We often hear of Ellen G. White being referred as The Lesser Light leading us to The Greater Light.

What is this Lesser Light?

What is this Greater Light?

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl Fawcett :)

I prepared this post for one of the other Adventist forums where reference is often made to Ellen White being a lesser light.

Because this statement is so often alluded to on all the Adventist forums, but never actually quoted, I am placing the statement here as it is found in its orginial source, The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 20, 1903. It is time to find out just what Sister White actually said about the lesser light leading to the greater light. Some may find the actual words do not support the views often expressed by the persons who never quote but only state she was the lesser light.

quote:

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Sister White is not the originator of these books. They contain the instruction that during her life-work God has been giving her. They contain the precious, comforting light that God has graciously given his servant to be given to the world. From their pages this light is to shine into the hearts of men and women, leading them to the Saviour. The Lord has declared that these books are to be scattered throughout the world. There is in them truth which to the receiver is a savor of life unto life. They are silent witnesses for God. In the past they have been the means in his hands of convicting and converting many souls. Many have read them with eager expectation, and, by reading them, have been led to see the efficacy of Christ's atonement, and to trust in its power. They have been led to commit the keeping of their souls to their Creator, waiting and hoping for the coming of the Saviour to take his loved ones to their eternal home. In the future, these books are to make the gospel plain to many others, revealing to them the way of salvation.

The Lord has sent his people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. O, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth.

My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. Put your hearts into this work, and the blessing of God will be with you. Go forth in faith, praying that God will prepare hearts to receive the light. Be pleasant and courteous. Show by a consistent course that you are true Christians. Walk and work in the light of heaven, and your path will be as the path of the just, shining more and more unto the perfect day.

Take the books to business men, to teachers of the gospel, whose minds have not been called to the special truths for this time. The message is to be given "in the highways,"--to men who take an active part in the world's work, to the teachers and leaders of the people. Thousands can be reached in the most simple, humble way. The most intellectual, those who are looked upon as the world's most gifted men and women, are often refreshed by the simple words of one who loves God, and who can speak of that love as naturally as the worldling speaks of the things that interest him most deeply. Often the words well prepared and studied have but little influence. But the true, honest expression of a son or daughter of God, spoken in natural simplicity, has power to open the door to hearts that have long been closed against Christ and his love. {RH, January 20, 1903}

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Thank you for the quote, however, I am still looking for an answer to my two questions in the post that started this topic.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I heard a story when I was a lot younger than I am now (g), about the sun and moon.

As we all know, the sun rules the day, giving light and heat, but it can be covered up by the clouds thereby restricting it's activity.

The moon was set up to rule the night, dispell the gloom of darkness that pervades after the sun goes 'to bed' for the night.

Unfortunately it, too, may be hid by the clouds.

Much to the dismay of many, the clear light of the sun or moon can be hid or distorted by things apart from them.

The word of God can be likened to that sun and moon.
On a clear day or night, the light shinnes through, but when the clouds of adversity block the light giving source, we need something to remind us that the 'light' is still there.

Introduce the 'candle', the reminder of the light.
It's glowing reminds of the light, tells us that the source is still there and we may be led to it.

The greater light is Jesus the Christ, the lesser light is scripture and SOP, pointing the way to the light (Jesus).
Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and THE LIGHT".

We, too, in a sense, are the lesser light as well, the liveds we lead shine in a darkened world, drawing others to the light of life, Jesus.

My $.02

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

Could it be that the SOP(lesser or less blindingly modulated light setting), is built to reintroduce us to the Bible(A far too brightly lit high pressure lamp for the present SDA lukewarmness to endure); in a not so blinded state that we may be made willing and able to follow it's purposes & goals & intents and not jusk barely comply with it's do's & don'ts.

The upper room-Pentecost - Early Rain was one of the Scriptural goals, intents, purposes - that the mere rules alone could not create. Conversion - preperation & reception of the Holy Ghost on His terms.

The direct from Jesus's mouth - SOP - detailed post ressurection pre assention training helped prepare them to use the ten days wait to the maximum advantage .

Daryl am I "barking up the right tree" is this in the direction you had in mind.

The SOP & Bible are not seperate lights. God sent them both, but SOP is built to prepare a people to use the Bible to it's maximum use through SOP fine-tuning details.

The Bible is built to be the final instrument to harvest Planet Earth's receptive population when God's glory & judgements combine and all the stops are pulled out and full power poured on with no reserves held for later.

The Bible is for larger number outside SDA Church & unaquainted with prophecy like an forest is unaquainted with a plow, SOP is for in the church where belivers in prophecy are willing to be pruned by SOP & cultivated by Scripture.

