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Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49509
04/01/05 11:27 PM
04/01/05 11:27 PM
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With respect to the SDA Church and our church's daily Christian living and witness, who is the focal point of the SDA church?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49510
04/02/05 12:44 AM
04/02/05 12:44 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 211
Ohio
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49511
04/02/05 12:46 AM
04/02/05 12:46 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I would hope Jesus! I would expect, for some, someone else
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49512
04/02/05 02:00 AM
04/02/05 02:00 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Jesus Christ and His Second coming.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49513
04/02/05 02:07 AM
04/02/05 02:07 AM
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Yes, Jesus Christ is obviously the focal point of the SDA Church, both in the church and in the home.
Some people, however, think that Ellen White is the focal point of the SDA Church. How would you respond to that allegation?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49514
04/02/05 02:14 AM
04/02/05 02:14 AM
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I would say that those who state that Ellen White is the focal point of the SDA Church are correct.
The spirituality of the SDA Church is governed completely by the perspective of EGW.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49515
04/02/05 02:32 AM
04/02/05 02:32 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Wouldn't that be putting EGW abouve the Bible and ultametly God?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49516
04/02/05 03:10 AM
04/02/05 03:10 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Thats right Dave it would be. Yet the focal point of the Seventh-Day Adventist church is going out to all the world and letting people know that Jesus is coming, and introducing them to Christ. This is what I have seen and am witnessing for the past few years prior and after being a member of the SDA church.
God Bless and Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49517
04/02/05 03:45 AM
04/02/05 03:45 AM
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Quote: posted by Daryl| Some people, however, think that Ellen White is the focal point of the SDA Church. |
Most people that I’ve come across who think this are former Adventists or are non-Adventists who have a negative view of us. They must get this idea from somewhere, either misunderstood or not.
Quote: posted by myarsman
| I would say that those who state that Ellen White is the focal point of the SDA Church are correct. |
If I could judge just from my own sphere of associates, this claim is unfounded. The pastors I have known have ALWAYS preached Jesus Christ—not EGW. Her writings are often quoted, but shouldn’t that be expected from a group of people who believe that she’s a messenger of God? I have come across a *few* Adventists who behave as if the messenger is the focal point, compared with most whose focal point is Christ.
As for the “spirituality of the SDA Church” being governed completely by the perspective of EGW, I’d like for this point to be clarified before I comment further. How do you mean this? Please define “spirituality” as you mean it for Adventists.
Jeff
Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49518
04/02/05 04:04 AM
04/02/05 04:04 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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You couldn't make it any clearer than that Jeff ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) God Bless & Happy Sabbath, -Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49519
04/02/05 08:04 AM
04/02/05 08:04 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Yes, Jesus Christ is obviously the focal point of the SDA Church, both in the church and in the home.
Some people, however, think that Ellen White is the focal point of the SDA Church. How would you respond to that allegation?
Darryl,
Why not answere them with an appropriate EW quote? ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
What about the cases when it seems like "by two or three quotes by EW shall all things be judged"? This seems to happen at this forum from time to time...
/Thomas
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49520
04/02/05 05:58 PM
04/02/05 05:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff:
As for the “spirituality of the SDA Church” being governed completely by the perspective of EGW, I’d like for this point to be clarified before I comment further. How do you mean this? Please define “spirituality” as you mean it for Adventists.
Those "truths" that the SDA Church currently holds to be truth have been first " ratified " by the testimony of EGW.
If any new truth/perspective is presented to the Church for review, it is immediately compared to the "perspective" presented of EGW as to its validity. If it agrees with her "perspective", then it is accepted as "Truth"....If it disagrees with her "perspective", even in the smallest detail, then it is rejected as "false".
Example: When did the "War in Heaven" take place whereby Satan was banished to this earth?
The Bible clearly shows the "War in Heaven" as taking place after Christ ascended to Heaven..See Revelation 12.
EGW states that the "War in Heaven" took place at a time closely after Satan sinned.
The SDA church accepts this "perspective" as "Truth" even though there is no other Biblical reference to support it.
The "spirituality" of the SDA Church is governed by the "perspective" of EGW.
Just look through the different threads on this forum. Almost all participants who are vigorously defended current SDA doctrines/beliefs/truths use quotes from EGW to support their positions.
Secondly, I have not come across anyone who has ventured to state that they believe as they do, because God, through the " direct influence" of His Holy Spirit has shown them what is Truth. Mostly they refer to EGW as the authority because she was supposed to have received her "perspective" from God.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49521
04/02/05 07:13 PM
04/02/05 07:13 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Is that how you keep the Sabbath Holy Thomas by teasing people and mocking them?
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
-Willy
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49522
04/02/05 07:21 PM
04/02/05 07:21 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
You know what is interesting. A very long time I admired people who could tell me about Jesus from the Bible. Always wondered at where they got the skill to be able to preach such a wonderful message.
