|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,615
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49181
01/26/04 02:40 PM
01/26/04 02:40 PM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Christ Refuted Satan's Boast That No One Could Live a Spotless Life
Letter 38, 1907
Christ came to suffer in man's behalf, for Satan had made the boast that no one could withstand his devising and in this world live a spotless life. Clothed with human nature, the Redeemer subjected Himself to all the temptations with which human beings are beset, and He overcame on every point. The record of His life is given to the world, that no one need be in doubt as to the power of the grace of God. To every soul who strives for perfection of Christian character, this world becomes a battlefield on which is fought the controversy between good and evil. And everyone who trusts in Christ will gain the victory.
Friends we are on a battlefield. The choice is ours on WHICH side we CHOOSE to be on. God's or Satan's side. We do have a choice. I pray all of us are choosing to be on the winning side and we KNOW already which side is going to win this battle, as it has already been won. The thing is are we going to be on the winning side?
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49182
01/29/04 03:20 PM
01/29/04 03:20 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Is it possible to live a spotless life? Yes, of course. Our God is all powerful. If it were not possible to live without sinning then Satan is right about God. But praise God we can live by faith the life of Jesus - NOW!!!
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49183
01/31/04 01:41 PM
01/31/04 01:41 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Can we live a spotless life? Is it possible?
Let’s the bible answer this question.
Is there anyone before the cross that had lived a spotless life? To narrow it, is there any one before the cross who was under the law’s (under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction) that had lived a spotless life?
In general the Gospel said that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23. This means, in general no one is spotless, sinless and perfect.
To narrow it, no one from Israel who were under the law, was perfect and spotless, because Christ came to redeem them – Galatians 4:5. This must include Elijah and Moses who were already in heaven before redemption took place, both were sinners and law breakers before the law, saved and justified to eternal life and heaven by the grace of God through Christ redemption.
Would there be any one who were under the law of the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction lived a perfect sinless and spotless life his whole life? Would there be any one justified by the law for his perfect righteousness obtained through perfect obedience to the law?
The Gospel of Christ says NO!!!!
If the man might live a sinless perfect life through obedience to the Ten Commandments that stands as a standard of judgment and righteousness, WHETHER WITH FAITH IN CHRIST OR NOT, the law would justify him for eternal life, because this life is the reward for his righteousness obtained through his perfect obedience to the law – Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5.
If this man is justified, the Gospel said that Christ is dead in vain, his redemptive work means nothing; he fell away from grace – Galatians 2:21; 5:4.
Conclusion I:
No man might live a spotless, sinless perfect life during his whole life, not through his obedience to the law, which of course means that his obedience is not perfect, in other word, before the law he is a law breaker and sinner that deserve to die. This make him must depend on the redemptive work of Christ for his salvation and on the work of the Spirit through faith for his righteousness that allows him to enter heaven.
Conclusion II:
This man is righteous and FIT to enter heaven, to see God and live with him, because, firstly he was saved to eternal life through Christ redemption that justify him in his sins (Christ imputed righteousness) and secondly, because he was made righteous through the work of the Spirit that did the willing and the doing of God in him; that shed abroad the love of God in his heart. But if he is under the law, before the law he stands as a sinner and law-breaker for sure and the law could not justify him.
I understand Mike view, but I am against him, for the Gospel clearly say that no man might be justified by the law because no man is righteous before the law, this condition is only for those who were under the law, who were obliged to keep and obey the law where the law of the Ten Commandments would judge them for it is God’s standard of judgment and righteousness. The law could not justify them because no one has a perfect obedience that fulfill the law demands ever since he came under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction.
Justification is only by faith, for through faith a believer was made righteous by the Spirit who did in him God’s will and perform it – Philippians 2:13.
But, during his life time, within this believer there is a constant war between the flesh and the Spirit – Galatians 5:16,17; each urging to take the control of his body and mind, and since this believer has a free will choice while Satan is still alive, he could not perform a constant will to follow the Spirit, therefore the Gospel said: No man might ever be justified by the law ever since he came under the law’s jurisdiction, because it is guaranteed that this man would sin, even once in a lifetime, but this is enough to make him a law=breaker and the law could not justify him. Otherwise, as the Gospel said, Christ died in vain and he is fallen from grace.
Meanwhile, if he lived with faith and walked after the Spirit and not under the law’s jurisdiction, the grace of God would forgives his sins and remember it no more, he is not under condemnation for he is not under the law’s (Ten Commandments’ judgment) – Galatians 5:18; Romans 6:14.
“If righteousness might come by the law, Christ died in vain”; since he has died 2,000 years ago, no man who came under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction ever since might get the law’s justification, for he is surely not perfect and spotless. The fact that Christ came and died to redeem men is enough to convince us that no man might be justified by the law through his obedience, otherwise he would be justified to eternal life and Christ died in vain.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49184
01/31/04 01:53 PM
01/31/04 01:53 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
The Gospel said that we are saved by grace through faith.
By God’s grace through Christ redemption, all men were justified to eternal life. They were justified in what they are, but God sees and accepts them as sinless and perfect “in Christ”, I think this is what is called “the imputed righteousness of Christ”, his righteousness that covers our sins; his robe of righteousness.
By God’s grace that forgives our sins during our life time walking in the Spirit with faith in Christ, we would be justified by our faith in him, for through this faith, we were made righteous and FIT for heaven. We do not enter heaven covered with Christ righteousness that hides our sins within, but we enter heaven as righteous as we are. We were made righteous because it is the Spirit who imparts the love of God in our hearts, enabling us to love our fellowman. This is I think what is called “Christ imparted righteousness.”
So, I saw it this way; that humanity were justified to eternal life by the imputed righteousness of Christ and justified to heaven by the imparted righteousness of Christ.
The first justification happened at the cross of Christ and the last one happens at the Judgment day.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49185
01/31/04 01:56 PM
01/31/04 01:56 PM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Praise God that the lie Satan has deceived so many with has been refuted by Jesus Christ Himself. Who would want to make light of what Jesus came to do and did do while on this earth for us by saying that we cannot overcome ALL sin? Those that say it is not possible to live a life in the steps of Christ are making a mockery of Jesus' life here on Earth and His death on the Cross. If we are not able to live this life we should not dishonor God by saying it is not possible. This is dishonoring what has been done for us. We should have the guts enough to just admit it is just because we love whatever it is that we are doing more than we love Jesus, and not say it is not possible to do something that Jesus came and proved beyond a doubt we can do, in His strength.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49186
01/31/04 02:02 PM
01/31/04 02:02 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike wrote:
Is it possible to live a spotless life? Yes, of course. Our God is all powerful. If it were not possible to live without sinning then Satan is right about God. But praise God we can live by faith the life of Jesus - NOW!!!
Unquote.
