I have become distressed about the tone of too many messages in this forum, and have gathered some statements from SOP. I will not give citations where you can easily find them. If you are serious about studying the focus of these statements, you can search for yourself. If you want to not search out for yourself, then believe or don't believe that the statements are accurately represented. In other words, take these for what's its worth.

"You have no right to find fault with those who do not believe as you do. You are not to criticize the minister who is sent to you, and say he is too liberal, or he is at fault in this or that, if he is preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. No matter what you may think, do not allow your tongue to utter condemnation of that which you do not understand. Do not sow the seed of unbelief and discord. Silence is eloquence, and we greatly need to learn this eloquence. When you hear your brethren speaking evil of others, tell them not to judge, not to condemn. . . . Persons have criticized those who were digging deep in the mines of knowledge, and their criticism, if heeded, would crust out the very powers that God would have men develop and strengthen. This talking against others must stop among those who profess to be the children of God."

"Shall not these lessons be of profit to those who are tempted to criticize, think evil of, speak evil of, and judge and condemn those whom God is leading and favoring? And how much worse it is to criticize and give judgment against the church that God has chosen to magnify his name and vindicate his honor, than to speak simply against an individual member."

"To accuse and criticize those whom God is using, is to accuse and criticize the Lord, who has sent them. All need to cultivate their religious faculties, that they may have a right discernment of religious things."

"All the religion many have is to pick flaws"

"Let no Christian be found an accuser of the brethren. Satan is the one who bears this title; he accuses them before God day and night, he stirs up the enemies of our faith to accuse us, and he prompts those of like precious faith to criticize and condemn one another. We are not to take part in his work. These are days of trial and of great peril, the adversary of souls is upon the track of every one; and while we stand out separate from the world, we should press together in faith and love. United, we are strong; divided, we are weak."

"Let us not consider it a virtue to make and suggest difficulties, which one mind and another will bring in to harass and perplex."

"When others begin to question and criticize, let us be determined, either by silence or by turning the conversation into another channel, to cut off the words which would not be spoken in wisdom."

"Often we are tempted to criticize a man standing in a high position of responsibility because he does not do as we think he ought to do. But the one who has so many responsibilities to carry needs not the criticism of his fellow workers; he needs their encouragement, their forbearance, their patience, and their prayers."

"But too often place is given to evil surmising and evil thinking. Under the influence of the suspicions that Satan has planted in the heart, very unjust things are said and done."

"Some pride themselves on being outspoken, blunt, and rough, and they call this frankness; but it is not rightly named. It is selfishness of the deepest dye. . . . They criticize, they wound, they say disagreeable things."

"Men's hearts are no softer today than when Christ was upon the earth. They will criticize and turn against the servant of God the very efforts he is leading them to make. They will, with their evil surmising, see fraud and dishonesty where all is right, and where perfect integrity exists. They lay selfish motives to the charge of God's servants, when he himself is leading them, and when they would give even their lives if God required, if by so doing they could advance His cause."

"Satan is constantly working through his agents to dishearten and destroy those whom God has chosen to accomplish a great and good work"

I personally would suggest that to undermine confidence in the ministers and leaders of the church is the worst kind of criticism that can be engaged in. Let us be cautious and careful in the road chosen to walk.

In point of fact, by not posting where you found these references, you do us and yourself a diservice.
It is not fair to post this and not tell where you found it.

I have access to her writings, but am not learned enough to know how to find them.

Please, tell us where you found these statements, book and page, so we can read them for ourselves.

I appreciate your observation, but I do not feel that I have done myself nor you a dis-service by not posting the reference citations. If a person is interested enough in this subject to conduct his or her own research, then he or she should go to his or her own source or index to find the appropriate quotations. If a person is not interested enough to conduct his or her own research, he or she probably would not bother to look the quotations up anyway.

I am sorry if you do not agree with my approach, but then I guess brothers and sisters in Christ can take different approaches to many issues, right? God bless you in your study.

I suggest that a word search on the CD of the writings of EGW or I understand that the writings can be accessed on the net (that I do not know for sure) is the most satisfactory manner in which to study those writings. I also like to add, that the SOP should be only used to help someone understand the Bible, and the Bible should never be used to prove the Spirit of Prophecy writings. Just a personal opinion that I threw in for free!