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Edward F. Sutton

Gerry said:

quote:

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The greater light is Jesus the Christ, the lesser light is scripture and SOP, pointing the way to the light (Jesus).

Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and THE LIGHT".

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Ed said:

quote:

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Could it be that the SOP(lesser or less blindingly modulated light setting), is built to reintroduce us to the Bible (A far too brightly lit high pressure lamp for the present SDA lukewarmness to endure); in a not so blinded state that we may be made willing and able to follow it's purposes & goals & intents and not jusk barely comply with it's do's & don'ts.

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I like Gerry's answer as it is obvious to me the the Greatest Light of all is Jesus Christ, therefore, Jesus Christ is obviously the greater light over the lesser lights of both the Bible and the SOP.

Ed's answer is interesting also, however, before I comment on his answer any further, I would first like him to back up what he said with either a Bible or SOP quote or both.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Volume 2 Manuscript releases. P-204
“Sutherland and Magan did not leave "as men who have made a failure, but as men who made a success," said Ellen White. They "have acted in harmony with the light that God gave. They have worked hard under great difficulties.
. . . They labored and toiled and sacrificed in their endeavor to carry out right lines of education. And God has been with them. He has approved of their efforts." In a second tribute, she said, "They have taught the students from the Bible, according to the light given from the Testimonies. The students that have been with them need not be ashamed of the education they have received."--Ms 54, 1904, pp. 1-3. (Remarks of Ellen G. White at Berrien Springs, May 23, 1904.) [Neff Manuscript, p. 122.] {2MR 204.4}

(The Faith I live by)P-295
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Rev. 19:10. {FLB 295.1}

Above all other books, the Word of God must be our study, the great textbook, the basis of all education. {FLB 295.2}

The Testimonies are not to belittle the Word of God, but to exalt it and attract minds to it, that the beautiful simplicity of truth may impress all. {FLB 295.3}

“I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church. . . . Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's Word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies.” . . . {FLB 295.4}

“ The Lord designs to warn you, to reprove, to counsel, through the testimonies given, and to impress your minds with the importance of the truth of His Word. The written testimonies are not to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed. Man's duty to God and to his fellow man has been distinctly specified in God's Word; yet but few of you are obedient to the light given. Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse.” {FLB 295.5}

“If we disregard them [the warnings in the Testimonies], what excuse can we offer”? {FLB 295.6}

2nd volume Testimonies (2T) P- 606-608

“ I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings. {2T 605.1}

The Lord designs to warn you, to reprove, to counsel, through the testimonies given, and to impress your minds with the importance of the truth of His word. The written testimonies are not to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed. Man's duty to God and to his fellow man has been distinctly specified in God's word; yet but few of you are obedient to the light given. Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse. {2T 605.2}

“ Pride, self-love, selfishness, hatred, envy, and jealousy have beclouded the perceptive powers, and the truth, which would make you wise unto salvation, has lost its power to charm and control the mind. The very essential principles of godliness are not understood because there is not a hungering and thirsting for Bible knowledge, purity of heart, and holiness of life. The Testimonies are not to belittle the word of God, but to exalt it and attract minds to it, that the beautiful simplicity of truth may impress all. {2T 605.3}

“I said further: As the word of God is walled in with these books and pamphlets, so has God walled you in with reproofs, counsel, warnings, and encouragements. Here you are crying before God, in the anguish of your souls, for more light. I am authorized from God to tell you that not another ray of light through the Testimonies will shine upon your pathway until you make a practical use of the light already given. The Lord has walled you about with light; but you have not appreciated the light; you have trampled upon it. While some have despised the light, others have neglected it, or followed it but indifferently. A few have set their hearts to obey the light which God has been pleased to give them. {2T 606.1}

“Some that have received special warnings through testimony have forgotten in a few weeks the reproof given. The testimonies to some have been several times repeated, but they have not thought them of sufficient importance to be carefully heeded. They have been to them like idle tales. Had they regarded the light given they would have avoided losses and trials which they think are hard and severe. They have only themselves to censure. They have placed upon their own necks a yoke which they find grievous to be borne. It is not the yoke which Christ has bound upon them. God's care and love were exercised in their behalf; but their selfish, evil, unbelieving souls could not discern His goodness and mercy. They rush on in their own wisdom until, overwhelmed with trials and confused with perplexity, they are ensnared by Satan. When you gather up the rays of light which God has given in the past, then will He give an increase of light. {2T 606.2}