Can you please clarify what do you mean with: Satan is right about God?
Are we saved by God’s grace that includes a justification to eternal life through Christ redemption and justified to heaven by faith where the grace of God forgives our sins, or are we saved and justified because we are able to live without sinning, which means, for those who were under the law (as you were), we earn life through our obedience to the law and justified by the law?
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49187
01/31/04 07:17 PM
01/31/04 07:17 PM
|
|
|
Yes, Ephesians 2:8-10 says: quote:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What unto good works are we created in Christ Jesus to do?
The lesson study guide for Tuesday, January 27, 2004 speaks to the issue of the relationship of faith and works.
The question there is, What do these texts say about the relationship between faith and works? Isa. 58:1-12, John 15:5, James 2:22.
This passage in James really spoke to me in relation to the above question:
quote:
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I know what the above verses are telling me that I especially emphasized in bold using both red and black colors.
What are they telling you?
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49188
02/01/04 09:48 PM
02/01/04 09:48 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
I agree with Avalee - anyone who says Jesus cannot empower us now to live without sinning is crucifying Christ afresh. Jesus came to accomplish many things, one of them was to save us from sinning and to destroy the works of the Devil. See Mat 1:21 and 1 John 3:8. This, perhaps more than anything else, is proof Jesus is God.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49189
02/03/04 04:20 AM
02/03/04 04:20 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Amen Mike....it is hearbreaking to read stuff like that about how we do not have to obey completly what God says....How could anyone who claims to love Jesus beleive that they do not have to follow in His footsteps....How very very sad. quote:
A High Standard
Page 41
Maranatha
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Lev. 20:26
I also saw many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.
I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of "refreshing" and the "latter rain" to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who . . . fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth . . . will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be . . . no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.
We are today to watch that we offend not in word or deed. . . . We must today seek God and be determined that we will not rest satisfied without His presence. We should watch and work and pray as though this were the last day that would be granted us. How intensely earnest, then, would be our life. How closely would we follow Jesus in all our words and deeds.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49190
02/03/04 12:18 PM
02/03/04 12:18 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
I think all of you that commented on my post have again missed the point.
I didn’t say that we enter heaven as sinners, I agree that we enter heaven spotless and sinless for we have a righteousness that is done by the Spirit in us who lived with faith and walked after the Spirit.
But what I meant is, that even we are righteous perfect, spotless and sinless when we enter heaven because that is the requirement to see God and live with him, before the law we are law-breakers because we did sin in our past life from the day we accept Christ through faith as our Redeemer and Savior, or from the day we were reborn in Christ.
What I don’t believe and is supported by the Gospel of Christ is that we could not live a perfect sinless life since the day we were baptized into Christ till the end of our day. The Gospel said that we could not continually live a perfect sinless life and has a perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments without sinning, otherwise we would be justified by the law and Christ died in vain, because the law would justify us to eternal life as the reward of our perfect obedience that stands against the redemptive work of Christ.
If you don’t agree with me, now, I am asking honestly to you all; who of you that dare to say that you have a perfect sinless life till this day ever since you were baptized into Christ? Who of you that dare to say you never sinned?
If you say that you have sinned, even once in your whole life, that is enough for the Law not to justify you.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49191
02/03/04 12:19 PM
02/03/04 12:19 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
By the way, because Mike is the one promoting we could have a sinless perfect life and fulfill the law demands through our obedience, then you MUST HAVE a perfect sinless life, you never sinned since the day you were baptized.
Dare to admit it Mike?
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49192
02/04/04 04:32 AM
02/04/04 04:32 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
I am surprised and sadden that as one who claims to follow Jesus a professing Christian would ask another Christian such a question. What a shame for you to do such a thing. Mike has never said in any of these posts that he has not sinned since he was born again. We have strong council against that very thing from the Spirit of Prophecy. A truly converted person will not go around saying they are without sin. I also believe they will not be even thinking of it. They live their life following Jesus. If you think that it is not possible to attain to the life that Jesus lived you are very mistaken. Yes we are human, and we may fall. But if we do we have advocate to go to for forgiveness. But do we go and ask for forgiveness to just go back and continue to sin? This is a mockery to God and His promises to be with us and give us the strengh to overcome anything. How can you or anyone else make so light of what Jesus went through in the wilderness? How can anyone think that it is not possible to overcome all sin when Jesus went through 40 days of great temptation in the wilderness. What a slap in the face to Jesus and all the pain He went through then. quote:
Desire of Ages
Page 116-117
Many look on this conflict between Christ and Satan as having no special bearing on their own life; and for them it has little interest. But within the domain of every human heart this controversy is repeated. Never does one leave the ranks of evil for the service of God without encountering the assaults of Satan. The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Philippians 4
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Amen what precious promises God has given us. I am so thankful that when I became a Christian I was given a mind that does not listen to those who do not truly believe in Jesus and that He has overcome Satan completly and given us the power to overcome Satan too. What a glorious thing this is...and such a peace we have when we are one with Christ in our minds.
quote:
And how this is accomplished, Christ has shown us. By what means did He overcome in the conflict with Satan? By the word of God. Only by the word could He resist temptation. "It is written," He said. And unto us are given "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. Every promise in God's word is ours. "By every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" are we to live. When assailed by temptation, look not to circumstances or to the weakness of self, but to the power of the word. All its strength is yours. "Thy word," says the psalmist, "have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee." "By the word of Thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer." Ps. 119:11; 17:4.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49193
02/03/04 07:59 PM
02/03/04 07:59 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Wouldn't the spotless\sinless life be based upon whether the person had faith or not?
It is through faith that we are justified, and we are righteous, and by our faith since we love the lord with all our heart that we obey Him. Things like love they neighbor, don;t covet thy neighbors belongings, remember the Sabbath etc etc.. God work's on a person's heart and will bring these things to mind so you the individual can make the decision of whom you will serve.
This would be diffrent from one who does not know or care to know who Jesus is and what He did for them, and for us all.
It would be from the inside out.. ANy thoughts?
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49194
02/03/04 08:19 PM
02/03/04 08:19 PM
|
|
|
Yes, Will, it would be from the inside out. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) It definitely isn't from the outside in. That is why we come to Jesus just as we are, a sinner, transformed from within by the grace of God, from which springs forth joyful obedience empowered by the Holy Spirit. Faith plus the resulting works of obedience = Living Faith. Faith minus the resulting works of obedience = Dead Faith.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49195
02/03/04 08:28 PM
02/03/04 08:28 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Amen! We are converted when we´re born again. The old is gone and everything is new. 2 Cor 5:17. The water (i.e. works) that flows in and out of us is pure and undefiled. We are just as righteous as Jesus was. 1 John 2:7. For it His righteousness that flows in and out of us. True, we are not as mature as He was, but the difference is not sin - rather it has to do with depth and degree of righteousness. Like sun light is brighter than candle light so too Jesus´ righteousness out shines ours. Both, however, are light.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49196
02/03/04 09:58 PM
02/03/04 09:58 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
This would equate to the renewing of the Holy Ghost correct?