Mind you I would read my Bible once in a while when I got bored, and went to church once in a while, as I prefered to do other things that are not Christian.
One night I decided to read whatever pages in Revelation, and thats where I read about the war in heaven, but the more I read it and came to the part where the angel said woe to the inhabitants of the earth a light bulb went off in my head. It read as if that part of Revelation did a 360 earth history wise.
I understood that the devil was in heaven as Lucifer, but he was cast out, and when he was cast out he came to the earth like the Bible says. I put 1+1 together and came to the conclusion that this is when he must have tempted Eve. No EGW goggles, no ph.d required, just a desire to learn why I was always hurting.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath.
-Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49523
04/02/05 07:56 PM
04/02/05 07:56 PM
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Will,
I find your commentary very interesting.
How did you conclude that there was "War in Heaven" at the time of the fall of Satan and not after "Christ's Ascension" as it is presented in Revelation 12. Please keep in mind that this is the only place in the Bible that speaks of the "War in Heaven".
I see a very clear sequence of events as presented in Revelation 12.
1. The woman with 12 stars is in labor to give birth.
2. The dragon brings his angels to this earth in an attempt to kill the child to be born.
3. The man-child is born.
4. The man-child is taken to Heaven.
5. The woman flees into the wilderness.
6. There is war in Heaven and Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven to this earth.
7. The dragon pursues the woman in an attempt to destroy her.
The sequence is very clear and the interpretation is even clearer.
1. The woman represents Israel.
2. The dragon represents Satan and his attempts to destroy Jesus at His birth. Satan brings his angels to this earth to enter into conflict with Jesus.
3. The man-child is Jesus that was born a Jew. He lived on this earth until His mission was completed and then He ascended to Heaven to be with His Father, God.
4. After Jesus' ascension, the early Christian Church, comprised primarily of Jews experienced phenomenal growth. The Jews attempted to quell the expansion of the church, through some persecution.(Note: This persecution was of little significance in comparison to the latter persecution meted out by the Roman Empire.)
5. After Christ's ascension to Heaven, the unfallen beings understand, once and for all, the true nature of evil and there is "War in Heaven" whereby Satan and his angels are banished from Heaven to this earth.
6. Satan attempts to destroy the Christian Church through extreme persecution meted out by the Pagan Roman Empire.
This is the clear sequence that I see from the study of Revelation 12. Of course, this disagrees with your perspective and that of EGW.
The one question that I present to you is this......Which brings us back to the primary subject of this thread....
Is your perspective confirmed by the Holy Spirit or do you believe that since EGW supports it, then it must be true?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49524
04/02/05 08:10 PM
04/02/05 08:10 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
When I was reading Revelation and read about the war in heaven, then read at how satan was cast to the earth, and how the angel said woe to the inahbitants of the earth etc etc, the devil has great wrath and all that the following came to mind.
1. Well the world does suck royally, and the hurt I am feeling has got to be the enemy's wrath.
2. The devil tempted eve so he somehow had to have come to the earth.
3. The Bible must be the Word of God!
That encompasses what I learned, and when my interest was heightened to want to be a Christian, and give my life to Christ. Its confirmed, signed sealed delivered. Anything else you want to QA and cross examine from my testimony?
God Bless and Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49525
04/02/05 08:12 PM
04/02/05 08:12 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
Jesus has held my hand and led me this far in my life and teaching me.Youre a smart man you figure it out.
God Bless and Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49526
04/02/05 08:47 PM
04/02/05 08:47 PM
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Will,
I apologize if I have offended you by my remarks.
The point that I am trying to make is this.....
Does the SDA Church's understanding of Truth rely primarily upon the perspective presented by EGW or does it rely upon the "direct influence of Holy Spirit" to lead them into all truth?
You stated that through your own personal study of Revelation 12, which was not influenced by EGW in the least , you concluded that the "War in Heaven" took place at the time of Satan's Fall. ( I am also assuming that you had never heard anyone else present the perspective that the "War in Heaven" took place at the time of the Fall of Satan.)
As I have mentioned earlier, my understanding of the timing of the "War in Heaven" took place after "Christ's Ascension".
Now I am not questioning God's leading in your life, but I do wonder if He lead you to your current understanding of Revelation 12. I truly believe that He lead me to my current understanding of the fulfillment of this prophecy.
If you can honestly state that God lead you to your understanding of this scripture, then the only conclusion that I can arrive at is that we do not serve the same God, because God is not the "author of confusion".
One other point.....
Does the Bible state that it is the "Word of God"?
From my reading of John 1, it would appear that Jesus is the "Word of God".
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49527
04/02/05 09:02 PM
04/02/05 09:02 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
Fron what I have seen the SDA Church follows Jesus Christ, and Jesus said that He would send us His Holy Spirit to tech us. I do not see preaching Ellen White each and every Sabbath as if she were a deity. That view comes from people who are former adventists or nonadventists as was mentioned in the thread.