“I referred them to ancient Israel. God gave them His law, but they would not obey it. He then gave them ceremonies and ordinances, that, in the performance of these, God might be kept in remembrance. They were so prone to forget Him and His claims upon them that it was necessary to keep their minds stirred up to realize their obligations to obey and honor their Creator. Had they been obedient, and loved to keep God's commandments, the multitude of ceremonies and ordinances would not have been required. {2T 607.1}

“If the people who now profess to be God's peculiar treasure would obey His requirements, as specified in His word, special testimonies would not be given to awaken them to their duty and impress upon them their sinfulness and their fearful danger in neglecting to obey the word of God. Consciences have been blunted because light has been set aside, neglected, and despised. And God will remove these testimonies from the people, and will deprive them of strength, and humble them. {2T 607.2}

“I dreamed that, as I was speaking, the power of God fell upon me in a most remarkable manner, and I was deprived of all strength, yet I had no vision. I thought that my husband stood up before the people and exclaimed: "This is the wonderful power of God. He has made the testimonies a powerful means of reaching souls, and He will work yet more mightily through them than He has hitherto done. Who will be on the Lord's side?" {2T 607.3}

“I dreamed that quite a number instantly sprang to their feet and responded to the call. Others sat sullen, some manifested scorn and derision, and a few seemed wholly unmoved. One stood by my side and said: "God has raised you up and has given you words to speak to the people and to reach hearts as He has given to no other one. He has shaped your testimonies to meet cases that are in need of help. You must be unmoved by scorn, derision, reproach, and censure. In order to be God's special instrument, you should lean to no one, but hang upon Him alone, and, like the clinging vine, let your tendrils entwine about Him. He will make you a means through which to communicate His light to the people. You must daily gather strength from God in order to be fortified, that your surroundings may not dim or eclipse the light that He has permitted to shine upon His people through you. It is Satan's special object to prevent this light from coming to the people of God, who so greatly need it amid the perils of these last days. {2T 607.4}

"Your success is in your simplicity. As soon as you depart from this, and fashion your testimony to meet the minds of any, your power is gone. Almost everything in this age is glossed and unreal. The world abounds in testimonies given to please and charm for the moment, and to exalt self. Your testimony is of a different character. It is to come down to the minutiae of life, keeping the feeble faith from dying, and pressing home upon believers the necessity of shining as lights in the world. {2T 608.1}

"God has given you your testimony, to set before the backslider and the sinner his true condition and the immense loss he is sustaining by continuing a life of sin. God has impressed this upon you by opening it before your vision as He has to no other one now living, and according to the light He has given you will He hold you responsible. 'Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.' Lift up your voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Israel their sins." {2T 608.2}

“This dream had a powerful influence upon me. When I awoke, my depression was gone, my spirits were cheerful, and I realized great peace. Infirmities that had unfitted me for labor were removed, and I realized a strength and vigor to which I had for months been a stranger. It seemed to me that angels of God had been commissioned to bring me relief. Unspeakable gratitude filled my heart for this great change from despondency to light and happiness. I knew that help had come from God. This manifestation appeared to me like a miracle of God's mercy, and I will not be ungrateful for His loving-kindness.” {2T 608.3}

Gerry is correct in looking at things in the largest scope, he looked at the matter broader than I did. Jesus authored the Scriptures & SOP they did not author Him. Scripture & SOP are the product of Deity given through inspiration (and direct quote @ times) to mankind through God’s servants the prophets.

GOOD WORK GERRY B ( Gerry - “ BEE ” on the ball)

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Edward F. Sutton

I had always thought that the SOP writings were the lesser light leading to the greater light which I had previously thought was the Bible, however, prior to Gerry's post, I had heard another say the same thing.

After meditating on that for a few moments, I came to the conclusion that this person was obviously correct in what he said. By the way, I can't remember who said that. It was at a meeting somewhere.

The lesser light is indeed both the Bible and the SOP leading us to the greater light Jesus Christ who is also referred to as the Word.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

quote:

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Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
I had always thought that the SOP writings were [b]the lesser light leading to the greater light which I had previously thought was the Bible, however, prior to Gerry's post, I had heard another say the same thing.

After meditating on that for a few moments, I came to the conclusion that this person was obviously correct in what he said. By the way, I can't remember who said that. It was at a meeting somewhere.

The lesser light is indeed both the Bible and the SOP leading us to the greater light Jesus Christ who is also referred to as the Word.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."[/B]

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“One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan’s banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God’s Spirit.” Selected Messages, book 3, 84.

Evidently the reception of the ministry of Sister White is essential, if those who leave the truth first stumble there.

