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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46212
04/17/03 12:09 AM
04/17/03 12:09 AM
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You prayerfully tell me exactly turned you around in your thinking, with Bible texts and everything, and I will prayerfully do the same thing.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46213
04/18/03 03:07 AM
04/18/03 03:07 AM
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quote:
A thought just came to me. The spirit or the breath of the human returned to God as God intends to breathe that same breath or spirit back into man at his resurrection, whereas the breath or spirit of the animals return to the ground as God will not be resurrecting the animals at His second coming.
I’m sure you realize that this idea is just conjecture on your part with no scriptural support? However, let’s assume that your idea is correct. If that is the case then that would also mean that the “breath” of a person is individual containing factors or an essence that is specific to that person, right?
quote:
Also, what makes you think Strong's definition is correct? If a definition by man goes against Bible truth, then the definition by man, in this case Strong's, would be suspect.
I agree, but I don’t believe Strongs definition goes against literal scripture. It may seem to be contrary to concepts and ideas that are not literally stated in scripture, but not what is actually stated. In my opinion, it is consistent with what is written in scripture and the understanding of the people during bible times.
quote:
Have you honestly looked at every piece of Scripture on this subject? I did, and it turned my thinking and belief on this subject in the opposite direction.
Yes, every piece in scripture that I’m currently aware of. Why do you think I’m here having this discussion with you? To see if there is anything I’ve overlooked. I want to know and believe the truth, but I cannot and will not just ignore scripture what is contrary to the “death as a sleep” doctrine. I want to know truth, ALL the truth, not just my version of the truth and ignore those things that don’t support it.
Your post mentions valid points, but you ignore those texts that conflict with what you just stated. I cannot do that.
quote:
You prayerfully tell me exactly turned you around in your thinking, with Bible texts and everything, and I will prayerfully do the same thing.
I’m not sure what you mean here? But I think you are saying that you will pray for me to see the truth while I pray for you to see the truth, correct?
I welcome your prayers! I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I just can’t ignore the contrary scriptures and your explanations to those scriptures so far does not seem reasonable to me yet.
I would like to ask you a question; what is you definition of “hell”? Is it a literal place? Does it exist now or later? Etc.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46214
04/18/03 05:05 PM
04/18/03 05:05 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep in which He referred to death as a sleep. What is the definition of a dead person? Why didn't Jesus say that Lazarus was now in heaven praising the Lord? And if Lazarus was in heaven, then why did Christ bring him back from a wonderful heaven to this suffering planet quaranteed from the universe on account of the sickness of sin?
I have often thought about this too Daryl. If a person goes to Heaven when they die why would Jesus bring Lazarus back to this earth after he had been up there for what, 3 days? How mean that would be of Jesus to give Lazarus a glimplse of Heaven and then jerk him right back to this sinful world. Just does not make sense to me at all. I wonder why it is so important for people to put those who have died into heaven? If I had ever thought that we had a God in Heaven who did things like that I would never had given my life over to someone as mean as that. Just think about it:
A person dies...and they go to Heaven...now they all say that they, the dead person, knows what is happening down here on earth right? Well this person is soppose to be in a place where there is happiness all around..but then this person has to look down here and see that the child they have left is being brutally molested by whomever...you get the picture. How cruel of God to allow this person to be alive and knowing what is happening down here on earth. No there is no way I could ever believe this way...I did not even believe this way when I was not a SDA. It is just not logical at all.
I relize there are those special ones who are in Heaven now, the ones who were translated in the Bible times and those who were resurrected at Jesus death, and Moses, etc. These people were for a special reason..to be a witness to us in the Bible.
Or how about a God who has those who have died and gone to a burning hell. Know that is for sure a very very cruel God. Why would I want to even have anything to do with such a sadistic being? To put someone in an everlasting burning hell to be tormented day and night forever? Please....God is love. He is not going to put anyone in a buring hell to burn forever Yes, at the end of the 1000 yrs. it will happen. But they will burn only until burned up..not forever and forever as people like to teach.