[This message has been edited by Wedntgp (edited April 03, 2001).]

The problem is that I can't getn the stupid word search to work for me.
No matter what I do, it says that what I'm looking for doesn't exist.
On top of that, I can't figure out how to use the helps either.

I'm new at computers, and a lot of people out there are like me.
that's why I made the rquest and said what I did.

My only resource for finding SOP quotes that are not in books that I already have is the EG White Estate website. Unfortunately, I find that it is very difficult to find specific quotes using the search engine. I have had very little success with that.

When you looked up those quotes Wedntgp, it would have taken very little extra effort to include the references. I would like to keep the list of the references you have given for possible future use, but I know it would take a lot of time and effort to find them on the website, assuming that I actually could manage to locate them eventually, and I don't have the time to hunt for needles in haystacks. It would be much more considerate if you would include references for all SOP quotes in any future posts.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

I agree with everybody in the same way that I give the Bible reference to any text I use when delivering a sermon on a Sabbath morning.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Same here.
I don't have a problem with the posts he made, in fact, I agree with them.
I just would like to know where they are so in future if I share them with someone else, I can tell them where to find them.
Please, Wedntgp, I really would like to know where they are.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2

Wow. That's alot of work. I started to look up all the references you shared and finally gave up. It's not that I'm not interested in the subject, it's just that the general thought is so basic that I felt the first quote said it all.

I agree we should be careful and cautious as we respond to the many things our leaders and pastors do. But even better than that - I like to focus on the truth rather than on what one leader or the other might be doing right or wrong. Besides the best Leader is without fault, perfect and altogether wonderful. And how can anybody find fault with Him?

When a church leader is on target I rejoice in God. When one or more are off target, according to God's Word and the example of Jesus, then I choose to disregard that part. But I don't wholesale blow the guy off. I have found that no matter how off he might be on one part he's very much right on another part. Feeling this way does not, of course, ignore the fact he was wrong on the other part. But I choose not to get burdened down by the faults of others. What I think and believe as a Christian is based on the Holy Bible and not on what imperfect humans preach and teach.

"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Thank you, Paul! Oh, by the way, that quote comes Romans 14:5. But are you sure you want to trust me without looking it up for yourself? Ha! Please excuse my silly humor.

God bless.

I will see what I can do. If you do a word search for the word "criticize" you will find those references and many more.

I agree with your assessment regarding references during a sermon. I also give the source of the quotation because the listeners do not have the opportunity to write the quotation down and look it up later,and it is easier to write a citation down, although I suspect less than 1% do. I had a teacher that told us it would be easy to hand feed us knowledge, but we would learn more if we did the "digging" ourselves. I found that to be true. Do any of you remember what your preacher talked about 3 weeks ago? Do you remember what knowledge you gained from any research you did three weeks ago?

For what its worth!

While I agree with alot of your quotes Wedntgp, I believe the ministers , teachers, pastors and leaders need accountability too. Since we are using SOP quotes, I would like to add the following:
GC595 "God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches they represent, the voice of the majority- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain 'Thus saith the Lord' in its support."

AND

It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right OR what the minister tells him is right. His soul's salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself.Ibid.p.598 (My emphasis-LM)

And God has much to say about accountability for His watchmen
Some of God's shepherds are compared as follows:Isaiah
10 His watchmen [are] blind: they are all ignorant, they [are] all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

MY 2 c's worth!
Laurie Mosher- A "Keeper of 'the' Faith!"

Lookie what I found:
To accuse and criticize those whom God is using is to accuse and criticize the Lord who has sent them.

All need to cultivate their religious faculties, that they may have a right discernment of religious things. Some have failed to distinguish between pure gold and mere glitter, between the substance and the shadow. {TM 466.2}

"You have no right to find fault with those who do not believe as you do.
You are not to criticize the minister who is sent to you, and say he is too liberal, or he is at fault in this or that, if he is preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is self explanatory, couldn't find it, yet, just wanted to point it out.

