SDA Fundamental Belief #2:

2. The Trinity: There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

SDA Fundamental Belief #4:

4.The Son: God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)


This thread is to discuss--from an Adventist perspective--the position of Jesus within the Godhead. What is meant by "Son" of God? Was there a time in the far reaches of eternity past when the Son did not exist as a person with an individuality distinct from the Father?

This topic is finding it's way into SDA dialogue more and more frequently and seems to be one which genders discord among brethren. What is the truth about the Divine Son of God?

[ December 16, 2005, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Dave Mullbock ]

"In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."
{DA 530.3}

Sorry, this...

quote:

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"In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."
{DA 530.3}

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...says nothing to the topic Dave has raised.

What about Jn 1:1b & Jn 1:14b regarding the Word of God as also begotten of God while being with God?

And Jn 5:19, and Phil 2:6 regarding submission to- and equality with God; with Col 2:9 Jesus as the (visible) bodily manifestation of divinity - the Godhead?

What does '"Son" of God' mean?

What if "begotten" has its plain meaning? Is this:

quote:

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Was there a time in the far reaches of eternity past when the Son did not exist as a person with an individuality distinct from the Father?

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perhaps the wrong question? Since begotten is a Biblical word - validly disputed, now? - didn't the Word of God come from God and exist before proceeding from the Father's breast (Jn 8:42) - which verse expresses God's Fatherhood of Jesus & is more likely not limited to Bethlehem?

But, Dave, how do you want to clarify the Sonship of Jesus if our beliefs which you've quoted, don't accept Jesus Sonship as literal? How do we avoid a dead-end discussion here of literal or metaphorical, with no room for both?

It seems that the quote that John provided implies -- from an Ellen White standpoint -- that Jesus did not derive His existence from the Father. Also, Micah 5:8 says that Jesus' goings forth have been "from everlasting" or "days of eternity". Also, referring to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 conveys the idea of self-existence.

If, however, we take the word "Son" in the absolute literal sense, we have no clear statement in the Bible of the Father bringing forth the Son outside of the context of the incarnation.

The DA 530 sentence makes Jesus' divinity unambiguous: it cannot be made to prove "underived life" means the Son is not begotten of the Father, since that is not the context - the context is his deity itself, and she never abandons Jesus as the begotten Son of God since before Bethlehem. In 8T 268 is a simple example of EGW placing the Son's begetting before Bethlehem: commenting on Heb 1:1-5 she writes

quote:

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God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to his Son.
Jesus said to the Jews: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work....The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise...."

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...That's Jn 5:19. She interprets Jesus as the literal, begotten Son of God before creation began, and Jesus, in Jn 5:19 was explaining his apprenticeship as Son of God - according to EGW. That she is placing the Son's begetting before creation is clear from her comments on Heb 1:1-5: "He has been made equal with the Father." Such did not happen after the incarnation.

His equality is 'first' stated in Patriarchs and Prophets in the story of Lucifer's fall, where the Father pronounced his Son's obvious equality in the presence of all the angels, for Lucifer's sake.

What of 'my' texts from earlier? And Jn 5:26 I didn't include, so it's coming in here. There is Scripture for Jesus' begottenness being before Bethelehem - we only teach post Bethlehem now because of interpreting it differently. Did EGW change her interpretation? - doesn't look like she did, does it...

[ December 19, 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]

I'd have to say, that is a very convincing quote. I'll have to take another look at the ones that refer to his self-existence.

Not that you are saying otherwise, but I don't think that such a begotten status would necessarily lessen His dignity as being God in the fullest and highest sense, which is what some in our denomination are saying.

Yes, Jesus' begotten Sonship doesn't lessen his divine dignity at all: shouldn't it be the basis of his equality with God? Alleging a lessened dignity is a modern phenomenon, isn't it, brought on by our scholars?

Jn 5:26 established self-existence for the Son of God by his own definition, doesn't it? If the Son's self-existence depends on not being begotten, then tritheism is unavoidable: tritheism is supposed to be avoided (acc. to the Handbook of SDA Theology) by the Godhead's Three Person's common purpose of creation and redemption making them 'unified' and so 'one God'. Sadly that's poor logic, as at least orthodox trinitarianism insists by accepting that the Son of God was only begotten before creation began....But that's adding to your topic, so we can come back to that unless you're already happy with my point.

I'll post later with some more EGW quotes, as I expect you will. What of those Bible texts?...

Actually, what you have added is pertinent. The main issue I take with people is that most of the anti-trinitarian SDA's try to argue that Jesus' begotten status only makes Him divine and not God in the fullest sense. Still, I will have to look more into it.

One text I came upon last night on the full divinity of the Son was at the end of Acts Ch. 7 where it says that Stephen called upon God saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit".

Well ... I don't know about all the egw quotes although I should!

What I do know is that God calls Jesus his Son and if the relationship is anything other than a literal relationship does it not bring into question everything else that he has told us?

So how would you reconcile the previous quote on the Sonship of Jesus with these:

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by him as his right. This was no robbery of God.--The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906, p. 8. {7ABC 440.3}

In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--The Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {7ABC 440.4}

Here Christ shows them that, although they might reckon His life to be less than fifty years, yet His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures.--The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899. {7ABC 440.5}

From all eternity Christ was united with the Father, and when He took upon Himself human nature, He was still one with God.--The Signs of the Times, Aug. 2, 1905, p. 10.