Just like a loving God would not have us in Heaven looking down on all this saddness. No, a loving God has us "sleep" until He comes again to awaken those who have fallen asleep in Jesus, and will raise us up again to be with Him forever. What a very peaceful thought. If we do have to die before our Lord Jesus comes the Second time it is so very comforting to know that we will be just "sleeping"...not out there in the spirit world. I am so happy that we have a God in Heaven who loves us so much that He cares enough for me that He would not be such a cruel God. Amen ![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46215
04/18/03 06:42 PM
04/18/03 06:42 PM
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I believe the Bible wasn't written only for the theologian to wrestle out the truth contained therein, but it was written in such a way that even a child could search out and also find the truth contained within the Bible. I also believe the Bible interprets itself and gives its own definition. In the case of this particular study, this means that the Bible gives its own definition on what death is, and I accept the Bible's definition of death over Strong's definition, especially if it goes contrary to the Bible's own definition. With this in mind, and beginning in my next post, I am now going to look up every text that deals with death and comment on it here one post at a time. I hope others will join me in doing the same thing as many participants make lighter work. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46216
04/18/03 07:53 PM
04/18/03 07:53 PM
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In order to understand death, we need to understand life. We need to understand how we got here in the first place. Genesis 1 focused on the six days of creation in a general sense, more like an overview of creation. It said that man was created but it didn't say how until in Genesis 2 when it went over the creation of man in greater detail. quote:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
You notice that Genesis 1:27 grouped the creation of both male and female together in one lump whereas Adam was first created, and some time later, obviously still on the 6th day, Eve was created.
Genesis 2:7 deals specifically with how Adam was created.
quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The first thing God did was to form man out of the dust of the earth. To form implies an act of molding and fashioning into a form corresponding in design and appearance to the divine plan. It reminds me of the activity of the potter. Science confirms the fact that man is composed of materials derived from the ground, the elements of the earth. Decomposition of the human body after death bears witness to the same fact. How true that man was made of the "dust of the ground," and also that he shall "return to the earth" from where he was taken as you can read for yourself in Eccl. 12:7.
God then breathed His breath of life into man's nostrils. Man then became a living soul, a living life form, a living being. The agency by which the spark of life was transferred to Adam's body is said to be the "breath" of God. The same thought appears in Job 33:4 which says, "The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Imparted to man, the "breath" is equivalent to his life; it is life itself. At death there is no life, or "no breath left in him" as evidenced in I Kings 17:17 which says, "And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. This "breath of life" in man is no different than the "breath of life" in animals, for all receive their life from God as evidenced in Genesis 7:21,22 which says, "21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. It cannot therefore be the mind or the intelligence.
This is the first time the word living soul is used in the KJV of the Holy Bible. In fact, it is the first time the word soul is used in the Bible. Here is where I agree with Lobo in that the KJV has wrongfully used the word "soul." The more correct word here is "being." In other words, it should be read as, "and man became a living being" as rightfully stated in the ASV. The proper equation therefore is man formed from the dust of the ground + breath of life = a living being.
I believe this gives us a clear understanding of what constituted the creation of a living being in Genesis 2:7.
I am going to end this post here and allow for any comments from others before moving on.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46217
07/04/03 02:08 PM
07/04/03 02:08 PM
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I placed a slightly edited copy of Lobo's post relating to the state of the dead here. quote:
POSTED ORIGINALLY BY BOB PICKLE:
(It was Greek philosophy that gave us immortality of the soul and eternal torment.)
POSTED ORIGINALLY BY LOBO:
Bob, this is not an accurate statement. In the Jewish oral tradition, long before the rise of the Roman empire, they believed in conditional immortality of the soul. This believe is slightly different in that Israel believed that the soul can exist separately from the body but that this is conditional in that God grants this existence, it’s not based on some inherent quality that exists in the soul.
For example, Jews feel that the following text indicates that man’s soul will not die because nothing that God creates will ever cease to exist:
“14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. 15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account.” Ecc 3
Notice also that verse 15 seems to indicate that all things have already been in existence. In other words, our souls existed before our bodies were born. You may think this was some new-age idea, or a pagan Roman idea, but it actually is Jewish.
Here is another passage they use to support the doctrine of resurrection through reincarnation:
“7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.” Ecc 1
The SDA belief about death and the soul is very close, if not identical to, the Sadducees of Jesus day.
These were the two major Jewish views of thought at that time. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection (Mtt 22:23) or the existence of the soul after death. They did not believe these things because they did not support the Jewish oral tradition (law). The Pharisees, on the other had, believed in the resurrection, the conditional immortality of the soul, and the oral tradition. Many of them also believed in Jesus as the messiah (Acts 15:5).
Also, an interesting note, the Sadducees were considered by most mainstream Jews as apostates and most of their beliefs died out after the destruction of the temple in 70AD. All modern Jews descend from the Pharisees, or Hakamim as they call themselves, since they believe the term "Pharisee" was actually a term which was used for those Jews that were deemed to be "extremists".