Where before you were saved you were one way, but prior to being saved the Holy Spirit is working on you and impressing your heart to make a decision.
This renewing continues after you are baptized as well ( I believe it does), since we heed to the Word of God and want to follow Him. Yet if we fail due to our own weaknesses (mentally) we have an Advocate in Heaven and our sins will be forgiven.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49197
02/04/04 01:11 PM
02/04/04 01:11 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Daryl.
First, I would comment on Ephesians 2:8-10.
Paul clearly said there, that we are saved by God’s grace through faith, which is a gift. Next step is to have good works, that I assume is “love to our fellowman”, a phrase that is all around in Pauline epistle. I would not say that the good works Paul meant is keeping and obeying the Ten Commandments, for my study say that is not the case. Why “love to our fellowman?” Because “love” is fruit of the Spirit and not deeds of the flesh, you may have fruits of the Spirit only when you live with faith and walk after the Spirit.
Then you try to clarify the relationship between “faith and works” using James 2:20-26 to give the impression of how important “works” is in its relationship with faith, which are the deeds of the law for those who were under the law.
At the end, I see your conclusion is that “works” has a same level with “faith” in justification, which I believe will stands against Paul theology that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I think that your presentations and others here even seems right but stands in contradiction with what the Gospel said.
I believe that there must be no contradiction even it seems so, it is just the way how we interpret those verses of different author in the Gospel of Christ, there must be a harmony; otherwise it is not the Gospel of Christ.
My view of James 2:20-26, which I believe is in harmony with the Gospel of Christ is:
Paul said that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law, this man would have fruits of the Spirit, which are the good works of those who lived with faith and walked after the Spirit, but these “works” are not deeds of the law based on his desires to keep and obey the law (Ten Commandments) because Paul was against those who desired to come under the law. Rather, these good works are the willing and the doing of the Spirit, which is love to our fellowman.
James said that if a man has not good works, his faith is dead, because genuine faith always bear “good works”, which are “love to our fellowman” as he mentioned earlier in James 2:14-16. The same is said in James 2:1,8.
Therefore, I see that James view was not against Paul, because the “good works” are the same, which is love as fruits of the Spirit and not deeds of the law when you are obliged to keep and obey the law for those who are under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction. What James meant with “the perfect law that gives freedom”, which he also said “the royal law” is LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF and not the Ten Commandments.
Both Paul and James were not under the jurisdiction of the law of the Ten Commandments, but they knew that they would have deeds that fulfill the law demands when they have the love of God that expressed it self in deeds of love to their fellowman. Therefore, James didn’t say that the Ten Commandments that would judge us but “the law that gives freedom”, mentioned earlier as “love your neighbor as your self.”
The Ten Commandments it self is not a law that gives freedom, for according to Paul, it is a law that condone slavery because it strengthen the sin in us to dominate us when we desire to keep and obey the law. To accept the Ten Commandments as God’s standard of judgment and righteousness is to accept the law of condemnation that brought death as a means of salvation, which of course would only condemns law keepers for their sins done in their life.
Even James went further than Paul saying that “works” is counted in justification and not faith only, but he was not against Paul, for these “works” are not deeds of the law but “love as fruits of the Spirit.” I can agree with him, because if we have no love to our fellowman, as James said, our faith is a fake, and God could not justify us.
However, because you are under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction, you believe that good works are perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments, which are deeds of the law. In this case, you stand against Paul and James.
Whether God justify a man by his faith; or by his faith when he has good works, which means good works is counted for justification in the judgment, but no one who was under the law would ever be justified by the law. For there is no one that might stand perfect and righteous before the law to be justified, otherwise Christ died in vain. However, as long it is not a justification by faith with the deeds of the law, it is not against the Gospel of Christ because Paul was really against it and James didn’t mean either.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49198
02/04/04 01:12 PM
02/04/04 01:12 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
Jesus surely can empower us to live without sinning, I know this and believe this. What I didn’t believe is saying that you might have a perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments that fulfill the law demands without ever sinning in your whole life, because this view is clearly against the Gospel of Christ. Why? Because those who sinned under the law would be judge by the law; those who never sinned under the law would be justified by the law unto eternal life, but he is fallen away from grace and Christ means nothing to him, Christ died in vain – Galatians 2:21; 5:4.
But by faith I eagerly wait through the Spirit the righteousness for which I hope – Galatians 5:5. The righteousness that comes from the willing and the doing of God in me through the Spirit – Philippians 2:13. The righteousness of God without the law that was manifested in Jesus Christ for all who believe, a righteousness that comes by faith – Romans 3:21,22.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49199
02/04/04 01:15 PM
02/04/04 01:15 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
If you really study the bible you would find out that God didn’t ask you to obey his Ten Commandments, but to love him. You will find out that to follow in the footsteps of Christ is not to come under the jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments as he was but to love your neighbor as yourself.
Find it!
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49200
02/04/04 01:34 PM
02/04/04 01:34 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
All right!
You have answered your own question of this topic, that no man might ever live a sinless perfect life ever since he was reborn, which I agree.
I asked those question because I must really clear to understand Mike who said that we could stop sinning from the moment we are reborn, that our life forward is to mature in the fruit of the Spirit, to mature in righteousness. This gives an impression that we could live perfectly sinless ever since the day we were reborn.
To me, the Gospel is clear that no man might be justified by the law for his obedience, not because justification is by faith and not by the law, but because justification by faith is God’s gift to justify men to enter heaven for no man is perfect and righteous before the law due his obedience is not perfect, he has sinned and broke the law in his life. If God doesn’t justify us by faith, there is no way for a law keeper to enter heaven.
Thus, justification by faith is the gift of God based on his grace to replace justification by the law no man might attain through his works of obedience to the law.
Romans 8:3,4 clearly said that the law could not justify us to eternal life because the flesh is weak, but Christ did it and through our faith in him and a walk after the Spirit we may have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us without coming under the law’s jurisdiction that would only condemn us for our failures in keeping it perfectly.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49201
02/04/04 01:36 PM
02/04/04 01:36 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
We both agree that a man might enter heaven only when he is spotless and sinless, because sin and sinner can not live in heaven and see God. I had presented all the time that God is going to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe.
We also agree that no man might live perfectly sinless ever since the day he was reborn in Christ, either for those who were under the law and those who were not.
What differs between us, is, the way we become righteous and perfect that allows us to enter heaven and see God.
You believe that through faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit that is expressed in works of obedience to the Ten Commandments, you might come to the level of righteousness that is sinless and perfect, to allow you to enter heaven. This, according to me, is a mixing of our effort to be righteous through our faith in Christ.