I cannot attend every SDA church globally, but I am speaking of the church I am am member of, and when I go away on vacation I receive a blessing for hearing the Gospel on the Seventh Day.
God Bless and Happay Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49528
04/02/05 09:05 PM
04/02/05 09:05 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
You are right Jesus is the Word of God, and Jesus also told the Pharisees that you think you have eternal life reading this, but it testifies of Me. So when I read it I made the association that this book is inspired by God to show me Jesus Christ. I hope this has more than answered your question you had asked me.
God Bless and Happy Sabbath,
-Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49529
04/02/05 09:36 PM
04/02/05 09:36 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Bob,
Do you think the focal point of the Seventh-Day Adventist church is Jesus Christ, and preaching the Gospel to prepare people for His soon return?
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
-Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49530
04/02/05 10:56 PM
04/02/05 10:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Bob,
Fron what I have seen the SDA Church follows Jesus Christ, and Jesus said that He would send us His Holy Spirit to tech us. I do not see preaching Ellen White each and every Sabbath as if she were a deity. That view comes from people who are former adventists or nonadventists as was mentioned in the thread.
I cannot attend every SDA church globally, but I am speaking of the church I am am member of, and when I go away on vacation I receive a blessing for hearing the Gospel on the Seventh Day.
Will,
I did not state that the SDA Church does not preach the gospel. Almost all Christian churches in existence today preach the Gospel. The SDA Church is not unique in this aspect.
Nor do I question the spiritual experience that you may receive when you worship at any SDA Church that you may attend.
What I do question is the SDA Church's perspective of Truth.
Is the current SDA perspective of Truth based upon the collective spiritual experiences of its membership whereby God, through His Holy Spirit, has imparted to them an understanding of what is truth?
Or.....
Is the current SDA perspective of Truth based upon the collective acceptance of its membership that EGW is the authority to be relied upon in its understanding of Truth?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49531
04/02/05 11:22 PM
04/02/05 11:22 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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What do you think it is Bob? many have already answered except you.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
-Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49532
04/02/05 11:34 PM
04/02/05 11:34 PM
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Will,
I do believe that I have answered that question in previous posts.
The SDA Church collective accepts truth only as it has been presented by EGW.
Any perspective that is presented that conflicts with the perspective presented by EGW is rejected.
I have shared one example. Would you like others?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49533
04/03/05 05:27 AM
04/03/05 05:27 AM
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Bob, why should anyone want to go contrary to the point of view given by an inspired prophet of God?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49534
04/03/05 05:27 AM
04/03/05 05:27 AM
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Quote: from myarsman| The SDA Church collective accepts truth only as it has been presented by EGW. |
What of subjects that were not covered by Mrs. White in sufficient detail as to derive a clear doctrine? For example, look at the debate on women ordination. But where she gives a clear voice, I see no problem with respecting her counsel.
Quote: from SDA Fundamental Beliefs
17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) |
So, what’s the issue here? Either you believe she was divinely inspired or not. If you believe she wasn’t, then I can see your point, but as I mentioned earlier, it shouldn’t seem out of place for a group of people who believe a person was divinely inspired, to respect that person’s writings as doctrinally authoritative on some level. And that certainly does not mean that believing so demonstrates the absence of the H.S. in one’s study any more than applying Paul’s writings as a “truth” filter.
Jeff
Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49535
04/03/05 09:21 AM
04/03/05 09:21 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Will
Maybe teasing people is more inapropriate than engaging in lengthy arguments for sabbath activity, maybe you can give your oppinion on that.
I wonder if EW may be more well studied than for instance Habackuk or Sakarja?
/Thomas
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49536
04/03/05 10:23 AM
04/03/05 10:23 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Sure I'll give my opinion. Teasing is very lite, what you said was more along the lines of mocking. Everyone has a right to express themselves of course, but you need to use your head when doing so. Giving a reason for what you believe is in the Bible.
Whats on your mind Thomas?
God Bless,
-Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49537
04/05/05 08:47 AM
04/05/05 08:47 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 211
Ohio
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When we first came into contact with the SDA message we were living in NM. We began attending a great little church there, and the members studied with us over several months before we were baptized. It wasn't until shortly before we were baptized that we were introduced to Mrs. White's writings. It threw me into confusion and doubt, and I did not want to accept. But as I read, I realized that the writings agreed with everything I had already learned in the Bible. So for us, Jesus was the focal point of our faith.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49538
04/05/05 02:48 PM
04/05/05 02:48 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
With respect to the SDA Church and our church's daily Christian living and witness, who is the focal point of the SDA church?
If Jesus really is the "focal point" of the SDA church, then that would explain why so many members are inactive, why so many members do not spend time seeking and saving the lost (according to their special giftedness). I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is obvious that most members just come to church on sabbath, and that's about it. Which is why I'm questioning whether or not Jesus really is the focal point of the SDA church.
