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What was finished at the cross?
#48324
03/15/06 06:09 PM
03/15/06 06:09 PM
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OP
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It just dawned on me that this is the really issue behind the other topic I just opened (on whether Christ defeated sin and death on the cross).
What was finished at the cross?
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48325
03/16/06 04:15 AM
03/16/06 04:15 AM
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Ontario
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- Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
- Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
- Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48326
03/16/06 04:47 AM
03/16/06 04:47 AM
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OP
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quote:
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col. 1:20, 21)
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48327
03/16/06 12:56 PM
03/16/06 12:56 PM
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Muncie, IN
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What makes us think Paul is the final authority on the gospel. The poor brother was trying his best to understand what was involved.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48328
03/16/06 01:01 PM
03/16/06 01:01 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Augusta, KY
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If Paul meant to say that we have been reconciled to Jesus automatically, then why would he also state:
"We pray ye in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20)
Ellen White is more emphatic:
"They (people choosing to go their own way) are NOT reconciled to God, neither can be, until self is crucified and Christ lives in the heart by faith." (5 Testimonies, page 46)
"Those who do not believe in Christ are NOT reconciled to God..." (YI 11/29/1894)
There is a lot of talk recently within the SDA church that Jesus effectively saved all mankind at the cross. This is not found in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. "Provision" was made to all the cross, Jesus did die for the sins of all mankind, but it is not until a decision is made for Christ that that provision becomes effective in that person's life.
"The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST WOULD HAVE BEEN TO NO AVAIL". (Desire of Ages, page 671)
The sacrifice of Christ shed the blood necessary for the atonement, but without the sprinking of that blood, that is the intercession of that blood, no one will be saved. This is clearly taught in Leviticus where God repeatedly states that AFTER the sacrifice, it is the priest that makes the atonement by applying the blood. The shed blood did nothing in itself until it was brought into the sanctuary.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48329
03/17/06 04:59 AM
03/17/06 04:59 AM
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SDA
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When Jesus cried, It is finished, He meant that the cup was empty. He finished drinking the cup of woe and trembling. The "it" referred to the cup. That's what Jesus "finished" on the cross. He did not finish saving us on the cross. What He did on the cross made it possible for Him to offer us justification and sanctification and glorification as our Mediator in the heavenly sanctuary.
Romans
4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 Corinthians
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
He was raised for our justification. It was not accomplished or finished on the cross.
DA 758
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. {DA 758.2}
How did the blood of Jesus redeem angels and unfallen beings?
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48330
03/16/06 08:28 PM
03/16/06 08:28 PM
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OP
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Question 1: How did the blood of Jesus redeem angels and unfallen beings? quote:
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col. 1:20, 21)
Question 2: If Paul meant to say that we have been reconciled to Jesus automatically, then why would he also state:
"We pray ye in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20)
quote:
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col. 1:20, 21)
The blood redeemed the universe by reconciling it to God. The peace was made by revealing God's character in contrast to the the character of the adversary. The chapter "It Is Finished" from "The Desire of Ages" discusses this in detail.
The reconciliation that Paul spoke of did not happen automatically, at least not individually, because it involves the reconciliation of alienated minds. We were enemies in our minds. But when we see the truth revealed by the cross, we are reconciled to God. The following brings this out well:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48331
03/16/06 08:34 PM
03/16/06 08:34 PM
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OP
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quote:
There is a lot of talk recently within the SDA church that Jesus effectively saved all mankind at the cross. This is not found in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy.
Scripture presents Christ as the Savior of the world. John 4 says this (maybe vs. 42; I'm sure it's in John 4 somewhere) and 1 John also says it.
If Christ is the Savior of the world, it stands to reason He saved the world. Hence it is no surprise to find the following in the Spirit of Prophecy:
quote:
The deceiver presented himself as an angel of light, but Christ withstood his temptations. He redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall, and saved the world. (God's Amazing Grace 42)
So the teaching is found in both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. However it should be understood that individual salvation is not what either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy is discussing here.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48332
03/16/06 08:48 PM
03/16/06 08:48 PM
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Muncie, IN
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Tom, thanks for setting the record straight for Bill.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48333
03/17/06 03:26 AM
03/17/06 03:26 AM
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Satan sinned, repeatedly, and was offered pardon on the condition of repentance and submission. quote:
(Satan) was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. (4SP 319)
There is no mention of Christ’s having to die for him. Yet for us there is no pardon without the shedding of blood. Why not? Why the difference? Why could God forgive Satan without the shedding of blood, but not forgive us?