I believe that through faith in Christ and a walk after the Spirit, I would be made righteous and perfect. This, according to me is pure faith. I just choose to believe this and walked in the path of the Spirit.
You are under the law with the obligation to keep and obey the Ten Commandments that would stand as God’s standard of judgment and righteousness, and I don’t, I am under grace and love is God’s law of judgment and righteousness.
The Gospel told me, that if I desire to come under the law, I will come under the law’s jurisdiction and judgment, where there are only two choices for me: to be justified by the law or to be condemned.
If I am justified by the law, I fell away from grace and Christ means nothing to me, he died in vain.
If I am condemned by the law, no one can help me for I stand alone in the judgment; fell away from grace and Christ means nothing to me.
Therefore, based on this view, which I believe is the teaching of the Gospel I had studied, I would not come under the law’s jurisdiction and its obligation to keep and obey the Ten Commandments. This is in harmony with what Paul said in Galatians 3:21-25, and Paul too was not under the law.
Until you or anybody else can convince me with bible support only, that we must come under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction and obliged to keep and obey the law, I will maintain my view that what people of nowadays believe and taught by the church has no basic.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49202
02/04/04 01:45 PM
02/04/04 01:45 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Daryl said:
Faith plus the resulting works of obedience = Living Faith.
Faith minus the resulting works of obedience = Dead Faith.
Unquote.
I disagree, for the Gospel told me that: Faith + fruits of the Spirit = living faith
Faith minus fruits of the Spirit is dead faith.
Works of obedience to the law is not fruits of the Spirit but deeds of the flesh, for it is your own desire to come under the law, to keep and obey the law, it is not the Spirit desire.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49203
02/05/04 04:24 AM
02/05/04 04:24 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
Avalee.
If you really study the bible you would find out that God didn’t ask you to obey his Ten Commandments, but to love him. You will find out that to follow in the footsteps of Christ is not to come under the jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments as he was but to love your neighbor as yourself.
Find it!
In His love
James S.
Praise God I will not dishonor God by believing such falsehoods James that you teach. I study my Bible everyday, and the Bible does not teach what you are saying. Because I love God and follow in Jesus footsteps I in faith believe in the Ten Commandments and I believe that they are still binding today. Yes we will love our neighbor as ourself..which is following the Ten Commandments. The last 6...the first 4 is showing our love and obedience to God. They are not grievious, but are to those who do not want to completely gives themselves to the Creator.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
There it is plain as day. If you do not realy love Jesus you will not keep the commandments. You can not get any plainer than this.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49204
02/05/04 04:50 AM
02/05/04 04:50 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
If after reading this little booklet on the Law of God by Joe Crews does not help those who continue to belive a lie than I really do not believe there is much more to say. Time is to short to be playing these games. Just which one of the Ten Commandments do you not like? Does God's Grace Blot Out The Law? 2 Th 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: Here is another little book by the same author. Praise God He has those faithful followers who teach the truth to those in darkness. Amen Why The Old Covenant Failed
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49205
02/04/04 05:39 PM
02/04/04 05:39 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
James, quote:
James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Looks like this goes against your false doctrine James. You do violence against the Word of God
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49206
02/04/04 05:42 PM
02/04/04 05:42 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
James, quote:
James 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Can you elaborate on the above verses from James 2:10-12. What is being said here?
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49207
02/04/04 05:53 PM
02/04/04 05:53 PM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
James,
quote:
James 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Can you elaborate on the above verses from James 2:10-12. What is being said here?
God Bless,
Will
Will thank you for sharing the truth in this scripture. This scripture is very plain in what it says. Amen Verse 11 plainly tells us what law it is talking about. The scripures are so plain even a child shall understand.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49208
02/05/04 01:09 AM
02/05/04 01:09 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, to add further to what we´ve said so far I´d like to point out that the growth we experience after we are born again was demonstrated by Jesus as He grew in knowledge and matured in the fruit of the Spirit. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting or discovering unknown moral imperfections.
Sinning and repenting can and does happen after we´re born again but it isn´t part of growing in grace. The purpose of grace is to enable us to live without sinning. Any and all known sins we commit after we´re born again is unnecessary. Why? Because God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to recognize and resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10;13.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49209
02/05/04 03:42 AM
02/05/04 03:42 AM
|
|
|
Yes, 1 Corinthians 10:13 does say that: quote:
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
God allows us to be tempted, but not beyond our own strength to overcome it.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49210
02/05/04 04:02 AM
02/05/04 04:02 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike, So far I understand what you are saying and agree. What do you mean by: quote:
. Any and all known sins we commit after we´re born again is unnecessary. Why? Because God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to recognize and resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10;13.
The reason I ask is because there are times I have sinned.. many times and this is after I was baptized many years ago.
I do recognize that it was my lack of faith and thinking 'I can handle this' in which case I fall on my face.
Does that mean I have blashphemed the Holy Spirit. It hasn't happened on just one occassion either. I could go for a few months 'smooth sailing' and placing my trust in God even when I feel I am about to break down, and then all of a sudden I do something stupid by entertaining the thought and then BAM! I messed up.. It really gets to me, but I pray for strength and ask for forgiveness.
Any thoughts on this?
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49211
02/05/04 12:24 PM
02/05/04 12:24 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee wrote:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
There it is plain as day. If you do not realy love Jesus you will not keep the commandments. You can not get any plainer than this.
______________________
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
Unquote.
And later John said:
John 15
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 4
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
It is plain as day that the commandment we should keep is “love one another" and not the "Ten Commandments."
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49212
02/05/04 01:10 PM
02/05/04 01:10 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Will wrote:
James,
quote:
James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Looks like this goes against your false doctrine James. You do violence against the Word of God
God Bless,
Will
Unquote.
Is it hard to understand my views that you must say those things?
I clearly presented that those who lived with faith and walked after the Spirit would produce fruits of the Spirit, which is love to their fellowman; that is the works of faith. But these “fruits” is not obedience to the Ten Commandments through keeping and obeying it, but it is a natural outflow of the hearts filled with the love of God that seeks no self. Christ believer is enabled to love his fellowman because he has the love of God that seeks no self imparted in his heart by the Spirit; he is unable to love his fellowman because his heart is still selfish, he still loved himself more.
I see the way you believe that your fruits of the Spirit is obedience to the Ten Commandments, which I disagree. Because I believe that to love our fellowman is a natural outflow of hearts filled by the love of God that was shed abroad by the Spirit and not an effort to be righteous by obeying the Ten Commandments.