Jesus said, "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also." John 14:12. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. His focus was not on Himself, but on saving souls. It stands to reason, therefore, that a follower of Jesus will be actively involved in doing the same. Which implies, then, that the focal point of the SDA church should be lost souls. Leading lost souls to Jesus is the gospel commission.
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49539
04/05/05 02:56 PM
04/05/05 02:56 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Regarding the SOP as the focal point of the SDA church. In some ways Bob is right, which is why Sister White penned the following prophecies:
LDE 177, 178
One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.--3SM 84 (1903). {LDE 177.4}
The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.--1SM 48 (1890). {LDE 177.5}
The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies. . . . This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life.--3SM 83 (1890). {LDE 178.1}
It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.--4T 211. {LDE 178.2}
"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God." Satan knows that he cannot deceive and ensnare God's remnant people so long as they continue to trust in the SOP. So, Bob is right, but for totally different reasons. Beware Bob. It is the work of Satan to make of none effect the SOP.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49540
04/05/05 06:22 PM
04/05/05 06:22 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 211
Ohio
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But if Jesus isn't the focal point of our faith, we won't even have the ability to care for anyone else or what happens to them. There are plenty of people in the world who care, supposedly, for other people, and fight for the rights of this group or that group, but show real contempt and dislike for anyone who doesn't see it their way. If Jesus is truly the center of our faith, we won't need any prompting to care about others - all others; it's just the natural result of being with Jesus. Perhaps much of the inactivity is due to a lack of connection with Jesus.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49541
04/06/05 01:47 AM
04/06/05 01:47 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I think Jesus' focus was on His father and what His father had for Him to do. To me, the focal point is Jesus; this is what creates a need to help others. He was to be, amoung other things, our example. His focus was on His fahter's business, and our focus should be on our intersessor to the Father. EGW said that Jesus could hardly feel the pain of the crusifiction because the fain of not having the connection with his father was so great.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49542
04/06/05 02:29 AM
04/06/05 02:29 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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The mission, the purpose, of the SDA church is to seek and save the lost, to live a holy life, to lead souls to Jesus. Nothing must be allowed to distract us from this high calling.
The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fulness and His sufficiency. The members of the church, those whom He has called out of darkness into His marvelous light, are to show forth His glory.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 9. {ChS 15.1}
By His own life Christ has paid for your earnest, hearty cooperation. If you do not work as faithful missionaries, you are untrue to your trust, and you disappoint your Saviour. . . . {TDG 370.1}
It is His plan that men are to work for their fellow men.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 109. {ChS 7.4}
To save souls should be the life work of every one who professes Christ. --Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 53. {ChS 10.1}
If we are not willing to make special sacrifices in order to save souls that are ready to perish, how can we be counted worthy to enter into the city of God?--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 103. {ChS 8.1}
In order to enter into His joy,--the joy of seeing souls redeemed by His sacrifice,--we must participate in His labors for their redemption.--The Desire of Ages, p. 142. {ChS 8.3}
With almost impatient eagerness the angels wait for our co-operation; for man must be the channel to communicate with man. --The Desire of Ages, p. 297. {ChS 9.1}
We must be laborers together with God; for God will not complete His work without human agencies.--Review and Herald, March 1, 1887. {ChS 9.2}
Every soul whom Christ has rescued is called to work in His name for the saving of the lost. --Christ's Object Lessons, p. 191. {ChS 10.6}
Those who have united with the Lord in the covenant of service are under bonds to unite with Him in the great, grand work of soul-saving.--Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 19. {ChS 11.4}
Long has God waited for the spirit of service to take possession of the whole church, so that every one shall be working for Him according to his ability.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 111. {ChS 11.7}
You are guilty before God if you do not make every effort possible to dispense this living water to others.--Historical Sketches, p. 291. {ChS 12.4}
We are not, as Christians, doing one-twentieth part that we might do in winning souls to Christ.--Review and Herald, Aug. 23, 1881. {ChS 12.5}
It is our work to reveal to men the gospel of their salvation. Every enterprise in which we engage should be a means to this end.--The Ministry of Healing, p. 148. {ChS 13.1}
The Lord holds the church responsible for the souls of those whom they might be the means of saving.--Historical Sketches, p. 291. {ChS 13.3}
The greatest work, the noblest effort, in which men can engage, is to point sinners to the Lamb of God. {GW 18.3}
The servants of Christ are in a large measure responsible for the well-being and the salvation of the world. {Mar 99.2}
Do not disappoint Him who so loved you that He gave His life to make it possible for you to be co-laborers with God. {MYP 149.2}
Men are to be co-laborers with God in the salvation of their own souls, and then make earnest, persevering, untiring efforts to save those who are ready to perish (Letter 22, 1898). {6BC 1078.8}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49543
04/06/05 02:33 AM
04/06/05 02:33 AM
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Ohio
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And having our eyes on Jesus prevents this how? It is rather like the song, "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus."
