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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48245
03/13/06 03:31 PM
03/13/06 03:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Originally quoted by Tom quote:
-- This is the at-one-ment; this is why He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, that He might do that for us by breaking down all those things which separate hearts from hearts, both human and divine.
Notwishstanding this, we did esteem Him striken smitten of God, and afflicted. That was what we thought about it. We said, God is doing all this; God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice. The Christian idea of sacrifice is this. Let us not the contrast. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (GCB 1897, Fifield)
I have to disagree with our brother Fifield on two counts, at least. "Esteeming" the suffering servant punished by God isn't as Fifield has eloquently put it - that we think it is punishment when it isn't; rather Isaiah's "esteeming" is the perception at Golgotha that Jesus deserved it!!
This part quote:
We said, God is doing all this; God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice.
is also wrong, in that the pagan notion of sacrifice excluded divine wrath, and pagan sacrifice isn't offered by the h e a t h e n diety but by the worshipper!
Obedience and disobedience to God's law is the most obvious lesson in the Bible: the result of sinning is death (Rom 6:23), and Jesus' death on our behalf was primarily to save us all from that death - in the name of love. Love was the motivation, dying our death was the need.
That you disregard that need brings into question what you regard separates us from God: after all, since our God is a consuming fire, it's not just a misunderstanding between man and God about God's character.
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48246
03/13/06 03:47 PM
03/13/06 03:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I agree with your statement here...BUT, so would have FRED WRIGHT. His misconception of the character of God, causes him to misrepresent God's character and how God deals with humans.
Well so might Hitler and Satan. That's not at all relevant. Truth is truth, regardless of the author. If even the devil says something that's true, it's still true.
If you're worried about my having been influenced by Fred Wright, my ideas are my own. John hasn't read Fred's book, I don't think, and he's in harmony with the ideas I've been presenting. I can't think of any ideas I have now that I didn't have before reading Fred's book. I like the way he lays out principles and illustrations, but I've been studying these things for many years, several decades, and didn't read Fred's book until recently. So this is a non-issue; a red herring. We can talk about Fred on the other topic you created for that purpose.
Allow me to repeat my question:
quote:
If you look at Ellen White's writings, you will see that she presents the idea over and over again that Satan's means of fighting the Great Controversy is to misrepresent God's character as arbitrary, severe, harsh and cruel; as not having our best interests at heart. Given this is Satan's goal, we might ask just how it is that he goes about doing this.
Has Satan been successful in his goal? If so, how?
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48247
03/13/06 03:53 PM
03/13/06 03:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Obedience and disobedience to God's law is the most obvious lesson in the Bible: the result of sinning is death (Rom 6:23), and Jesus' death on our behalf was primarily to save us all from that death - in the name of love. Love was the motivation, dying our death was the need.
I agree with this. Well I guess not quite. It (Christ's death) was primarily to win the Great Controversy and secure eternally the universe. But certainly saving us from death was a primary purpose for Christ's death.
quote:
That you disregard that need brings into question what you regard separates us from God: after all, since our God is a consuming fire, it's not just a misunderstanding between man and God about God's character.
I'm not disregarding the need you bring out. As I stated, I agree with what you wrote in the first paragraph.
This explains the separation:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. (DA 764)
Where I disagree with your perspective is that the problems we have are not legal ones, but ones having to do with mind, heart and character.
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48248
03/14/06 04:31 AM
03/14/06 04:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
So what is the character of God?
The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character. The character of God is exactly what we see when we look at Christ. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48249
03/14/06 04:33 AM
03/14/06 04:33 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
If you wish to understand the character of God you have to do it by proxy since no one has seen God at any time. The easiest way to understand the character of God is to understand the character of man and the rest of Creation. He cannot be worst than the best humans can be and are.
This is certainly true. The first sentence sounds like John 1:18:
quote:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.(CEV)
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48250
03/13/06 08:46 PM
03/13/06 08:46 PM
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Don't want you to think I'm putting you off...I'm not...and will back soon as I can...Sorry for the delay! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48251
03/13/06 09:57 PM
03/13/06 09:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Fifield: We said, God is doing all this; God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice.
Colin: [this] is also wrong, in that the pagan notion of sacrifice excluded divine wrath, and pagan sacrifice isn't offered by the h e a t h e n diety but by the worshipper!
This quote doesn't address who's making the sacrifice, but the purpose of the sacrifice. Fifield correctly identified the pagan concept of sacrifice, which is that a sacrifice is being made to appease God's wrath. Note: "God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off."
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48252
03/14/06 12:47 AM
03/14/06 12:47 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Fifield: We said, God is doing all this; God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice.
Colin: [this] is also wrong, in that the pagan notion of sacrifice excluded divine wrath, and pagan sacrifice isn't offered by the h e a t h e n diety but by the worshipper!
This quote doesn't address who's making the sacrifice, but the purpose of the sacrifice. Fifield correctly identified the pagan concept of sacrifice, which is that a sacrifice is being made to appease God's wrath. Note: "God is killing Him, punishing Him, to satisfy His wrath, in order to let us off."
Do you understand propitiation as separate to expiation? It's not the ongoing debate out there that I'm concerned about, but that some modern Bible translations (e.g. RSV) use expiation while the rest use propitiation. Propitiation involves Christ/God appeasing God's wrath against sin; expiation involves efforts to appease a diety who has no wrath against sin. quote:
The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction - specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them. (from gotquestions.org)
Rom 5:9 has us being saved from God's wrath. Fifield was wrong. Pagan sacrifice doesn't appease divine wrath.
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48253
03/14/06 04:25 AM
03/14/06 04:25 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction - specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them.
The only reason it says "specifically towards God" is because of the theory you are asserting. You can't prove something is true by assuming it's true. That's just arguing in circles.
The second sentence is true. Propitiation is an offering made to bring about a reconciliation. The error is in confusing who the party is that needs to be reconciled.
Allow me to provide an illustration. Some time ago I was dating a woman. The two of us were at a party. I paid some attention to another friend, a female friend (married) at the party. My girl friend became jealous, and made it clear that she was upset at me.
I was totally innocent in this. My conscience was clear. However, I could see my girlfriend was upset, and I didn't want her to stay that way. So I thought about what I could do.
I decided to take a day off work. Without warning here, I took the day off and drove 3 hours or so to visit her. When I arrived, she didn't see me come. I could see her head hanging down. She was still upset.
When she saw me, her face lit up. She displayed a mixture of joy and surprise. We were reconciled! (I love this illustration; brings back happy memories).
This is an illustration of how God propitiated us with the gift of His Son. We were the ones who were unreasonably upset; we were the ones who needed to be reconciled. God's feelings towards us have never changed. He so loved us He gave us His Son.
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Re: Is The Character of God Being Misrepresented?
#48254
03/14/06 01:46 PM
03/14/06 01:46 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The opinion that Jesus destroys unsaved sinners by ceasing to hold in check the inevitable results of sinning is, in my opinion, false and dangerous. Either way, though, Jesus is directly responsible for destroying them. Whether He causes or allows it to happen doesn't change the fact that He is responsible.
The idea, however, that He is too loving to cause the death of anyone is foreign to truth. The idea that it contradicts His character to cause, rather than merely allow, the punishment and destruction of unsaved sinners is false and dangerous. Why? It contradicts the truth. It ascribes to something else the authority of God.
To allow something else to receive the credit that alone belongs to God is to jeopardize the security of the universe. If Jesus is not the one responsible for defeating sin and death, if something else wins the great controversy, then we are no better off than at the beginning of the great controversy.
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