May be you didn’t understand that NOT KEEPING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS doesn’t mean BREAKING WHAT IS WRITTEN THERE. How could he transgress the thing written in the Ten Commandments when the love of God ruled his heart? Isn’t love the fulfillment of the law? This believer may have deeds that conforms the law requirements without coming under its jurisdiction, for to love his fellowman as the requirements written on stone tablets is not his effort through obedience but A NATURAL OUTFLOW FROM HEARTS FILLED WITH THELOVE OF GOD.
Can you have the love of God through obedience to the law? NO! Otherwise Christ doesn’t need to come and died for us. You could only have the love of God through faith, for it is a gift shed by the Spirit.
When you have the love of God shed abroad in your heart by the Spirit through faith as a gift, is it necessary for you to come under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction and judgment? Is it necessary for you to keep and obey an external law? Why should you? Isn’t love the fulfillment of the Ten Commandments? If it is, then you would do what is written in the law without giving any attention for it, because you do it naturally. That is what is meant by: God wrote his law in our heart.; you didn’t need an external law to guide you to do what the law demands, you do it from within your hearts, overflowed with the love of God that seeks no self.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49213
02/05/04 01:14 PM
02/05/04 01:14 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Will wrote:
James,
quote:
James 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Can you elaborate on the above verses from James 2:10-12. What is being said here?
God Bless,
Will
Unquote.
I have presented and clarified this verse many times here, even to you too, but unless you forget it, I would repeat it again.
James has mentioned earlier that we must love our fellowman without showing favoritism, if we show favoritism, it means we don’t have love to our fellowman, we are still selfish.
Then he used the Ten Commandments as a COMPARISON; those who said they kept the whole law but offended one of it, has broken the whole law. He must act and do as what he claimed himself to be. The same with those who said they loved their fellowman but shows favoritism, indeed they didn’t have love to their fellowman but selfish people.
James mentioned also that the law of liberty that gives freedom, the royal law found in the Scripture is: Love your neighbor as yourself. He didn’t say that this law is the Ten Commandments.
After making comparison using the law of the Ten Commandments, he backed again to his speech about loving our fellow man without showing favoritism, for those who said so but shows favoritism would be judge according to it.
Why is “love” the law of liberty, the law that gives freedom? Because love, which is the principle of the law released us from being selfish, it gives freedom from the sin in us; our self-love nature.
Is the Ten Commandments a law that gives freedom, that gives liberty? No! Because this law condone slavery, being under the law would make sin dominates us, it strengthen the sin in us, our self-love nature to do the things required by the law to be righteous, but on the contrary, it increased our sins and at the end kills us. Therefore, according to Paul, the law written and engraved on stone is a law that kills, its ministry brought condemnation and death.
No man might ever be righteous before the law trough his obedience to be justified by the law unto eternal life, therefore, Christ came and died to redeem those who were under the law that justifies them unto eternal life. If righteousness come by the law, Christ died in vain.
It is hard to accept the truth that stands against what you are used to think and believed, same happen to me, but I am searching for the truth, and when it is a truth, no matter it stands against the Church doctrine or against EGW I accept it because it is the truth of the Gospel of Christ.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49214
02/06/04 04:14 AM
02/06/04 04:14 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
If a perons can read all the above scriptures and still teach the falsehood that the Ten Commandments are not binding today then I just do not know what else to say. It is so very plain that Jesus has told us what to do. The following verse is very plain.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
It was given before but it seems some want to just ignore what the Holy Scriptures are saying.
Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49215
02/05/04 07:57 PM
02/05/04 07:57 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
James,
You have missed the whole point, and claim again what you preach is truth. A teachable heart many have and some don't I choose to learn what God reveals in His Word, and not cut out certain parts and ignore what the Bible as a whole teaches. You did just that trying to make sure that the book of James was inline with what Paul said.. It's really sick, but I prefer to use the whole Bible not just a few pages. I stand by faith what is written in the Bible in regards to these plain truths.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49216
02/05/04 11:54 PM
02/05/04 11:54 PM
|
|
|
James said, quote:
Is the Ten Commandments a law that gives freedom, that gives liberty? No!
The Bible says the precise opposite:
"I will walk at liberty: for I seek Thy precepts." Psalm 119:45 That the word "precepts" here means the Ten Commandments is so obvious as not to need any explanation; the whole of Psalm 119 is about the Ten Commandments.
[edit] More evidence that obedience to God's law makes men free indeed:
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Thy law is the truth." Psalm 119:142
"Thou art near, O Lord; and all Thy commandments are truth." Psalm 119:151
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Romans 6:18
"My tongue shall speak of Thy word: for all Thy commandments are righteousness." Psalm 119:172
[ February 06, 2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: John ]
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49217
02/06/04 11:50 AM
02/06/04 11:50 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Manuscript 6a, 1886
We want to pray with David, "Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law" [Ps. 119:18]. Many close their eyes lest they shall see the truth. They do not want to see the defects in their life and character, and they are disturbed if you mention anything about God's law. In this they show that they have a human standard of their own; that their will is not the will of God. We want that you should not be deceived by Satan, the first great adversary of God's law. We want to bear in mind that God's law is the only standard by which He will judge man.
I have asked before and I ask again: Just which one of God's Ten Commandments is it that anyone has a problem with?
Which one of these do you want to do to your neighbor?
Do you want to murder someone? commit adultry? steal from someone? do you want to lie about someone? do you want what someone else has that you do not?
OR is it against God that you want to rebel?
Do you want to have other Gods besides God? do you want to make a graven image and bow down to it? or do you want to OR do you want to take the Lord's name in vain? OR do you want to just not keep the Sabbath?
Which one is it that anyone really wants to do and that is the reason they do not like the wonderous things that we can behold in God's law? How very very sad of people who talk this way about God's Law. They are doing a very great injustice to God and making a mockery of what Jesus came and suffered in this world for. I pray that those of you who are so deceived that you will open up your minds to the truth of the scriptures.
Psa 119:18
Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49218
02/06/04 03:13 PM
02/06/04 03:13 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, I can relate to what you´re saying. I hate it when I fall. But the reason is always the same - I took my eyes off Jesus. That simplifies things. Instead of listing all the reasons why I failed it all boils down to the one and the same thing - I took my eyes off Jesus.
When we fail it is dangerous to assume anything else other than we took our eyes off Jesus. If we attempt to figure out why we failed based on this or that thing we did or didn´t do (as if anything other than keeping our eyes on Jesus counts) then we are going to get ourselves in trouble. There is no temptation too difficult for God to help us resist unto His honor and glory - regardless of whether or not we forgot to do this or that thing.
Yes, there are things we can and must do daily in order not to fail. Diet, Bible study, scripture songs, avoiding bad influences, etc. and much more are important and necessary. However, the purpose of these things is to help us keep our eyes on Jesus. They have no real intrinsic value otherwise.