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761)
Bear in mind that this chapter, “It Is Finished,” was written to explain the purpose of Christ’s death on the cross.
Peter expresses the same thought expressed above:
quote:
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)
The following quote discusses the purpose of Christ’s mission:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
A little thought will show that if the whole purpose of Christ’s mission was to reveal God to us, then if Christ’s death was a part of Christs’ mission, it follows that the purpose of Christ’s death was to reveal God.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48334
03/17/06 05:53 PM
03/17/06 05:53 PM
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SDA
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Tom, the fact God was willing to reinstate Lucifer without the shedding of blood is evidence that he hadn't sinned. It would have been impossible for God to reinstate Lucifer if he had sinned without the shedding of blood. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Lucifer "sinned" and that God was willing to reinstate him without the shedding of blood. Instead, it clearly says that the moment Lucifer passed the point of no return he was cast out of heaven. By the time he sinned there was no hope for him.
Also, Jesus did not save everyone in heaven with eternal life. Instead, He earned the right to offer everyone pardon and eternal life in heaven when He cried, It is finished. When He finsihed drinking the cup of trembling the entire universe was made eternally secure against a future rebellion because Jesus demonstrated beyond doubt that obeying the law of God is not only possible but that it is the only way to perpetuate peace and happiness.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48335
03/17/06 07:46 PM
03/17/06 07:46 PM
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MM,
Jesus said that satan was a murder and a liar from the beginning. The beginning of what? Is He saying he was a murder and liar from the very start i.e. since he was created? Regardless of which way, Jesus said he sinned.
God Bless,
Will
P.S. need to remember my password
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48336
03/17/06 10:48 PM
03/17/06 10:48 PM
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OP
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the fact God was willing to reinstate Lucifer without the shedding of blood is evidence that he hadn't sinned.
That Satan sinned is clear by two facts. First of all, just consider what he was doing. He was misrepresenting God's character for the purpose of winning converts to his cause. He did this purposefully and for a long time.
The second fact is that God offered him pardon. Pardon means forgiveness from sin. There's no need for pardon if there's no sin.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48337
03/17/06 10:52 PM
03/17/06 10:52 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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quote:
When He finished drinking the cup of trembling the entire universe was made eternally secure against a future rebellion because Jesus demonstrated beyond doubt that obeying the law of God is not only possible but that it is the only way to perpetuate peace and happiness.
What you're saying here doesn't really follow, does it? It's true that Christ perfectly kept the law and showed that was possible, but that's what one thinks of primarily, or even secondarily, when one considers Christ's drinking the cup as you put it. One thinks of His death on the cross, doesn't one? So securing the universe has to do with something else, right?
Actually if you look at "It Is Finished" from the Desire of Ages, it spells out right there what it was the cross revealed, and what that revelation accomplished.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48338
03/18/06 03:39 PM
03/18/06 03:39 PM
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SDA
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Will, do you agree with Tom that Jesus was willing to reinstate Lucifer without the shedding of blood after he sinned?
Tom, please post one quote where it plainly says, without having to rely on private interpretation, that Jesus was willing to reinstate Lucifer without shedding blood after he sinned? Insisting that this or that quote implies it is not the same thing as plainly saying it, that is, that Lucifer "sinned".
