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Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47002
10/31/03 06:00 PM
10/31/03 06:00 PM
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OP
Banned Member
Full Member
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
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Who are the Jews? That is a very important question for us to be asking -- especially since the nation of Irael today is a major factor in the issues facing the Middle East. The literal nation of Israel is a key component of the eschatoligical teachings of most Christian denominations. What we believe about Israel will determine how we interpret endtime events and more importantly, how we respond to them.
What we believe about Israel also determines what we believe about ourselves: How do we, as gentile Christians, fit into God's plan? Is God's law for us, or merely for the genetic posterity of Abraham? Are we a new nation of God, or fellow citizens with Israel?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47003
10/31/03 09:21 PM
10/31/03 09:21 PM
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quote:
Who are the Jews?
If you believe scripture and take it a face value and literal, that is a very easy question to answer.
Genesis 21
”12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
So we see that God counts Israel as starting from Isaac, not Abraham.
So in essence, Abraham was technically a Gentile because the Jewish race started at Isaac.
So when we read that Paul states gentiles are accepted as part of the kingdom of God through Abraham, we know that that is not Israel because Israel officially, per God, started from Isaac. This is also clear because the covenant with Abraham involved “many nations” (Gen 17:5). In contrast, the Mosaic covenant involved and was between God and Israel only (Ex 31:12-18).
So in a nutshell;
Gentiles = Abrahamic covenant
Israel = Mosaic Covenant
So how does this relate to the gospel?
Because the “promise” of salvation through faith comes from Abraham, and even Israel started with Isaac, Israel really has not automatic claim to this covenant. So neither Israel nor gentiles have any automatic claim to being saved.
So only through faith do both Jews and Gentiles become part of the kingdom or "children of promise".
“6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Rom 9
So both Jew and Gentile become “children of promise” by faith in Jesus.
Since neither group has claim to this promise, gentiles don’t become Jews and Jews don’t become Gentiles. This is a new group no connected or part of either the gentiles or Jews.
This is why it is technically incorrect to say that we are “spiritual Israel”. The reason would be that Israel started from Isaac, not Abraham.
So if we say we are Israel, that means that we are not part of Abraham but part of Isaac. And those under Isaac alone will not be saved. Only those under Abraham as “children of promise” will be saved.
So:
Under Isaac = literal Israel = Not Saved
Under Abraham = All Nations (Including Israel) = Saved
So by saying we are “Israel” means we are saying we don’t believe in Jesus, because all who believe in Jesus are children of promise under Abraham, not Isaac.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47004
10/31/03 11:30 PM
10/31/03 11:30 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Is that all the Bible says Lobo?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47005
10/31/03 11:34 PM
10/31/03 11:34 PM
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In a nutshell.
What concept have I left out?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47006
10/31/03 11:41 PM
10/31/03 11:41 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Not concept, but verses. Are there more verses that discuss this in more depth?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47007
10/31/03 11:47 PM
10/31/03 11:47 PM
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Well, I quoted verses for Israel being from Isaac, gentiles belonging to Abraham, and only Jews who believe in Jesus being under Abraham as well. So what concept are you missing scripture for?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47008
10/31/03 11:51 PM
10/31/03 11:51 PM
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Seeing that Dave created this topic, it will be interesting to hear from him again.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47009
10/31/03 11:51 PM
10/31/03 11:51 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Are there any scriptures at all that use Abraham, and Isaac to illustrate anything?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47010
11/01/03 12:00 AM
11/01/03 12:00 AM
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Will, you haven’t been paying attention, I quoted one for you already:
“6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Rom 9
HELLO?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47011
11/01/03 01:36 AM
11/01/03 01:36 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I'm paying attention just asking if that is all the Bible says. So if you didn;t get that.. I will make it in point format:
1. Are the verses you quoted all there is regarding Abraham,Isaac, and the children of Israel
2. Is that all the Bible mentions on this particular topic regarding the Children of Israel
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