If and when we fail we cannot conclude - It´s because I didn´t get enough sleep, or I ate too late last night, or I forgot devotions this morning, or I didn´t quote the right text when tempted, etc. The reason why we fail is because we take our eyes off Jesus. Period! Whether or not we do or don´t do this or that important thing failing has nothing to do with anything other than we took our eyes off Jesus.
We must never believe that failing or succeeding depends on what we do or don´t do. Our success depends on one thing only - Jesus! In the heat of temptation we must focus on one thing - Jesus, not on whether or not I need to do this or that thing to resist. If we make Jesus the focus of our attention we will walk away victorious. But if we make this or that thing our focus then we have already failed.
In the heat of temptation we must walk with Jesus in our minds eye. If we flee to Him and spend time with Him we are victorious. But we must not flee to Jesus and beg Him to help us overcome our present temptation. Nor should we flee to Him and beg Him to empower us to behave in the opposite way of our present temptation. If we make temptation or righteousness the purpose of our spending time with Jesus then we are focusing on behaviour and not Jesus.
If we focus on behviour then we are not spending time with Jesus. Instead we´re using Him to help ourselves. It´s like we´re Jesus´pimp or something, and we´re using Him for our own selfish purposes. Not good. The only way we can successfully resist temptation unto the honor and glory of God is to spend time with Jesus as with a friend - not as His pimp.
As we show an interest in Him and what matters to Him we will become so absorbed with how awesome He is that the present temptation will lose all its power and appeal. That´s the only true victory. The victory has to do with walking with Jesus as with a friend - not so much that we didn´t sin. If all we do is not sin then we are unprofitable servants.
God is good. Thank you Jesus.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49219
02/16/04 11:27 AM
02/16/04 11:27 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
To comment on your post dated 05 February:
When the Old Testament people said about the law, I knew they meant it with the laws engraved on stone tablets and what Moses wrote.
When Paul, John and James wrote about the law to be kept, I didn’t see it as the Ten Commandments, but “love your fellowman as your self.”
I know that I am right about this.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49220
02/16/04 11:30 AM
02/16/04 11:30 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Will.
Sorry, but I have presented what is true, meanwhile, I see that what you wrote is not the truth.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49221
02/16/04 11:34 AM
02/16/04 11:34 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
To comment on your post dated 06 February:
When the love of God ruled my heart shed abroad by the Spirit, I would have deeds of love to my fellowman as fruits of the Spirit.
Tell me, why should I obey the Ten Commandments? Isn’t my deeds fulfill the law demands as a natural outflow and not as an obligation? Do I need the Ten Commandments to guide and supervise my life to remain righteous? If I do, to me, it means I have not faith in the Spirit, for I still must try hard to be righteous as according the demands of the law by obeying it.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49222
02/16/04 11:38 AM
02/16/04 11:38 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
John.
Psalmist wrote regarding the law is a truth, but what Paul wrote regarding the law is also a truth. The difference is just the application to us, and Paul saw it from the practical view, the result of what happen to men who were under the law’s jurisdiction.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49223
02/16/04 01:52 PM
02/16/04 01:52 PM
|
|
|
James Wrote, quote:
When Paul, John and James wrote about the law to be kept, I didn’t see it as the Ten Commandments, but “love your fellowman as your self.”
Why did you conveniently leave out the statement by Jesus that you should "Love your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength" does it mean that half of the law which deals with our love towards God has been done away with. If so, could you support your claims appropriately.
Blessings,
EDWIN
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49224
02/16/04 03:23 PM
02/16/04 03:23 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, a knowledge of the law doesn't save us. Knowing about the 10C's isn't what saves us from sin and sinning. But without a knowledge of the law we would be unable to discern sin and sinfulness. "I had not known sin, but by the law." Rom 7:7. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20.
In order to live in harmony with the principles of God's law a knowldege of the law is necessary and essential. But again this knowledge alone is not enough to save us from sinning. Knowing about the law cannot empower us to live in harmony with its loving principles.
Once we understand the principles of God's law we must turn to Jesus and trust Him for the power to live in harmony with its principles of love. Only Jesus can enable us to love God and to love man according to the holy, just and good requirements of the law. Without Him our knowledge of the law can only serve to condemn us in judgment.
Thus knowing about the law is as important as living in harmony with its holy, just and good requirements. But without the enabling grace and power of Jesus which makes it possible for us to live in harmony with the law any and all knowledge of it will condemn us in judgment.
So, would it be accurate to say that knowing and understanding the holy, just and good requirements of the law ceases to be necessary after we are born again? In light of Bible truth this question seems illogical - doesn't it!
The law never stops pointing us to Jesus as our Saviour and Substitute and Surety. It continually reminds us that Jesus is the only One who can empower us to experience the miracle of obedience. Only Jesus can make it possible for born again believers to love God and to love man. Only Jesus!
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49225
02/17/04 04:59 AM
02/17/04 04:59 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Welcome Edwin and thank you very much for your question...a very good one.
Amen Mike thank you very much. Your post is right to the point.
James you still have not answered me which one of the Ten Commandments you have a problem with. You do not seem to have a problem with the last six maybe? But is it the first 4? Please tell me which one of them is it that you do not like that makes you so unhappy? I think they are wonderful and such a blessing. When we love God with all our heart the Ten Commandments are obeyed from this. I do not belive the true Christian is sitting around thinking of them and wondering if he broke one or if he is keeping them. Just from being totally in obedience to God out of love they will be obeyed from the heart naturally.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49226
02/23/04 04:59 AM
02/23/04 04:59 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
What you posted on February 16, 2004 11:23 AM, I could understand and in the view as a law keeper it is good and a truth. But in my view, having the knowledge of the law doesn’t mean I must come under the law’s jurisdiction with the obligation to keep and obey it. I knew what the law demands, I knew what sin is, I knew what the wage of sin is, but these all don’t make me feel that I must come under the law’s jurisdiction. Why? Because I believe that I might have deeds that conforms to the law’s principle and is in harmony with it demands without an obligation to keep and obey the law that makes me come under the law’s jurisdcition. How? Because my deeds are “fruits of the Spirit”, deeds that were based on love that seeks no self, deeds that were a natural outflow of my heart that was led by the Spirit, who did in me the “willing and the doing of God”; who “shed abroad the love of God in my heart” to replace my self-love nature. I trust and rely on the Spirit to make me righteous, to have a righteousness of the law (love that seeks no self) fulfilled in me without any obligation to keep and obey the law and come under its jurisdiction. Doesn’t the Gospel said: “but now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe.” – Romans 3:21,22. And aren’t we justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law? – Romans 3:28.
Tell me, do I need to come under the law and have the obligation to keep and obey it?
What important to me is to have deeds of love to my fellowman, which is a proof that the Spirit led my life, for I as a self-loving man could not love my fellowman, but if I did it, it means I have a heart that is filled with the love of God through the Spirit, a proof of the works of the Spirit that changes my self-loving heart to the unselfish love of God.