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited April 05, 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurie Mosher:
[b]GC595 "God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches they represent, the voice of the majority- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain 'Thus saith the Lord' in its support."

---

AMEN, Bro. Mosher. AMEN

EGW Quotes & references

1."You have no right to find fault with those who do not believe as you do. You are not to criticize the minister who is sent to you, and say he is too liberal, or he is at fault in this or that, if he is preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. No matter what you may think, do not allow your tongue to utter condemnation of that which you do not understand. Do not sow the seed of unbelief and discord. Silence is eloquence, and we greatly need to learn this eloquence. When you hear your brethren speaking evil of others, tell them not to judge, not to condemn. . . . Persons have criticized those who were digging deep in the mines of knowledge, and their criticism, if heeded, would crush out the very powers that God would have men develop and strengthen. This talking against others must stop among those who profess to be the children of God." {RH, April 26, 1892 par. 5}

EGW ( 3 - part sermon) Sermon #1 - RH April 19 - 1892 ; sermon # 2- RH - April 26 - 1892 (where the quoted paragraph is) ; sermon # - 3 RH May 3 - 1892 (conclusion).

2."Shall not these lessons be of profit to those who are tempted to criticize, think evil of, speak evil of, and judge and condemn those whom God is leading and favoring? And how much worse it is to criticize and give judgment against the church that God has chosen to magnify his name and vindicate his honor, than to speak simply against an individual member." {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 6}

3. "To accuse and criticize those whom God is using, is to accuse and criticize the Lord, who has sent them. All need to cultivate their religious faculties, that they may have a right discernment of religious things."
{LS 325.2 - Life Sketches of Ellen G. White - 1915 - p-325 paragraph 2} ....... {TM 466.2 - Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers {1923} p- 466 paragraph 2} ....... {1888 954.3 - The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials 1987 - p-954 paragraph 3. }

4. "All the religion many have is to pick flaws" {HS 123.2}
HS - Historical Sketches of the Foreign Missions of the Seventh-day Adventists (1886)
Practical Addresses.
Delivered by Mrs. E. G. White to the Swiss Conference and the European Missionary Council

5. ($-Part article) starting November 29, 1906 The Work in Oakland and San Francisco--No. 1- 4
Mrs. E. G. White
"Let no Christian be found an accuser of the brethren. Satan is the one who bears this title; he accuses them before God day and night, he stirs up the enemies of our faith to accuse us, and he prompts those of like precious faith to criticize and condemn one another. We are not to take part in his work. These are days of trial and of great peril, the adversary of souls is upon the track of every one; and while we stand out separate from the world, we should press together in faith and love. United, we are strong; divided, we are weak."
{RH, December 6, 1906 par. 7} (No. 2 , paragraph 7)

6. "Let us not consider it a virtue to make and suggest difficulties, which one mind and another will bring in to harass and perplex."
Letter 87, 1900. {3SM 120.1}; {AUCR, August 1, 1900 par. 2}; -Letter 87, 1900, pp. 1,2. {MR728 43.3}

7. "When others begin to question and criticize, let us be determined, either by silence or by turning the conversation into another channel, to cut off the words which would not be spoken in wisdom." The Upward Look Chap. 171 - God Helps Us Accomplish His Will {UL 185.1}

8."Often we are tempted to criticize a man standing in a high position of responsibility because he does not do as we think he ought to do. But the one who has so many responsibilities to carry needs not the criticism of his fellow workers; he needs their encouragement, their forbearance, their patience, and their prayers."
Mind, Character, and Personality volume 2, {2MCP 633.2}

(9.)"But too often place is given to evil surmising and evil thinking. Under the influence of the suspicions that Satan has planted in the heart, very unjust things are said and done." {AUCR, April 15, 1905 par. 5}

(10.)"Some pride themselves on being outspoken, blunt, and rough, and they call this frankness; but it is not rightly named. It is selfishness of the deepest dye. . . . They criticize, they wound, they say disagreeable things." {GW92 431.1}; {ML 196.3}; {VSS 141.1}; {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 7}

