Tom, do you agree that instant death, not years of gradually dying, was what Jesus meant when He said - In the day ...? If so, then we are in agreement. Period. No hidden agenda.

You still haven't explained why you believe Jesus and the Father thrice discussed whether or not to implement the plan of salvation. If it was already implemented, why did they have to discuss it three times?

MM, I've spoken about this in great detail in the past. It clearly brings out the faultiness of your views that the future is fixed.

The short answer is that the plan had been discussed, but until it was needed it was only a potential plan. When man sin, then came the time to discuss whether the plan should be placed into operation.

The plan involved the possibility that Christ could be lost forever, which is why God was reticent to allow Christ to go through with it. There was great risk involved. This is why is was a struggle for God.

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Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. (EW 127)

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Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)

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Faultiness of my views? Come on, Tom, not more verbal abuse. You continue to post comments that are insulting and impertinent. Why? Such remarks are unnecessary. They do nothing, absolutely nothing, to help us study together.

Please, Tom, please stop saying things that are rude and offensive. Just speak the truth in love – without the inflammatory barbs. Thank you. Jesus never resorted to wounding people that way, right? Should you?

I believe the plan of salvation was implemented, was put into operation, after Adam sinned. You do not. I believe something else was at work that allowed Adam and Eve to exist in a state of sin until the decision was made to implement the plan of salvation. You do not.

I believe Jesus knew all along that He would be successful on the cross, that He never once doubted it. You do not. I believe the idea that God risked failure and eternal loss means something other than Jesus did not know for sure in advance that He would succeed on the cross. You do not.

You believe you are right, and that I am wrong. As of now, that's how things stand.

In response to the original post that started this thread I posted the following comments:

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
I believe the pendulum has swung the other way. The picture people are painting of God nowadays is one that portrays Him as too kind and loving to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. It insists that God has never punished or destroyed anyone, that He merely ceased holding back the inevitable results of sin and sinning. I believe this idea is just as dangerous as the other end of the pendulum.

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Is the character of God being misrepresented by people who believe God merely allows things to happen rather than also, at times, causing them to happen or commanding holy angels to make them happen? I believe it does. why? Because I think it contradicts the truth as revealed in the Bible and the SOP. Here's an insight this view clearly contradicts:

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

MM, two points. First of all, to assert that God's character is misrepresented because it's contrary to some idea you have which you think is truth doesn't really address the question as to how it's misrepresented. That is, in what way is God's character misrepresented if:
a)God protects us from the ill which sin causes
b)God withdraws His protection

as opposed to
a)The ills we suffer are due to God's direct action.

It would appear to me that this makes God's character look worse, not better.

I would also ask you where in Christ's life we see the misrepresentation you think you see. Since the Spirit of Prophecy tells us "all" that we can know about God was revealed in the life of Christ, then we should be able to find such a revelation there. I've asked you this many times, but you've never answered it, I don't think. That's a big hole in the point of view you are representing, I think.

If all that man needs to know or can know of God was revealed in Christ, then we should be able to find whatever character trait we think we see in God there. So if you think it's a trait of God's character to at times directly afflict us with sickness or death, then if all that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (during His earthly life), then we should see that there. That makes sense, doesn't it?

Regarding the GC quote, taking a single sentence of out of context is not much of an argument. Here's what she writes immediately preceeding the sentence you quoted:

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When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. (GC 614)

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Notice she points out:
a)The restraint upon the wicked is removed.
b)Satan has control of the impenitent
c)God's longsuffering has ended
d)Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one
e)Satan plunges the world into a time of trouble
f)The angelse cease to hold back the winds of strife.

If you look at the destruction of Jerusalem, you will see that these are the very same principles she outlines there.

Immediately after the sentence you plucked out of context we read the following:

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Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who
have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution.

When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. (GC 614)

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We note the following:
a)Satan excites still greater hatred and persecution against those who honor God.
b)God's presence is withdrawn from those who think they are following God as they attack God's true followers.
c)The Spirit of God will be finally withdrawn.

If you read through the context of the single sentence you took, you will see that there is nothing at all which supports your point of view that God causes the plagues in any other way than withdrawing His protection. He withdraws His Spirit, and commands the angels to cease holding back the winds of strife.

Regarding the plauges, EGW also wrote:

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I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

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From this we see regarding the plagues:
a)They do not come directly from God
b)The wicked place themselves beyond God's protection
c)God does not commission His angels to protect the wicked against Satan's attacks against them.
d)Satan comes down with great wrath.

Ok, so if the single sentence you plucked out of context agrees with how you understand it, you should be able to:

a)Find some example in Christ's life which agrees with your point of view
b)Reconcile it with the context, and the principles EGW brings to the forefront in these quotes I've provided, as well as other places (like the Destruction of Jerusalem chapter, which brings out these same points).

I doubt you'll try to do either of these things.

Sorry MM. I should have written "what I perceive to be your faulty view." It's a bit exasperating to write many, many pages regarding a topic, and you act as if I've never responded to a given question which you've already asked many times in the past. It's like I never wrote anything. It makes me wonder if you've read what I've written.

I believe the plan of salvation was implemented, was put into operation, after Adam sinned. You do not.

"As soon as their was sin, there was a Savior." (DA 21) I've quoted this several times. You may continue to believe it was implemented after, and I will continue to agree with Ellen White's statement. Her statement also agrees with Scripture and common sense. We only live by the grace of God. That's a truth which is communicated in dozens of different ways in both Scripture and inspiration. For example:

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Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. But the sinless One has taken our place; though undeserving, He has borne our iniquity. (MB 116)

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If Adam and Eve had to bear their own guilt, it would have crushed them. Christ had to bear their guilt from the moment they sinned, just like He has to bear our guilt.

I believe something else was at work that allowed Adam and Eve to exist in a state of sin until the decision was made to implement the plan of salvation. You do not.

"Something else." What would that be? There's one thing that allows us to live even though we are sinners, and that's the grace of God.

I believe Jesus knew all along that He would be successful on the cross, that He never once doubted it. You do not. I believe the idea that God risked failure and eternal loss means something other than Jesus did not know for sure in advance that He would succeed on the cross. You do not.

Not only did God risk failure and eternal loss, Christ did as well:

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Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul. (COL 196)

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I'd be curious how we can remember that Christ risked all while simultaneously there was no chance He could fail.

Tom, I agree that Jesus demonstated, while here, the truth regarding the character of God. But Jesus has been doing that since the beginning of the GC. When we take into consideration the entire testimony of Jesus we have a complete picture of God. In the OT Jesus demonstrated certain traits more clearly than He did in the NT. I realize you disagree with this insight.

The GC quote I posted above is not one sentence divorced from its context. Instead, it is an entire paragraph. Nothing that she wrote before or after it changes the point she clearly made, namely, Jesus has employed holy angels and evil angels to work death and destruction on earth, and that He will give both permission to do things that account for the seven last plagues. It is the Bible that describes holy angels pouring out the vials. See Revelation 16.

TE - It makes me wonder if you've read what I've written.

MM - I´m sorry you feel that way. I do read what you post, it's just that I don't always agree with you.

TE - You may continue to believe it was implemented after, and I will continue to agree with Ellen White's statement.

MM - She also says that the decision to implement the plan of salvation was made after they sinned, which tells me that they, especially Eve, were in a state of sin for awhile before the plan was implemented. I realize you do not agree.

TE - "Something else." What would that be? There's one thing that allows us to live even though we are sinners, and that's the grace of God.

MM - I agree. God extended a form of grace that enabled them to exist for a time in a state of sin without dying immediately.

TE - I'd be curious how we can remember that Christ risked all while simultaneously there was no chance He could fail.

MM - Me to. But that's exactly what the inspired record says. Jesus knew He would succeed on the cross. That is clear. It also says a form of risk was involved. Just exactly what that means is not clear, but one thing is clear - it cannot mean that Jesus did not know He would succeed on the cross.

Tom, I agree that Jesus demonstated, while here, the truth regarding the character of God. But Jesus has been doing that since the beginning of the GC.

The character of God was misunderstood by both man and angels. That's why Christ came in human flesh, to clear up the misunderstandings. We shouldn't throw away the new wine to keep the old. Christ came for a purpose, which the Spirit of Prophesy outlines here. I was going to quote something, but I guess their still down. Let's see if I have it elsewhere:

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the earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He Who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, 'with healing in His wings.' Malachi 4:2.(DA 22)

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Good, I did have it. I get the quotes from the online egw site, so feel kind of handicapped without it. At any rate, notice that she points out that the earth was full of misapprehension of God (i.e. misunderstanding). To clarify, God sent His Son. Even holy angels did not understand the truth until the cross.