If I am obliged to keep and observe the law, especially the 7th day Sabbath because I am under the law’s jurisdiction, to me, it means I have no longer “freedom”, I am a slave to obligation. But “in Christ” I have the “freedom”, freedom from an obligation to keep and obey the law, freedom to live for God that resulted in a freedom of sin or freedom to serve the flesh.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49227
02/23/04 05:00 AM
02/23/04 05:00 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
That what we differ, everybody here think and believe that if you don’t keep and obey the law, it means you break the law. But that is not true because they don’t understand that only WITHOUT the law I might have the righteousness of the law (love to our fellowman), which is a proof that I was lead by the Spirit, otherwise, all my deeds are of the flesh for it is done based on an obligation. When I obliged to do a thing, I did it on my own for I desired to do it, and since I believe the Gospel said I am a self-loving man, this mean my deeds is based on my own ego and selfishness.
But you would say, you are a New Born believer having the miracle of rebirth, where God implant in you a new heart filled with his love and a new sinless mind, then, why do you need the Spirit to mature in the fruit of the Spirit through an obligation to keep and obey a law? Why do you still need Christ and his grace to empower you to obey the law and fulfill it demands? Could you not do it on your own? Didn’t you have a new heart filled with love and a sinless mind?
If yes, then you really do not need Christ and his grace, because you could do and must do it all on your own, just like Adam and Eve did it, for they were created in perfection. Even you are still living in a corrupt flesh that still send signals of old habits, but it doesn’t mean you need the Spirit/Christ and his grace to overrule it. Could you not override it by your own will, a will that originated from a new heart filled with the love of God and a new sinless mind? By believing to have a new heart that is free of self and a new sinless mind of Christ, why do you still need Christ and his grace to mature in the fruits of the Spirit through obeying and keeping the law?
Therefore I believe that Paul already told us this case in his epistle; all who comes under the law’s jurisdiction with the obligation to keep and obey it, are living without Christ and his grace, because the law would justify them unto eternal life for their perfect obedience that resulted in a perfect sinless life without ever sinning. They didn’t need Christ and is fallen away from grace because they believe that through the miracle of rebirth as a start, they might live perfectly sinless through their obedience to the law thanks to their new unselfish heart and sinless mind of Christ. At the judgment, the law that is God standard of judgment and righteousness has only two options: to justify them unto eternal life for their perfect righteousness that fulfilled the law demands or to condemn them for their sins.
Not keeping and obeying the law, to me, doesn’t mean I break the whole law and did sin. I do not keep and obey the law because I believe I am not under its jurisdiction, and my life surely would not be a life in sin and in the flesh for I lived by faith and walked after the Spirit.
Tell me, when the Spirit lead my life, ruled my heart and mind, do I do the deeds of the flesh and sinned? If no, then why is it necessary for me to be tied up to an obligation to keep and obey a set of law that makes me a slave, while Christ has released me to liberty and freedom?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49228
02/23/04 05:02 AM
02/23/04 05:02 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did you conveniently leave out the statement by Jesus that you should "Love your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength" does it mean that half of the law which deals with our love towards God has been done away with. If so, could you support your claims appropriately.
Blessings,
EDWIN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 10 | From: Nairobi, Kenya | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
= = = = =
Edwin.
Why do you think so? Don’t you know that by loving our fellowman, we have shown and proved our love to God because we did it for Jesus? Matthew 25:34-40.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49229
02/23/04 05:03 AM
02/23/04 05:03 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
I already answered Edwin that by loving my fellowman, I did love God.
Regarding the law, I have no objection, for I am not under its jurisdiction and obligation to keep and obey it.
But if you think, that I did sin because I do not keep and obey the 4th commandment even though I have deeds of love to my fellowman, I would say that I do not sin for I do not break any law. “Where there is no law there is no transgression”, didn’t the Gospel say so? When I have fruits of the Spirit, no law is against it – Galatians 5:22,23.
I do sin in only one thing; doing things that is based on my own ego, on my love for self, for my own benefits, which is selfishness. But how could I do it when the Spirit led my life? I may only do it when SELF take over my mind and my heart. But since I am not under the law’s jurisdiction that would condemn me for this sin, God has the freedom to forgive me and justify me again WITHOUT standing against his own justice and righteousness that is in the law that condemns me, a thing that I believe he could not do when you are under the law’s jurisdiction because it would ruin his own integrity against the law.
If I have the obligation to keep and observe the 7th day Sabbath for it is God’s law, to show my love to Him, then, I believe I am obliged to keep the whole law, but when I obliged to do it, it shows that I have no faith and trust in the Spirit for I still need the law as a standard of righteousness to become righteous.
But you would say that you keep and obey the law not for seeking righteousness but just as an obligation because God required it from you to do that. If so is the case, I believe you lied, but maybe because you didn’t understand. The Gospel is clear; those who keep and obey the law would be justified by the law and those who sinned under the law would be judge by the law.
So, you have only two options for being under the law’s jurisdiction; to be justified unto eternal life (even you may deny it saying you do not seek righteousness by the law) or to be condemned for your sin.
And Paul continued; those who are justified by the law don’t need Christ; Christ died in vain for him and he fell away from grace.
Did Paul say this statement only to those who seeks righteousness by the law, such as for the Jews unbelievers only? No, he meant it for Christ believers as well for these statements was said to the Galatians believers (Gentiles believers), who were lead by false brothers to keep and obey the law.
The point is; when you have the obligation to keep and obey the law, you are tied up to this obligation; you become a slave to obligation. And what is the purpose of an obligation to keep and obey the law? To be righteous by not breaking it and sinned!
Don’t say that you keep and obey the law to show and proof your love to God as according to John 14:15,21. Because according to me, to love God is not by doing what the law says but because I have a heart that is filled with the love of God, enabling me to love my fellowman WITHOUT coming under the law’s jurisdiction.
Therefore, I have no objection to whatever the law says for I am not under the law’s jurisdiction. Not keeping the Sabbath holy is not a sin, because I did not break the 4th commandment as according to “where there is no law, there is no transgression.”
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49230
02/23/04 06:42 AM
02/23/04 06:42 AM
|
|
|
James,
I've perfectly understood you. As far as you are concerned God's Law and Christ's Law are different. I don't recall Jesus at any time establishing His own Law different from God's Law. Paul whom, you extensively quote and misinterpret said that the Law is Good for without it he wouldn't have been aware of his sins. Now if we are not responsible to the law it means that it is impossible to sin (Because the law defines sin). Dividing the law into God's and Christ's means that God and Christ are not working together hence the two sets of laws. The prophet Jeremiah wrote that God's laws shall be written in our hearts. Can God's laws be written in our hearts and at the same time we live in opposition to God's Laws (God's laws and Christ's laws are the same because they are one). As far as I'm concerned Christ's Law (Love your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and Love your neighbour as yourself) is no different from God's Law. You should therefore tell me if some commandments were excluded and if so, which ones specifically. Tell us where God's law was abolished in favour of Christ's Law. And finally tell us what you think Christ Himself meant by "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. " Matthew 24:20
After all the flight was going to take place in the future after His death, ressurection and ascension.