.....I just think that we many times attribute Christian teachings that we don’t like or believe in to Greek or pagan origins when they actually originated from Israel.
The only thing I removed was where the ..... appears in the above quote that didn't affect the post whatsoever.
Now to place the relevant portion of Bob Pickle's post here:
quote:
POSTED ORIGINALLY BY BOB PICKLE:
RE: Jewish teachings. It has been my understanding that the Pharisees who believed in consciousness in death got that from Platonic philosophy.
Vol. 1 of Froom's Conditionalist Faith goes into the subject in depth. He cites intertestmental Jewish works that strayed from the old paths, and works that still taught the truth on the question. It seems that it was particularly the Jews in Alexandria that went astray.
The false concepts on death started penetrating Christianity later rather than early, as far as their writings indicate. It seems hard for me to imagine that these later Christian writers got their ideas from Jews rather than Greeks.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46218
07/08/03 09:14 PM
07/08/03 09:14 PM
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quote:
RE: Jewish teachings. It has been my understanding that the Pharisees who believed in consciousness in death got that from Platonic philosophy.
That may or may not be true, but that is not what Jews currently state.
quote:
The false concepts on death started penetrating Christianity later rather than early, as far as their writings indicate. It seems hard for me to imagine that these later Christian writers got their ideas from Jews rather than Greeks.
You may want to look at this from a scriptural point of view as well. Many like to rewrite history to support their own beliefs, but I feel scripture is the best historical document we have.
So if the concept of life after death was introduced to Israel during the Roman era, why would Israel know or understand that they could bring someone's soul back from the death long before Rome existed?
“8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." 9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?" 10 Saul swore to her by the LORD , "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this." 11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said. 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit [1] coming up out of the ground." 14 "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.” 1 Sam 28
Notice that it was a common understanding that spirits (souls) of dead people were not really gone. Evidentially, this was such a big problem that they had all the mediums expelled from the Jewish community before this time, vs 3.
So it must have been understood that spirits were not dead and could be brought back for Samuel to have expelled mediums from the community and for Saul to find one to bring Samuel back.
Another very interesting point of this story is that Samuel (while he was a dead spirit) supported God’s plan and told Saul what the Lord wanted him to hear. That means that it was not by the power of the devil that Samuel was a dead spirit. And we know you cannot serve both God and Satan at the same time (Matt 6:24). So Samuel being alive as a spirit was supported by the Lord.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46219
07/08/03 09:21 PM
07/08/03 09:21 PM
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Bob, if you read the story of Saul and Samuel again you will see that the dead Samuel deed indeed support what the Lord had been trying to tell Saul for sometime. In fact, God used Samuel to communicate this to Saul.
Scripture indicates in many places that someone cannot support God and support Satan at the same time. So you are left with these options to explain this story:
1. It was an evil angel or Satan impersonating Samuel that was working for God or supporting what He wanted done.
2. God actually raised Samuel to communicate to Saul
3. God had one of His angels impersonate Saul to deliver His message to him
4. It was actually Samuel’s spirit communicating to Saul
Unfortunately Bob, your option that and evil angel would be there doing God’s work is not feasible and is contrary to scripture.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46220
07/09/03 12:07 PM
07/09/03 12:07 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, Looks like from what Daryl wrote above, this is the wrong place for your post. If you move it over to that other thread, I'll move my response there as well. The idea that the dead aren't dead dates back to Eden, when Satan told Eve that she would not really die. It was a key concept underlying all pagan religions. And since the Israelites didn't eradicate all of that, it is no wonder that some in Israel were still consulting the "dead." The reason I said the "dead" is because of Num. 25:2; Ps. 106:28; and 1 Cor. 10:20. Since the "dead know not anything," then the "dead" are really demons in disguise, according to these three texts. Which is why God forbade people to talk to the "dead." Witches who work for Satan could not have the power to bring a prophet of God back from the dead. "Samuel" came up, not down from heaven. "Samuel" gave no hope in his rebuke. Why? Because the devil leads one on into sin, and then down the road goads one into despair. The message given came from beneath, not from above. http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm and http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm contain 411 verses that support the views of Luther, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Anabaptists, and many Anglicans on this topic.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46221
07/09/03 12:13 PM
07/09/03 12:13 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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To repeat from my last post, "Samuel" was an evil angel who was not doing God's work, for the reasons stated above. John Gill was a learned Baptist commentator, who believed that the dead are not dead. Even he thought "Samuel" was a demon. Here are his comments: quote:
Ver. 15. And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? &c.] This makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham?s bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men and devils to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:
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