“In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will, and the course that He would have them pursue.” Testimonies, vol. 5, 661.

Not only is Sister White's wtitings "the voice of Christ," but He (Christ) has NEVER "spoken more earnestly." What a profound understanding?

“It is the voice of Christ that speaks through patriarchs and prophets, from the days of Adam even to the closing scenes of time.” Desire of Ages, 799.

Evidently it is not Sister White who was speaking through her writings. Therefore her writings must not be "the lesser light." If her writings aren't the lesser light, (for how could we call the voice "of Christ" the lesser light,) Then what is the meaning of the lesser light?

“The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. Oh, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth.” Colporteur Ministry, 125–126.

So what is the "lesser light?"

“The prophet John was the connecting link between the two dispensations. As God’s representative he stood forth to show the relation of the law and the prophets to the Christian dispensation. He was the lesser light, which was to be followed by a greater. The mind of John was illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that he might shed light upon his people; but no other light ever has shone or ever will shine so clearly upon fallen man as that which emanated from the teaching and example of Jesus.” The Desire of Ages, 220.

Every single prophet is the lesser light IN COMPARISON with THE LIGHT. If we down grade the writings of Ellen White because she is the "lesser light", then we have the right to down grade Isaiah, or Moses, or Daniel. They were all "lesser lights" in relation to the light of Christ.

But notice that John the Babtist was a lesser light and also a connecting link. There are only four connecting link prophets in Sacrad History.

“Said Christ, in vindication of John, ‘But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.’ Not only was John a prophet to foretell future events, but he was a child of promise, filled with the Holy Spirit from his birth, and was ordained of God to execute a special work as a reformer, in preparing a people for the reception of Christ. The prophet John was the connecting link between the two dispensations.” Review and Herald, April 8, 1873.

Noah was a connecting link between the dispensations of the garden of Eden and the alter. Noah was used to re-direct the focus of worship for God's people from the gates of the garden of Eden, (where mankind worshipped before the flood,) to alters. The first thing Noah did after the flood was introduce the dispensation of alter worship. This lasted until the next connecting link prophet. Moses.

Moses was used by God to redirect the focus of worship from alters unto the earthly sanctuary. He was a connecting link between alter worship and sanctuary worship. The next connecting link prophet was John the Babtist. The first thing he said when he saw Jesus was "Behold the Lamb of God." He was used by God to change the focus of worship from the earthly unto the heavenly sanctuary. The last connecting link prophet was Ellen White.

Sister White was used to change the focus of worship for God's people from the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary to the Most Holy Place. This is why her early visions had so much to say about the Most Holy Place and about those who continued to pray to the Holy Place. Now consider this.

In sacred history there are only four connecting link, or as I call them dispensational prophets. You may call them whatever you wish, of course. But the four prophets were Noah, Moses. John the Babtist, and Ellen White. I would suggest that the company where Sister White ministry is located is more elevated than what you would call a minor prophet.

Sister White was also a time prophet. You will find that at the end of every time prophecy in the bible concerning God's people directly, (not the 1260, 1290, 1335.) that there is always a remanant raised up that recognize that time prophecy as present truth unto themselves. There is also always a prophet raised up that also recognizes the content of the particular time prophecy as present truth unto themselves. Solemn indeed is this truth when you recognize that God changes not. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And that the Bible teaches that upon the testimony of two or three a thing shall be establsihed. Why is this solemn? Because when you look at these time prop[hecies in the Bible you will find that all these prophets that are raised up at the end of a time prophecy have a very solemn truth connected with their ministry. The reception or rejection of their ministry is always a life or death decision. Some but not all the prophets raised up at the end of a time prophecy are Noah, 120 years, life or death. Moses, life or death. John the Baptist.

“I was pointed back to the proclamation of the first advent of Christ. John was sent in the spirit and power of Elijah to prepare the way of Jesus. Those who rejected the testimony of John were not benefited by the teachings of Jesus. Their opposition to the message that foretold His coming placed them where they could not readily receive the strongest evidence that He was the Messiah. Satan led on those who rejected the message of John to go still farther, to reject and crucify Christ. In doing this they placed themselves where they could not receive the blessing on the day of Pentecost, which would have taught them the way into the heavenly sanctuary. The rendering of the veil of the temple showed that the Jewish sacrifices and ordinances would no longer be received. The great Sacrifice had been offered and had been accepted, and the Holy Spirit which descended on the day of Pentecost carried the minds of the disciples from the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly, where Jesus had entered by His own blood, to shed upon His disciples the benefits of His atonement. But the Jews were left in total darkness. They lost all the light which they might have had upon the plan of salvation, and still trusted in their useless sacrifices and offerings. The heavenly sanctuary had taken the place of the earthly, yet they had no knowledge of the change. Therefore they could not be benefited by the mediation of Christ in the holy place.” Early Writings, 259–261.