Blessings,
EDWIN
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49231
02/23/04 09:31 AM
02/23/04 09:31 AM
|
|
|
James,
I have one final question for you. Do you belive that you by the power of the Holy Spirit are able to live in harmony with God's Law including the 4th commandment?
Blessings,
EDWIN
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49232
02/23/04 03:34 PM
02/23/04 03:34 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, you believe the Holy Spirit empowers you to live in harmony with the law of Jesus - not the law of God. You believe the law of Jesus replaced the law of God when He died on the cross. You believe only non-believers are under the juridiction of the law of God, and that only believers are under the jurisdiction of the law of Jesus.
You also believe the basic principle of loving God and mankind is the foundation of both the law of God and law of Jesus. You believe loving God and mankind fulfills the intent of both laws. You believe the only difference between both laws is that law of God requires physical sabbath keeping whereas the law of Jesus does not. You believe non-believers are required to observe the sabbath whereas believers are not.
You believe the difference between non-believers and believers is that non-believers are condemned because they are required to observe the sabbath whereas believers are not condemned because they are not required to observe the sabbath. You believe the burden of truth is to help people understand that observing the sabbath is a sin because it rejects the law of Jesus.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Daniel
7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Psalm
119:126 [It is] time for [thee], LORD, to work: [for] they have made void thy law.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49233
02/24/04 04:45 AM
02/24/04 04:45 AM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49234
02/24/04 05:52 AM
02/24/04 05:52 AM
|
|
|
Thanks Mike & Avalee,
People may try to color the truth, manipulate it, try to re-invent it but the truth will always remain the same. All ideas must be scrutinized by the scriptures as the unerring standard. May the truth of God prevail.
Blessings,
EDWIN
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49235
02/24/04 03:24 PM
02/24/04 03:24 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Most people seem to believe we must overcome one sin at a time, as if we can overcome this sin and still be guilty of that sin. But all sins are one sin - selfishness. Every sin comes under the same general heading of selfishness. If we are in Christ we are dead to sin. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin. There is no middle ground. No man can serve two masters. There is no such thing as partial birth conversions.
The idea that we must overcome one sin at a time is unbiblical and leads people to tolerate sin and selfishness rather than overcome it. Instead of resisting unto blood they excuse themselves by assuming there is time enough to overcome another day, so why worry about it now, besides their waitng for God to empower them to overcome - as if God is to blame for the frequent failure plan.
4T 384,385
"Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}
"Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {4T 385.1}
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49236
02/24/04 03:27 PM
02/24/04 03:27 PM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Thank you Edwin for you post. I am so saddened by people who think that they can come along and make so light of what Jesus has done for us by saying we do not have to obey God's commands anymore.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49237
02/27/04 11:33 AM
02/27/04 11:33 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Edwin.
You posted February 23, 2004 05:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James,
I have one final question for you. Do you belive that you by the power of the Holy Spirit are able to live in harmony with God's Law including the 4th commandment?
Unquote.
What is the principle of God’s law? Through faith in Christ and the Spirit I would produce fruits of the Spirit, I AM IN HARMONY WITH HEAVEN PRINCIPLE’ that is IN HARMONY with God’s law and qualifies me for heaven.
Read Galatians 5:22,23 whether fruits of the Spirit includes keeping Sabbath day holy as according to the 4th commandment.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49238
02/27/04 11:34 AM
02/27/04 11:34 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
I see that you are a good and sincere law keeper, I am sure if you keep it perfectly you will earn life through your obedience for the law would justify you.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49239
02/27/04 11:36 AM
02/27/04 11:36 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
You posted on February 24, 2004 11:24 AM
I see that you understand now that all sin is one sin: selfishness
And all righteousness is one righteousness: love your fellowman.
There is a middle ground; a time where you live with faith but according to the flesh, you have a dead faith and just produce deeds of the flesh. But when the time come you start to walk after the Spirit, your faith is alive and bears fruits of the Spirit.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49240
02/27/04 11:59 AM
02/27/04 11:59 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Avalee.
You wrote:
Thank you Edwin for you post. I am so saddened by people who think that they can come along and make so light of what Jesus has done for us by saying we do not have to obey God's commands anymore.
Unquote.
Just follow what the Gospel of Christ say:
The letter kills…….. the Ten Commandments is a ministry of condemnation that brought death” – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.
So, why should I keep a law that condemns, a law that is God’s means of condemnation to justify that all men are sinners and deserve to die? I would keep “love your fellowman as your self”, the law of liberty, the law that gives freedom, not the law that imprison me in sin.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49241
02/27/04 12:14 PM
02/27/04 12:14 PM
|
OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
Avalee.
I see that you are a good and sincere law keeper, I am sure if you keep it perfectly you will earn life through your obedience for the law would justify you.
In His love
James S
Iam a follower of Jesus my Lord and I with His help follow in His footsteps. Not the footsteps of anyone else or obey anyone else. I can not EARN anything as you like to put it...but if I truly love my Lord I will not make up false ways but surrender my heart to Him and do as He did. So what did HE do?
|
|
|
Re: Can we live a Spotless Life? Is it possible?
#49242
02/27/04 02:13 PM
02/27/04 02:13 PM
|
|
|
James,
Every time one speaks of the law you equate it to trying to earn salvation. Is the law and grace so diametrically opposite as you put it. If you are genuine then the law will be manifested through your life and that includes the 4th commandment. This doesn't mean that the law is the means to salvation. For your description of salvation to really work out you will have to delete significant portions of the scripture both in the old and new testament. You never answered my question but rather you re-interpreted it and answered it in your own terms. If by being saved the law is completely obliterated, how will we know when we fall into sin? On what basis will we repent and confess? If the law doesn't apply then what it means is that we are sinless and therefore don't need a savior (after all the law defines what sin is). Careful reading of the Bible will reveal that the law was never done away with, it is written in our hearts. Could it have been written in our hearts one commandement less? We know that Jesus' law is "Love Your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" which encompasses the Law Given to Moses at Sinai. If the law could have changed Jesus would have said so, but on the contrary He said he didn't come to abolish it. Paul also said by faith we don't make void the Law but instead we establish it. Can we establish the law by taking the law lightly or outrightly trampling on it? Not anywhere in the gospel of Jesus but in another gospel. As I told you the law is not a means to getting salvation but neither was it abolished, if it was please show where in the Bible.
Blessings,
Edwin
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