(11.)"Men's hearts are no softer today than when Christ was upon the earth. They will criticize and turn against the servant of God the very efforts he is leading them to make. They will, with their evil surmising, see fraud and dishonesty where all is right, and where perfect integrity exists. They lay selfish motives to the charge of God's servants, when he himself is leading them, and when they would give even their lives if God required if by so doing they could advance His cause." {4T 234.2}; {IR, May 8, 1907 par. 5}; {ST, December 30, 1886 par. 12}

(12.)"Satan is constantly working through his agents to dishearten and destroy those whom God has chosen to accomplish a great and good work" {AA 418.1}; {LP 232.1}

When putting in SOP quotes - if you have the reference & the time to put in the quote - you have time to put in the reference. If you do not have the reference - then say so. Some of our members, moderators, readers have health limitations on their energy, eye sight, and limits on their time. They deserve our courtesy.

The Berean method of study requires references, unless all the readers have the appropriate data bases and search engines and are familiar enough with them to use them. Plus references allows readers to look up context. I have, and am up to 55-56 pages in my word processor & have not started on (looking up context on )number 8 quote yet, but I will soon.

Inspiration is quite balanced, I will look up what Scripture says on a word search : pastor*, leader*, shepherd*, brother*, disciple* and post it. It cuts both ways. Be two faced in God's house and God aint deaf or blind. It is a problem of members & officers & leaders alike. Too bad the worst ones are the most visible & vocal - you rarely get to hear and see the good ones.

Too many SDA's are spiritual canibbals, that actually seems to be a leaving the faith. When there is sin in the Church - deal with it - but how you deal with it - there is the evidence of who is your Master. If you follow Jesus, you will follow His methods and His revealed inspired testimony from Bible & SOP. You will do all you can to compile all the evidence that applies to the situation and then follow it.

We do not think of Sodom and Gomorrha as a vacation spot, but Capernaum the religious is in worse shape. The same One who dealt with Sodom and the cities of the plains is much angrier over religious hypocrites. Capurnaum is in deep (.......)because had Jesus done in Tyre & Sidon what He later did in Capernaum - those cities would have repented. We can be religious hypocrites as laity all the way up to leadership. The office does not make the person, the person comes to the office and carries what they are or what they are not into the office.

Matthew 10:
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 11:
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Mark 6:
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 10:
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

One of the highest Church offices ever for a mortal, would be one of the 12 Apostles. Peter was one of them. In Galatians 2:11-13 Peter was waffeling in a major Church crisis and helped the opposition. Paul rebukes the local church members in ch - 3. There does not seem to have been any heros or heroines of faith taking the Scriptures and stemming the tide. There seems to be a time to stand up and defend Scriptural faith, whether your are a pion or a big wheel. Sometimes the problems are members (Ananias & his wife Sapphira) or leaders (Church council that sent Paul into the temple - Paul's death walk.)

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited April 06, 2001).]

"If he is preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Seems that the disciples had a problem of understanding what that was, and complained that someone else was healing. As I recall, Christ said that those who are not against us are for us. So, who has the authority to criticize anyone because they do not believe as I do?

I must determine for myself how I relate to the gospel. I must use the tests that have been suggested, but if I believe the SOP, because I have a different opinion, I should not publicly undermine the ministry of someone who may believe differently.

We have 27 fundamental beliefs. Those are the recognized tests for membership in the SDA church along with the baptismal vows. If I deviate from those, I have determined that I do not believe the basic precepts of this church. If I believe differently from anyone else in areas outside of those fundamentals, whether or not it affects my relationship with God, no one has cause to suggest I am any less than a good and upstanding member of the SDA church.

Can you tell a true member of Christ's family? Of course. Christ gave us the "test". He said the true test is love for one another. Interesting, Christ did not make the test involve sacrifice, diet, day of rest, clothing, etc. The test set forth by Christ was love. Will the true SDA church stand up? Only if you accept the true test do you have the right to stand as a disciple of Christ. Only if you can agree to the 27 fundamental beliefs can you claim full allegiance to the SDA church. Any further tests are frivolous.

How does one draw the line between being a watchman of Ezekiel 33:1-7, and simply criticizing?

quote:

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Ezekiel 33:1 "Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me."

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Who are the watchmen?

Who are the criticizers?

What's the difference?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl