ, David doesn’t pray for the world. He is grieved with the world. He loves the world. But his prayer is for Spiritual Israel, the church, the little flock, that is, all who will respond to the appeals of the Holy Spirit.
[ October 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45836
10/13/02 12:49 AM
10/13/02 12:49 AM
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‘My mind is greatly perplexed over these things, because I cannot harmonize them with the course that is being pursued. I am fearful to sanction sin, and I am fearful to let go of the sinner and make no effort to restore him. I think if our hearts were more fully imbued with the spirit of Christ, we should have His melting love, and should work with spiritual power to restore the erring and not leave them under Satan’s control. We need good heart religion that we shall not only reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine, but we shall take the erring in our arms of faith and bear them to the cross of Christ. We must bring them in contact with the sin-pardoning Saviour.
‘I am more pained than I can express to see so little aptitude and skill to save souls that are ensnared by Satan. I see such a cold Pharisaism, holding off at arm’s length the one who has been deluded by the adversary of souls, and then I think what if Jesus treated us in this way. Is this spirit to grow among us? If so, my brethren must excuse me, I cannot labor with them. I will not be a party to this kind of labor.
"I call to mind the shepherd hunting the lost sheep and the prodigal son. I want those parables to have their influence upon my heart and my mind. I think of Jesus, what love and tenderness He manifested for the erring, fallen man and then I think of the severe judgment one pronounces upon his brother that has fallen under temptation and my heart becomes sick. I see the iron in hearts, and think we should pray for hearts of flesh." Letter 16-1887
"The Lord wants His people to follow other methods than that of condemning wrong, even though the condemnation be just. He wants us to do something more than to hurl at our adversaries charges that only drive them further from the truth. The work which Christ came to do in our world was not to erect barriers and constantly thrust upon the people the fact that they were wrong." TC6, 122
‘There are many who try to correct the life of others by attacking what they consider are wrong habits. They go to those whom they think are in error, and point out their defects. They try to pick off the ornaments, or whatever seems offensive, but they do not seek to fasten the mind to the truth. Those who seek to correct others should present the attractions of Jesus. They should talk of His love and compassion, present His example and sacrifice, reveal His Spirit. Talk of Christ, and when the heart is converted, everything that is out of harmony with the Word of God will drop off." Evangelism 272
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Re: When is it wrong to make intercessory prayer for another - a look at 1 John 5:16
#45837
10/14/02 03:06 AM
10/14/02 03:06 AM
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SOP reader, thank you. That's a good reminder of what our focus should be.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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