Also, Jesus did not finish justifying and saving every human being on the cross. What He did finish on the cross was 1) earning the right to own our sins and second death, and 2) earning the right to pardon and save us if and when we choose to consent and cooperate with the heavenly agencies employed for our salvation, and 3) earning the right to transfer our sins and second death upon Satan in the lake of fire.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48339
03/18/06 07:58 PM
03/18/06 07:58 PM
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BC, Canada
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Hi MM, Well actually I dont find it to be a Biblically sound principle to reinstate lucifer after he sinned. Throughout the Bible a lamb, a sacrifice, the sprinlking of the blood on the MHP, in the blood islife, all these object lessons illustrate what had to be done as a result of sin. Hebrews 9:22 quote:
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48340
03/19/06 12:51 AM
03/19/06 12:51 AM
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Will, thank you. I'm glad we agree.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48341
03/19/06 03:22 AM
03/19/06 03:22 AM
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OP
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quote:
Also, Jesus did not finish justifying and saving every human being on the cross. What He did finish on the cross was 1) earning the right to own our sins and second death, and 2) earning the right to pardon and save us if and when we choose to consent and cooperate with the heavenly agencies employed for our salvation, and 3) earning the right to transfer our sins and second death upon Satan in the lake of fire.
MM: where's one quote from inspiration that says any of these things?
That Satan sinned is clear from the fact that God offered to pardon him. Also the description of what he did, in both 4SP and Patriarchs and Prophets makes it clear that Satan was sinning, if one has any concept at all about what sin is.
Finally, it is you, not I, that need to come up with a quote that presents the idea that Christ would have had to die to reinstate Satan. I came up with a quote which stated all that was necessary: that Satan repent and submit. If you think something beyond that was necessary, then produce a quote.
As to why the sacrifice of Christ was necessary for man, but not for Satan, the explanation is given here:
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)
Satan knew the character of God, so the sacifice of Christ would not have accomplished anything. However, for man, there was hope in knowing the height and depth of God's love. By beholding God's character, man could be drawn back to God.
This agrees with what Peter said:
quote:
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)
Also there's Ellen White's statement:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
If the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God, and Christ's death was a part of His mission, a little thought will show that the purpose of Christ's death was to reveal God.
If you read through the chapter "It Is Finished," which was written for the purpose of explaining what Christ's death accomplished, you won't find any of the things you mentioned there. However you will find the things I've mentioned there (I'm quoting from that chapter) as well as some other things I've not brought up it.
The same thing can be said in Scripture as well. Here's what Waggoner writes:
quote:
A Propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.
It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased.0 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death." Col. 1:21, 22. (Waggoner on Romans, chapter 3)
Waggoner is right. This idea does not exist in Scripture.
Nor does it exist in the Spirit of Prophecy. I researched how she uses the word "propitiation" and discovered that she never applies it to God. Not once. Similarly she never once speaks of God's wrath being appeased by Christ's sacrifice. I'm not aware of it existing at all any SDA works until the last half of the 20th century. I wish I had the opportunity to explore this more deeply, but I can say for sure that the idea is not in the Spirit of Prophecy.
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48342
03/20/06 04:48 AM
03/20/06 04:48 AM
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TE - That Satan sinned is clear from the fact that God offered to pardon him. Also the description of what he did, in both 4SP and Patriarchs and Prophets makes it clear that Satan was sinning, if one has any concept at all about what sin is.
MM – She never used the word “sin” or “sinned”, did she? Are you putting words in her mouth? If not, then please post one quote where she says Lucifer “sinned” and that Jesus was willing to reinstate him without the shedding of blood.
TE - Finally, it is you, not I, that need to come up with a quote that presents the idea that Christ would have had to die to reinstate Satan. I came up with a quote which stated all that was necessary: that Satan repent and submit. If you think something beyond that was necessary, then produce a quote.
MM – Will did exactly that. He posted Hebrews 9:22 – “"Without shedding of blood is no remission ." Ellen White never said Jesus would have pardoned Lucifer’s “sin” without the shedding of blood. That’s what you are concluding because she used the word “pardon”.
There is more to the shedding of blood than simply demonstrating the fact that God is unselfish and self-sacrificing. Of course, that is very important to know and believe. without it we would be lost. But death is also the only way to eliminate the record and memory of sinning and the existence of sinners.
Jesus does this for us. He earned the right, on the cross, to own our sin and second death. He also earned the right to transfer them to Satan in the lake of fire at the end of time. Our record and memory of sinning will be eliminated with Satan in the lake of fire.
If Jesus had not lived and died the perfect life and death He would not have earned the right to own our sin and second death, in which case Adam and Eve would have been destroyed immediately and none of us would have been born. Do you agree?
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Re: What was finished at the cross?