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49544
04/06/05 05:11 AM
04/06/05 05:11 AM
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SDA
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quote:
Perhaps much of the inactivity is due to a lack of connection with Jesus.
Most people seem to feel like if they "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" that they've done their duty. But in reality they aren't doing their duty unless they regularly help others to turn their eyes upon Jesus. If saving souls isn't the primary focus of a Church, then it isn't a Christ-centered church.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49545
04/06/05 11:57 AM
04/06/05 11:57 AM
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Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
If saving souls isn't the primary focus of a Church, then it isn't a Christ-centerd church.
But to be Christ-centerd, we must have our focus on Christ. That is what makes us want to whitness.
[ April 06, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49546
04/06/05 02:45 PM
04/06/05 02:45 PM
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Dave, perhaps you're right, but it would be nice if you would provide some inspired quotes to support your assertion. You seem to be disputing the idea that the primary focus of an SDA Church should be leading lost souls to Jesus.
DA 416
Jesus did not count heaven a place to be desired while we were lost. He left the heavenly courts for a life of reproach and insult, and a death of shame. He who was rich in heaven's priceless treasure, became poor, that through His poverty we might be rich. We are to follow in the path He trod. {DA 416.3}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49547
04/06/05 05:53 PM
04/06/05 05:53 PM
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I would tend to say that leading souls to Jesus happens because we focus on him. It would take a while to come up with some quotes, but I do have an example. People that do not know Jesus, for whatever reason, do not lead people to Jesus. Peope tend more to lead people to whom they admire and love. For us, it has to be Jesus.
You would say that those who focus on the pope want to lead people to the pope. If we focus on Jesus, we want to lead people to Jesus.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49548
04/06/05 06:33 PM
04/06/05 06:33 PM
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Leading lost souls to Jesus is focusing on Jesus. The only way we can truly grow in grace is if we are actively winning souls to Jesus. Nothing can draw us closer to Jesus than seeking and saving the lost. The best way to grow our relationship to Jesus is to work as He did, to sacrifice our time, talent and treasure to woo and win souls.
Matthew
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
SC 101
The life must be like Christ's life--between the mountain and the multitude. He who does nothing but pray will soon cease to pray, or his prayers will become a formal routine. {SC 101.1}
SC 80
If you will go to work as Christ designs that His disciples shall, and win souls for Him, you will feel the need of a deeper experience and a greater knowledge in divine things, and will hunger and thirst after righteousness. You will plead with God, and your faith will be strengthened, and your soul will drink deeper drafts at the well of salvation. Encountering opposition and trials will drive you to the Bible and prayer. You will grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ, and will develop a rich experience. {SC 80.1}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49549
04/06/05 06:36 PM
04/06/05 06:36 PM
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Ohio
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It sounds like we agree, just looking at the same thing from a different perspective.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49550
04/07/05 01:44 AM
04/07/05 01:44 AM
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quote:
Who is the focal point of the SDA church?
Lost souls!
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49551
04/07/05 02:27 AM
04/07/05 02:27 AM
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Ohio
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49552
04/07/05 02:33 AM
04/07/05 02:33 AM
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Ohio
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quote:
You must not have any other gods except me.
Exodus 20:3
I've always understood that anything that we place before God becomes an idol or a god. Case in point, do we go to church each week to worship lost souls, or do we go to worship God? If we are to be worshiping God, then we must enevatably be foucusing on Him.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49553
04/07/05 05:15 AM
04/07/05 05:15 AM
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Dave, according to the many quotes I've posted, the primary reason Jesus raised up the SDA church is to proclaim the 3AMs, to seek and save the lost. It is the sole purpose of our existence. It has nothing to do with worshipping lost souls at church.
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49554
04/07/05 05:50 AM
04/07/05 05:50 AM
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And acording to the Bible, God is jellous for our attention. If we do not have our focus on Jesus, we do not have a desier to tell anyone about him.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49555
04/07/05 02:53 PM
04/07/05 02:53 PM
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Dave, please produce an inspired quote that refutes the multitude of quotes I've already shared. The focus of the SDA church, as a body of believers, is lost souls.