When we take into consideration the entire testimony of Jesus we have a complete picture of God.

No, this is not what the Spirit of Prophecy tell us, which is:

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All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." (8T 286)

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Please notice the word "all." I highlighted it to make it stand out. That little word means that *everything* it is possible for us to know about God was revealed during Christ's lifetime here with us in the flesh. This was the very purpose of His mission; to reveal God.

It's a sad thing if one insists on throwing this revelation away, to go outside of it, to try to "know" something about God which cannot be known.

In the OT Jesus demonstrated certain traits more clearly than He did in the NT. I realize you disagree with this insight.

Not I, but Sister White. I do agree with her, however.

The GC quote I posted above is not one sentence divorced from its context. Instead, it is an entire paragraph. Nothing that she wrote before or after it changes the point she clearly made, namely, Jesus has employed holy angels and evil angels to work death and destruction on earth, and that He will give both permission to do things that account for the seven last plagues. It is the Bible that describes holy angels pouring out the vials. See Revelation 16.

I quoted what she wrote before and after. I also quoted other things she wrote, where she is clear that the plagues spoken of in Revelation come from God's withdrawing His Spirit. 14MR 3, GC chapter 1, and the paragraphs immediately preceeding and following the sentence you pulled out all make this clear.

It is true the Bible describes holy angels pouring out the vials, and a study of Scripture will help us to correctly understand the meaning. To understand the meaning of any Scripture it is necessary to study it according to the truth revealed at the cross (EGW says this, btw, although the principle can be seen from Scripture).

Christ revealed a God who was not arbitrary or cruel, as the adversary has portrayed Him to be. In GC 35 we are told that destruction is often understand as a decree of God, and that this is how the deceiver hides his work.

Remember it has been the desire of the adversary to misrepresent God from the very beginning. The whole Great Controversy is about the truth of God's character. Christ came to reveal the truth.

The truth is that God is just like Jesus revealed Him to be. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.

TE - It makes me wonder if you've read what I've written.

MM - I´m sorry you feel that way. I do read what you post, it's just that I don't always agree with you.

That's not the problem. Many people disagree with me. The problem is you ask a question as if you've never asked it before, when you've already asked it many times and I've answered it many times. If you want to reask a quesiton for clarification, that's fine, but please present the question in that way.

TE - You may continue to believe it was implemented after, and I will continue to agree with Ellen White's statement.

MM - She also says that the decision to implement the plan of salvation was made after they sinned,

No, she doesn't say this. First of all, this would contradict her saying, "As soon as sin there was a Savior." She doesn't contradict herself. Secondly, it wouldn't be possible, because as soon as Adam sinned, he needed a Savior, whether she said so or not. Adam (and we) only live by the grace of God. The fact that we live, although we are sinners, demonstrates that God's grace is active in our behalf.

Another way of seeing this is from her statement that if we had to bear the guilt of our sin it would crush us. Adam would have been crushed had he had to bear the guilt of his sin, so Christ immediately began bearing it for him.

which tells me that they, especially Eve, were in a state of sin for awhile before the plan was implemented. I realize you do not agree.

Yes, I disagree. Your idea here makes no sense to me, for the reasons I've explained. I haven't seen you present any evidence for your view. I did present evidence for mine, which you have not dealt with, as far as I can determine.

TE - "Something else." What would that be? There's one thing that allows us to live even though we are sinners, and that's the grace of God.

MM - I agree. God extended a form of grace that enabled them to exist for a time in a state of sin without dying immediately.

And us as well. The form of grace God extended is the same for them as for us. It was the gift of Jesus Christ which allowed them to live, the same as us. FW 21, 22 is another place which clearly explains this. It says something like, "the reason the race was not immediately annhiliated was because God so loved the world that He gave His Son."

TE - I'd be curious how we can remember that Christ risked all while simultaneously there was no chance He could fail.

MM - Me too. But that's exactly what the inspired record says. Jesus knew He would succeed on the cross. That is clear. It also says a form of risk was involved. Just exactly what that means is not clear, but one thing is clear - it cannot mean that Jesus did not know He would succeed on the cross.

When inspiration speaks of Jesus "knowing" He would succeed, He was speaking on the basis of faith. As was God when He inspired the prophets to write of His success. Faith counts things that do not exist as if they did. This does not counterman risk. It is not necessary that we hold to a position which is logically impossible.