The apostle Paul. to reject the gospel he presented was death. Ellen White. LIFE or Death. God never changes. Selah. Lesser light?

If we had more time we could show that another characteristic of a time prophet is that their name always corresponds to their ministy. NOah means rest or comfort, and the bIble states:“And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.” Genesis 5:29.

Moses means: saved out of the water. He was saved out of the water, but he was used to save God's people out of the water. If he would have continued to be faithful he would have led God's people through the water into the promised land. John the Babtist was the prophet who babtized Jesus. These type of prophets names always correspond to their minstry.

Ellen White is no different. She was the prophet to Laodicea. Laodicea needs three items to recieve Christ.

Eyesalve, which is spiritual discernment, which is the Bible. And I do mean the bible. Certainly the holy Spirit has a great part to play in our spiritual discernment, but we must test the spirits, by the Bi;ble. The Bible is called a "lamp unto thy feet". Spiritual discernment, or eyeslave is in one sense a lamp. The word Ellen means: A bright and shining light. Interesting when considered in connection with the "lesser light".

The second thing Laodicean's need is "white raiment.' Ellen's last name is white!

The third thing a Laodicean needs is Gold tried in the fire, which is faith which works by love and purifies the soul. But what do you suppose Gould means?

It is an ancient English word that means gold. All three remedies for Laodicea are symboplized in Ellen Gould White. God doesn't allow coincedences.

By the way, before Ellen White met James White the time period of the church was not Laodicea. It was Phildelphia. Her name then was Ellen Gould Harmen.

You will find that the Philidelphian's were being directed by the bright and shining light of God's word as they carried the judgent hour message to the world, as symbolized in the name Ellen, and they were acting out the faith symbolized by gold.

But what does Harmen mean? It is and ancient English word that means: A soldier of Peace, as were those who carried the Judgment hour cry during the Millerite time period.

Ellen White was the prophet to Philidelphia and to us in Laodicea. She is a connecting link, dispensational prophet, and to reject her ministry is to reject the Laodicean message which she is so clearly symbolized in, and her ministry is as all time prophets ministrys--LIFE or DEATH.

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editing done as "spell checking" & html bold "checking" & seperating paragraphs for easier reading.

P.S. In conjunction with what Jeff is saying, in Selected messages is the quote from R&H where EGW states that her work was more than a prophet's work. The Bible gives the chain of authority as Apostles, Prophets, & so on; God said Moses was more than a prophet. She & her work was not lesser even though that term she used - her work simply lead to The Greater-(Jesus Christ) Himself, using her pen & voice to convey what He gave her to reach us with.

Good work - Gerry, Jeff, Daryl, Linda

Ed Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited August 29, 2000).]

Very fascinating thread! I believe that as John the Baptist was "a lesser light which was to be followed by a greater" (D.A.220) Ellen White was "a lesser light which is to be followed by a greater." As John the Baptist was "the Elijah that was to come" so Ellen White was "the individual which was to come in the spirit and power of Elijah." 1 SM 412.

In her writings Sister White speaks of Elijah the individual and Elijah the people. The Elijah the people are preceded by the Elijah the individual. Could it be that those who will be filled with the Holy Spirit during the latter rain and loud cry will be the Elijah the people, the greater light? The light that will shine through them will lighten the earth with the glory of God. Rev.18:1. The earth will be filled with the knowledge of God and of Christ. It is said that "The world will be CAPTIVATED by the glory of an abiding Christ." C.O.L. 19. Will that not be the greater light?

John the Baptist's ministry was followed by Christ Himself and later by Christ in the person of His disciples at Pentecost with a fullness never experienced before! Did they not, like Christ, become the greater light? "During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but NEVER IN ITS FULLNESS... But at Pentecost, "The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a FULLNESS that reached every heart." A.A.37,38. (This statement would also explain why John said that "the Spirit had not been given because that Jesus was not yet glorified" in John 7:38. (The Spirit had not been given in its fullness until Jesus's coronation in Heaven).

P/S In 1 SM p.412 there you can read how Sister White, in a very unassuming manner, implies that she was the Elijah that was to come!

As Ed also pointed out in his post, those who rejected the teachings of John the Baptist could not benefit from the teachings of Christ. Those who neglect or reject the Testimonies will not be able to benefit from the latter rain message!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited February 26, 2001).]

All Excellent points!!!