ChS 15
The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 9. {ChS 15.1}
FE 217
How few have qualified themselves in the science of saving souls! How few understand the work that should be done in building up the church, in communicating light to those who sit in darkness! {FE 217.2}
LS 187
I wrote out pointed testimonies not only for those who had erred greatly and were out of the church, but for those members in the church who had erred greatly in not going in search of the lost sheep... The church that engages successfully in this work, is a happy church. {LS 187.1, 5}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49556
04/07/05 02:55 PM
04/07/05 02:55 PM
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LHU 210
[Jesus] demands cooperation on the part of His followers in rescuing lost sinners… Why is it that the members of the church are so willing to let the whole burden rest upon the shoulders of the minister? How great a mistake is this, since every subject of grace is to have a part to act in saving those that are lost. {LHU 210.2}
To every man Christ has given his work, and personal efforts must be put forth to save the perishing… He made the church the depositary of sacred truth. He left His church a stewardship of sacred truth, and it is the work of the church to carry forward His mission of saving the world. {LHU 210.3}
All heaven is interested in the work of saving the lost. Angels watch with intense interest to see who will leave the ninety and nine, and go out in tempest and storm and rain into the wild desert to seek the lost sheep. The lost are all around us, perishing and sadly neglected. But they are of value to God, the purchase of the blood of Christ. . . . We are to seek to save those that are lost. We are to search for the one lost sheep, and bring him back to the fold; and this represents personal effort (Review and Herald, June 30, 1896). {LHU 210.4}
PM 285
What are you doing, my Christian brothers and sisters? Can you say that as far as it was in your power, you have declared, or represented, Christ and His love for fallen humanity to those who know Him not? If you have confined your efforts mostly to those who are of the same faith as yourself, what about seeking those who are lost? If the curtain could be rolled back, you would see souls perishing in their sins, and the church idle, indolent, unsympathetic, absorbed in selfish interests, and caring not whether souls are saved or lost, so long as they themselves can have an easy time, and be secure in the hope of salvation. But no one will ever enter heaven who is not a laborer together with God.--RH, Feb. 12, 19, 1895. {PM 285.2}
3T 198
Although they profess to be servants of God they are serving their own interest and loving their own pleasure, and souls are perishing around them. These souls can truly say:" No man careth for my soul." The church have neglected to improve the privileges and blessings within their reach, and through their neglect of duty have lost golden opportunities of winning souls to Christ. {3T 198.2}
6T 422, 423
Their lack of interest in the salvation of souls showed that they had lost their first love; for none can love God with the whole heart, mind, soul, and strength without loving those for whom Christ died… {6T 422.2}
Is not this experience of the Ephesian church repeated in the experience of the church of this generation? How is the church of today, that has received a knowledge of the truth of God, using this knowledge?... {6T 422.3}
Brethren and sisters who have long claimed to believe the truth, I ask you individually, Have your practices been in harmony with the light, the privileges, and the opportunities granted you of heaven? This is a serious question… {6T 423.1}
But what are the members of the church doing that they should be designated "laborers together with God"? 1 Corinthians 3:9. Where do we see travail of soul?.. {6T 423.2}
TM 198
Unless the church awakes and attends to her post of duty, God will charge the loss of souls to her account. I have a deep interest that the work of God shall advance. {TM 198.3}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49557
04/07/05 04:00 PM
04/07/05 04:00 PM
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Ohio
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I am not denighing that we must seek to save lost sols. All I am saying is that it is not a human nature quality to want to do so. How many people that do not focus on Jesus want to lead people to Jesus? Who do we worship? Wo do we praise? Who do we pray to? quote:
You must not worship or serve any idol, because I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. If you hate me, I will punish your children, and even your grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
Exodus 20:5
quote:
Don't worship any other god, because I, the Lord, the Jealous One, am a jealous God.
Exodus 34:14
quote:
The Lord your God is a jealous God, like a fire that burns things up.
Deut. 4:24
quote:
I am jealous over you with a jealousy that comes from God. I promised to give you to Christ, as your only husband. I want to give you as his pure bride.
2 Corinthians 11:12
quote:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27
quote:
Whoever serves me must follow me. Then my servant will be with me everywhere I am. My Father will honor anyone who serves me.
John 12:26
There are really no quotes needed hear. It is just plain common sence. To lead someone to a person, we must be in tune with the person we want to lead them to. Everything Jesus did was through his father. Everything we do must be through His Son.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49558
04/07/05 07:28 PM
04/07/05 07:28 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
So they moved the stone away from the entrance. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you heard me. I know that you always hear me, but I said these things because of the people here around me. I want them to believe that you sent me."
John 11:41 & 42
Jesus focusing on His Father.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49559
04/07/05 07:31 PM
04/07/05 07:31 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Ohio
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quote:
"Father, if you are willing, take away this cupn of suffering. But do what you want, not what I want."
Luke 22:42
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49560
04/07/05 07:38 PM
04/07/05 07:38 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
On the mountain they saw Jesus and worshiped him, but some of them did not believe it was really Jesus. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All power in heaven and on earth is given to me. So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:17 - 20
Any and all power we have is given of God so wecannot save anyone without him. We arte to baptize people in the name of God. We must teach everyhting that Jesus did, therefore, we must have focus on Jesus.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49561
04/07/05 07:41 PM
04/07/05 07:41 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
You gave the Son power over all people so that the Son could give eternal life to all those you gave him.
John 17:2
All of Jesus's power came from the father.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49562
04/07/05 07:43 PM
04/07/05 07:43 PM
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The focal point of the SDA Church should really be two-fold; on Christ in worship and on mankind in ministry.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49563
04/07/05 07:44 PM
04/07/05 07:44 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
You know about Jesus from Nazareth, that God gave him the Holy Spirit and power. You know how Jesus went everywhere doing good and healing those who were ruled by the devil, because God was with him.