#48343
03/19/06 07:03 PM
03/19/06 07:03 PM
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TE - That Satan sinned is clear from the fact that God offered to pardon him. Also the description of what he did, in both 4SP and Patriarchs and Prophets makes it clear that Satan was sinning, if one has any concept at all about what sin is. MM – She never used the word “sin” or “sinned”, did she? She used the word "lying." Lying is a sin.Are you putting words in her mouth? No. She said Satan sinned. (lying is a sin). She also said God offered to pardon Him. Pardon is only necessary where one has sinned.If not, then please post one quote where she says Lucifer “sinned” and that Jesus was willing to reinstate him without the shedding of blood. I've already provided the quote. The quote points out that Satan sinned (he lied, as well as doing other things which are sin) and God offered to receive Him back on the condition of repentance and submission. There was no mention of Christ's dying.TE - Finally, it is you, not I, that need to come up with a quote that presents the idea that Christ would have had to die to reinstate Satan. I came up with a quote which stated all that was necessary: that Satan repent and submit. If you think something beyond that was necessary, then produce a quote. MM – Will did exactly that. He posted Hebrews 9:22 – “"Without shedding of blood is no remission ." Ellen White never said Jesus would have pardoned Lucifer’s “sin” without the shedding of blood. That’s what you are concluding because she used the word “pardon”. The problem here is that you have a point of view, which you are reading into the Scriptures. When I present evidence that your view is wrong, rather than adjust your view, you refuse to give due consideration to the evidence.
Hebrews 9:22 says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Hebrews is talking about us, not about Satan. From the Spirit of Prophecy we see that Satan would have been pardoned with the shedding of blood. Hence the shedding of blood is not necessary for some arbitrary or imposed reason, but for some actual reason. In the DA quote I mentioned it says: quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)
This is the same reason Peter gives in 1 Pet. 3:18, and the Spirit of Prophecy in ST 1/20/90. The purpose of the blood is to reveal the character of God that we might be drawn back to God. Satan already knew His character, so blood would not have availed him anything. Hence all that was necessary for Satan, since he already knew God's character, was to repent.
There is more to the shedding of blood than simply demonstrating the fact that God is unselfish and self-sacrificing.
Other than your assuming this is the case and asserting it, what is the evidence? The Spirit of Prophecy says that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us. If you think she is wrong about this, and there was more to Christ's mission than this, what is your evidence?
Of course, that is very important to know and believe. without it we would be lost. But death is also the only way to eliminate the record and memory of sinning and the existence of sinners.
I don't know what you're saying here.
Jesus does this for us. He earned the right, on the cross, to own our sin and second death.
Where is this written? You keep repeating this, and I ask you for evidence, but you produce none.
He also earned the right to transfer them to Satan in the lake of fire at the end of time. Our record and memory of sinning will be eliminated with Satan in the lake of fire.
So God will perform some sort of labotomy on us, removing portions of our brain? We will look at Christ's hands, and see the scar, and one will ask another, "What happened?" and the other will respond, "I don't remember?"
If Jesus had not lived and died the perfect life and death He would not have earned the right to own our sin and second death, in which case Adam and Eve would have been destroyed immediately and none of us would have been born. Do you agree?
I see things much differently than you do. From my perspective, the issue involved is the Great Controversy. Satan misrepresented God's character, which is how he got subjects. God could not win the GC by force. First of all, force is not a principle of God's government. His government is moral, and its principles are love, mercy and truth.
Only by love can love be awakened. The only way God could win the GC was by making the truth known; the truth about His love, and about His character. This could only be done by Christ.
So God sent His Son, at the risk of failure and eternal loss, in order to reveal God to us. The truth revealed by Christ accomplishes everything that needs to be accomplished. Everything. Nothing is lacking.
The problem is not one of legal problems needing to be solved, but of alienated hearts and minds being drawn to God; also, in the case of angels, of the truth about the adversary's character and government to be made known. (of course, this is also important for us, but particularly for them, because they knew and loved Satan before his rebellion).
I'm not aware of anything in Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy, or Adventism as a whole in the time that EGW lived (and possibly ever), which speaks of Christ's having to earn the right to own our sin and death. Can you produce any quote by anyone before 1917 which speaks of this?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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