Hello Everyone,

Ab, thank you for those stirring and encouraging thoughts. I always thought it was amazing that Jesus promised His followers that their future Spirit powered testimony and witness would exceed even His example and experience. See John 14:12.

Now I can see how these truths apply even to Ellen White and the future Elijah people and their witness and testimony. It thrills me to anticipate these things. I trust God will fulfill His promises then even as He is fair and faithful now.

Mike

Hello All!
Yes ! I agree that BOTH the Bible and SOP are the lesser lights, as Jesus is the light of the world!(John 8:12)

Jeff Pippenger quote: "Laodicea needs three items to recieve Christ.
Eyesalve, which is spiritual discernment, which is the Bible. And I do mean the bible. Certainly the holy Spirit has a great part to play in our spiritual discernment, but we must test the spirits, by the Bible. The Bible is called a "lamp unto thy feet". Spiritual discernment, or eyeslave is in one sense a lamp. The word Ellen means: A bright and shining light. Interesting when considered in connection with the "lesser light".
The second thing Laodicean's need is "white raiment.' Ellen's last name is white! The third thing a Laodicean needs is Gold tried in the fire, which is faith which works by love and purifies the soul. But what do you suppose Gould means?
It is an ancient English word that means gold. All three remedies for Laodicea are
symbolized in Ellen Gould White. God doesn't allow coincedences."

AMEN!

Also, we should note that 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man : but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"[b/]

My point is this..God's prophets(prophetesses) were/are [b]not inspired in degrees , as some imply that Ellen White and Martin Luther and others were inspired alike.

God's prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit!PERIOD!

Throughout the Holy Scriptures referring to Spiritual Gifts", mention is made in 5 different places "prophecy" (Romans 12:6;1 Corinthians 12:10,28;1 Cor.13:2;1 Cor 14:3;Eph.4:11-12).

And it would be well for us to note 1 Cor.12:1" Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant."

Also Ephesians 4:11-14 " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine..." (emphasis mine-LM)
I'm reminded again, and perhaps someone has already quoted this statement recorded in 3SM83-4 "Men may get up scheme after schem. and the enemy will seek to seduce souls from the truth, but all who believe that the Lord has spoken through Sister White, and has given her a message, will be safe from the many delusions that will come in these last days."(emphasis mine-LM)

And it can't be much plainer than that, can it?

I live in a little town in Nova Scotia, Canada called "Pugwash"- meaning "Deep Water". The town has a seaport which exports Salt. Large ships come into port, but in order to navigate the river channel, which twists and turns, a pilot boat is needed to guide the big ships in. The large ships, I liken to as the Word of God. The "pilot boats" are similar to the SOP!

My dear Brothers and Sisters!
I believe that the SOP is a Survivor's Manual for the 144,000. And it is my prayer that we all awake as to the times in which we live.

Without the SOP in God's Remnant Church, we would cease to be SDA's

Keep "the" Faith BUT

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Sanctify the Lord in your hearts, AND BE READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO EVERY one who asks...(1 Peter 3:15)
Bro. Laurie

Hello Everyone,

While it is true all inspired authors are lesser lights pointing out the way to Jesus, the great light, it is also true that Ellen White did not hold writings to be equal to the Bible. We may do that ourselves, but I don't believe she did.

This does not suggest that she felt her writings were uninspired or even less inspired than Scripture. But still she never held her writings equal to the Bible. But for that matter neither did Peter or Paul. Neither one of them would have dared to hold their writings equal to the OT. And yet that's exactly what we do with them now.

Is Ellen White a lesser light compared to the Bible, the greater light? She would say so. But in reality is there any difference? I believe it is safer to say that there is a difference. Most of her counsel was given to the SDA church alone, whereas the Bible was given to the whole world. That counts as a big difference, don't you think?

By the way, I have no problem using the words lesser and greater light in more than one context. I don't believe they are limited to inspired writings and Jesus. That the Bible is the greater light too is clear from John 1:14 - "The word was made flesh." See also Ps 119:105 - "Thy word is lamp... and a light."

Mike

2Peter3:15,16--
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [emphasis mine]

Sounds like Peter put Pauls writings on a par with scripture to me.
Long before we came on the scene.

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Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

In nature God created light and gave it a place to rule over time frames in human existence.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The physical light that made the moon a source of light was the sunlight reflected off it and down onto the Earth. So Sunlight was the more direct higher intensity light, and moon light was reflected and dimmer sunlight. The sun ruled the day & the moon the night.

Now consider the similarities & differences in the Bible & SOP.

Author - nope - no difference - have same author.