Acts 10:38
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49564
04/07/05 07:46 PM
04/07/05 07:46 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
With God's power working in us, God can do much, much more than anything we can ask or imagine.
Eph. 3:20
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49565
04/07/05 07:48 PM
04/07/05 07:48 PM
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quote:
God will strengthen you with his own great power so that you will not give up when troubles come, but you will be patient.
Col. 1:11
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49566
04/07/05 07:49 PM
04/07/05 07:49 PM
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Ohio
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quote:
The Son reflects the glory of God and shows exactly what God is like. He holds everything together with his powerful word. When the Son made people clean from their sins, he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven.
Hebrews 1:3
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49567
04/08/05 05:16 AM
04/08/05 05:16 AM
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Dave, I'm glad you're not denying that the focus of the SDA church, as commissioned by God, is the salvation of lost souls. But, I also happen to agree with Sister White when she wrote seeking and saving lost souls is what draws us closer to Jesus, what causes us to realize our need of study and prayer, more than anything else we can do. Winning people to Jesus is what causes us to love Him more, what causes us to want to win more souls. Not the other way around (i.e., the more we love Him the more we will want to share His love with others). It is soul winning that causes us to love Jesus more.
SC 80
If you will go to work as Christ designs that His disciples shall, and win souls for Him, you will feel the need of a deeper experience and a greater knowledge in divine things, and will hunger and thirst after righteousness. You will plead with God, and your faith will be strengthened, and your soul will drink deeper drafts at the well of salvation. Encountering opposition and trials will drive you to the Bible and prayer. You will grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ, and will develop a rich experience. {SC 80.1}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49568
04/08/05 05:30 AM
04/08/05 05:30 AM
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But wouldn't we need to focus on God to get to that first point? According to the Bible texts I quoted, we need God to give us the power and ability to witness. How can he impower us if we do not focus on him?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49569
04/08/05 02:42 PM
04/08/05 02:42 PM
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This thread is talking about the corporate body of believers - the SDA church. Yes, of course, each member of the SDA church must have a personal relationship with Jesus, otherwise it would be impossible to share Him with others, to lead them to Jesus. But the primary duty, mission, purpose, etc, of the SDA church is to seek and save the lost. It is what causes the church to grow into a healthy tree bearing much fruit.
DA 389
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated. {DA 389.3}
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49570
04/08/05 06:37 PM
04/08/05 06:37 PM
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Well that would be correctly asked as, "what is the mission of the SDA church?"
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49571
04/08/05 09:22 PM
04/08/05 09:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
This thread is talking about the corporate body of believers - the SDA church. Yes, of course, each member of the SDA church must have a personal relationship with Jesus, otherwise it would be impossible to share Him with others, to lead them to Jesus.........
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement of yours.
I would be very interested in reading your description of what a "personal relationship with Jesus" entails.
I have discovered in my own "personal relationship with Jesus" that it is possible to walk and talk with Him as a personal friend. I speak to Him and He speaks to me.....directly.
If I have a question as to what is "Truth" or not, all I need to do is ask Him "directly" and He leads me to the Truth..."directly". I have discovered that I can now depend on Him, solely, for my understanding of Truth, because He is "Truth" and the "Source of all Truth".
Jesus is my focus.
If someone presents something to me that they claim to be "Truth", I need only take it to Jesus, and He informs me as to its validity or error.
If someone claims to be a prophet and claims that they have received messages from God, I only need to ask Jesus, directly, and He informs me as to whether they are His prophets.....or not.
Yes, my focus rests entirely upon Jesus....and Jesus alone.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49572
04/08/05 10:01 PM
04/08/05 10:01 PM
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Amen Bob, without Christ we are nothing.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49573
04/09/05 04:47 AM
04/09/05 04:47 AM
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Bob, please clarify what you mean by "directly". I get the feeling you mean Jesus speaks to you personally, in the same way my wife and I speak to each other - audibly and in person. I also noticed that you didn't say Jesus points you to the truth in the Bible. Does Jesus bypass the Bible when He speaks to you "directly"?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49574
04/09/05 01:01 PM
04/09/05 01:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Bob, please clarify what you mean by "directly". I get the feeling you mean Jesus speaks to you personally, in the same way my wife and I speak to each other - audibly and in person. I also noticed that you didn't say Jesus points you to the truth in the Bible. Does Jesus bypass the Bible when He speaks to you "directly"?
Jesus speaks to me directly through His Holy Spirit which is in a much different then the way that you and your wife speak to each other.
Jesus speaks to us through the "Spirit" while we speak to each other through the "Flesh".