Inspired Messengers known as prophets, seers, Apostles. - Nope no differences there both groups represented in Bible & SOP.

Content and it's purposes. The Bible is written to cover all human population's needs till Second Coming. Only some of SOP is built for the world, most is directed into the Remnant body of believers. Bible does not build on SOP, but rather SOP builds upon the works of the Bible.

The Apostles, Prophets, Seers, etc were not sources of light but inspired reflectors.

Jesus was the Source, but the Father is greater than He in rank and authority & is called the Father of lights. (see James 1:17 KJV)

Calling something a lesser light means you are comparing it with a greater light. What if the lights are the same in nature but different in what audience they are built to reach and the works they are to do with those people they are designed to be sent to.

Could it be that the authority that both the Bible & sop are inspired with and given to humanity by that authority are equal, both being included in the phrase "every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." ?

Would the time frame mentioned here suggest a continued inspiration, after the close of the canon of Scripture, and would this continuance be called SOP ?

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

As far as our understanding of greater & lesser, I will illustrate .

To illustrate my point, Isaiah 7:25"lesser cattle" were not called smaller Angus or tiny Herefords, but were called sheep. They were a different animal, though they grazed on vegetation, lived in flocks & herds, were also a food & money source. Both species came under old English heading "cattle" that was a broader heading that we define it today. Sheep (lesser cattle)were not inferior to cows & bulls & steers(oxen) or the (greater cattle). The sheep were physically smaller and the comparison of physical size was what was calling them lesser, not a comparison of quality or value.

Would it be proper to suggest that the SOP may be called "lesser light" not because it is inferior, but rather it's purpose is a narrower focus than canon Scripture. Since it comes through the same channel of delegation as canon Scripture, (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, holy angels) there is no inspired difference made as to the quality and authority inspiring the content of Scripture verses SOP or the method and accuracy of inspiration and relevancy nor the timelessness of either as they explain themselves.

The problem seems to be our ideas of lesser verses greater when we talk about inspired "light". Perhaps we are too narrow in our views. Perhaps looking at the big picture of the scope of human salvation, redemption, and the functions of inspiration would help us see more clearly.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited March 02, 2001).]

I like this thread.
I have really learned a lot, and you all have given me much to think about.
I think in terms of trucks.
You have small ones, big ones, bigger ones and really monster size ones.
Each a different size to do a different job, but all carry things from one point to another.
All are 'dispatched' to different locations to bring needed materials to that point.

I liken SOP and scripture and SOP to this.
Each has it's load to carry, each has it's job to do, but that's just it, they are the worker, they accomplish the delivery, they are not the destination nor the load.
Our destination is heaven and to be with Jesus, the load is the love of God towards mankind and the salvation He offers.
Scripture and SOP are the 'trucks' that bring the material [infornation] that is needed to complete the 'job' [informed salvation].

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Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

Gerry wrote:

quote:

---

Sounds like Peter put Pauls writings on a par with scripture to me.
Long before we came on the scene.

---

Good point, Gerry. But do you find Peter or Paul saying the same thing about their own writings? Yes, they believed their writings were inspired of God. But did they ever claim that their writings were equal to the OT? And did Ellen ever say her writings were equal to the Bible?

Mike

Edward wrote:

quote:

---

Would it be proper to suggest that the SOP may be called "lesser light" not because it is inferior, but rather it's purpose is a narrower focus than canon Scripture. Since it comes through the same channel of delegation as canon Scripture, (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, holy angels) there is no inspired difference made as to the quality and authority inspiring the content of Scripture verses SOP or the method and accuracy of inspiration and relevancy nor the timelessness of either as they explain themselves.

---

Yes, that would be fair too. But more than that. Like the moon reflects sunlight so too the writings of Ellen White reflect the Son (Jesus) light of Scripture. I think that's the main difference between the two. The source of Ellen's light is the Bible. Her light is reflected and not original in the SAME sense the light of Scripture is original. Not that her writings are less inspired than the Bible, but rather that her writings are a reflection of the Bible. I like to refer to her works as an inspired Bible commentary. Which doesn't make her less inspired in my mind.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
I like to refer to her works as an inspired Bible commentary.

Mike

---

An excellent description of the SOP!

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited March 02, 2001).]

It never ceases to amaze me to see the mental contortions we go through to make our theology fit the Bible, and/or the Bible fit our theology. We should be content with the plain word of God. Just interpreting that is challenge enough.

Please quote just one text from Scripture refering to the "lesser light" and the "greater light".

Sorry, Daryl, that didn't answer your question. You can remove this post if you want.

That's why this is called the 'SPIRIT OF PROPHECY'forum.
We are disgussing the writings of Ellen White in here, and there relevence to scripture as well as their duty.

EGW referred to herself as the lesser light, stating her purpose was to point us back to the Holy Scripture.

Her writings would not be necessary if we studied THE BOOK as we should.

Your post was not contrary to the posted rules of the Maritime Forum, so will not be deleted.

Your premise is correct, in this sense, if we will study the scripture as we know we should, we will have all we need for salvation, but, because we are who and what we are, God, in His infinite love and mercy, gave us SOP to guide us in our study.
Not to take the place of scripture, but to help us find the answers we need so we can understand.

The stated purpose of her books are to guide us into a better knowledge of salvation.To open our minds AND GUIDE US TO THE TRUTH, as it is in Christ Jesus.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
Her writings would not be necessary if we studied THE BOOK as we should.

---

While searching for something on the CDRom, I came across this statement which I found interesting:

quote:

---

I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings.

The Lord designs to warn you, to reprove, to counsel, through the testimonies given, and to impress your minds with the importance of the truth of His word. The written testimonies are not to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed. Man's duty to God and to his fellow man has been distinctly specified in God's word; yet but few of you are obedient to the light given. Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse.

Pride, self-love, selfishness, hatred, envy, and jealousy have beclouded the perceptive powers, and the truth, which would make you wise unto salvation, has lost its power to charm and control the mind. The very essential principles of godliness are not understood because there is not a hungering and thirsting for Bible knowledge, purity of heart, and holiness of life. The Testimonies are not to belittle the word of God, but to exalt it and attract minds to it, that the beautiful simplicity of truth may impress all. {2T 605}

---

Something that immediately stood out that I had never noticed before was that she used the Testimonies to surround the Bible, and said they would not have been needed had people studied their Bibles. The testimonies were to help us reach the standard of perfection that God has for His people.

Ellen White wrote more than testimonies. She also wrote the story of the controversy between Christ and Satan, now in the five volumes we call the Conflict of the Ages series. There are also the health writings, and other works about Jesus and His earthly ministry. These works do not fall into the catagory of testimonies.

We cannot forget that the OT said that there would be a forerunner, a prophet, a messenger, who would precede the "great and dreadful day of the Lord." Jesus came once as a man to die. His forerunner was John the Baptist. According to the prophecy, there would be a forerunner before His second coming. So even if men had not needed the testimonies, the forerunner was still coming and came in the work and ministry of Ellen G. White. That's why rejecting her role and work (as so many in the SDA church do today) is so serious. To reject her role as God's messenger is to say God was wrong in prophecying that someone would come to do the work she did prior to His second coming.

[While I quoted what Gerry said, I don't want anyone to think that I did so to attack Gerry. I used it as the background to the statement that I found.]

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Jesus is the joy of living
_________________________

Linda

I had not read that quote.
My understanding of what I read was that the 'Testimonies' were the only ones she meant. I am, after all, just a man. I need the input of others, and desire to learn.
I thank you for what you posted, it clears up what I had tried to say.
I know you did not attack, you found more information to provide a better understanding of my post..

As we work together, studying and sharing, we grow.
Some will find one thing, another something else, and as we add them together and study them out, it becomes easier to see the whole picture a little more clearly.
We may not know everything, only that which God has deamed necessary.
He is the great provider and He is the one that opens His word and the works of His servants to our understanding.
Thank God for His holy word and His willing servants, including Ellen G. White.

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Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

Apostasy creeps in subtly, and appears as light. Are you all saying that the bible is the lesser light leading to the greater light of Ellen White's writings, other than the "Testimonies"? If the bible is the standard by which we test truth, what is the greater: further light, or the standard? They are not at odds, but Ellen White surely only supplements what we should have found ourselves if we had studied as we should. She said that.
Hearing the bible downgraded should set off the loudest alarms.

No, no, no,no,no, and no again.
What we are saying is the same thing EG White said herself, her writings are the 'lesser' light pointing to the greater light.

The purpose of her writings were to get people to get back into the Word.
When the Adventist movement first started, we were known as the people of the Book.

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case today.
We allow others to tell us what the Book says and don't look into it ourselves.

She addressed this problem at one time when she admonished her listeners to not quote her unless they were better versed in Scripture.

She did not set herself up as the final word, she always said that Scripture is, but there were those in her day that used her as the final authority, just as some today do.

That is never been the purpose of her books, but rather, that we would get into the book and discover the rich treasure there.

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Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

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Did some typing corrections only

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited November 12, 2001).]