When an individual surrenders themselves to Jesus and enter into a personal relationship with Him, it is of the utmost importance that this individual seek to "discern" the voice of the Holy Spirit as it speaks to them "directly". This comes as a result of our spending time in quiet meditation when we have secluded ourselves from outside distractions that would interfere with our ability to hear the voice of Jesus speaking to us.
When we are "focused" upon Jesus we will recognize His Voice when He speaks to us.
Does Jesus quote "Scripture" when He speaks to me?
Not usually, but I do find that the things that He says to me, when He speaks to me, are some of the same things that He has spoken to the characters portrayed in the Bible. In other words, Jesus does not contradict anything that He has said in the past, when He speaks to me.
You see......Jesus "is" the Word of God.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49575
04/09/05 02:50 PM
04/09/05 02:50 PM
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quote:
Does Jesus quote "Scripture" when He speaks to me? Not usually ...
Bob, I find this answer more than disturbing. You regularly disagree with Sister White, as evidenced by things you have posted on various threads throughout MSDAOL. Please varify this again, here and now - Do you agree with the 27 SDA beliefs and doctrines, as outlined and described in detail, in the SOP? Do you trust the "voice" of Jesus, that speaks to you directly, more than you do the SOP?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49576
04/09/05 06:50 PM
04/09/05 06:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
[QUOTE] Please varify this again, here and now - Do you agree with the 27 SDA beliefs and doctrines, as outlined and described in detail, in the SOP? Do you trust the "voice" of Jesus, that speaks to you directly, more than you do the SOP?
Mountain Man,
I will answer your questions if you first answer mine.
Do you hear the "voice of Jesus" as He speaks directly to you?
If you do, does He tell you that all of the 27 fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church are based upon Truth and does He also tell you that EGW was given the SOP?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49577
04/09/05 07:06 PM
04/09/05 07:06 PM
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Honestly, I cannot say I have ever heard the voice of Jesus. I have felt strong impressions, but have never actually heard a voice. I have had dreams where angels spoke to me, but not Jesus or the Father.
I have thoroughly studied the Bible and the SOP and I am convinced, beyond doubt, that the 27 fundamental SDA doctrines are right and true, and that Sister White did, indeed, possess the spirit of prophecy, and that her inspired insights are as valid as those recorded in the Bible.
Now, your turn.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49578
04/09/05 08:09 PM
04/09/05 08:09 PM
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Did the impressions that you received or the dreams that you had reinforce your acceptance that the 27 beliefs were Truth and that EGW had received the SOP?
It would appear that you have relied primarily upon your "own understanding" as to what is Truth. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)
As for me.....
Through the direct instruction that I have received from Jesus , I have been able to discern the validity and errors of the 27 beliefs. Also, He has enabled me to see that EGW does not pass the tests of a true "prophet of God".
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49579
04/09/05 09:12 PM
04/09/05 09:12 PM
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This discussion is about the focal point of the SDA Church and not about what is truth and what isn't truth, therefore, let us not divert into talking neither about the 27 fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church, nor about EGW as a true prophet of God. There are other topics reserved in other forums of MSDAOL for things like that.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49580
04/09/05 09:14 PM
04/09/05 09:14 PM
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This discussion is about the focal point of the SDA Church and not about what is truth and what isn't truth, therefore, let us not divert into talking neither about the 27 fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church, nor about EGW as a true prophet of God. There are other topics reserved in other forums of MSDAOL for things like that.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49581
04/09/05 09:40 PM
04/09/05 09:40 PM
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Bob, thank you for being honest and open about your thoughts on Adventism and Sister White. It clears up some of the questions I had regarding your views.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49582
04/09/05 09:46 PM
04/09/05 09:46 PM
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Daryl, it should be obvious by now, in light of all the SOP quotes, that the "focal point" of the SDA church is the same as Jesus' focus, that is, lost souls.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49583
04/10/05 12:17 AM
04/10/05 12:17 AM
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And what of Jesus' focus on His Father?
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49584
04/10/05 01:37 AM
04/10/05 01:37 AM
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Jesus' final, parting words were:
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Acts
1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
In another place Jesus said:
Matthew
24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49585
04/11/05 03:13 AM
04/11/05 03:13 AM
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BTW, Dave, I forgot to point out that all the scripture quotes you posted, where Jesus was focusing on His Father, were things He said to, or in the hearing of, the lost souls He was seeking and saving. Which is exactly what SDA church is supposed to do too. Our focal point is lost souls, whom we must point to Jesus as their only source of salvation.
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49586
04/11/05 03:57 AM
04/11/05 03:57 AM
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That was exactly my piont. In seeking to save the lost, we are focusing on Christ!
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Re: Who is the Focal Point of the SDA Church?
#49587
04/10/05 04:06 PM
04/10/05 04:06 PM
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quote:
Posted by Mountain Man on Page 2, April 06, 2005 at 3:33 PM
Leading lost souls to Jesus is focusing on Jesus.
By George, I think we are in agreement, Mr. Hoover.
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