I'm not sure if this is the forum to place this thread or not, maybe it should be in the forum for end time events, anyway can any one explain to me, are we in the counterfeit revival just prior to the end or are we in the true revival at the end of time?

Maranatha p.33
Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the
earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival
of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic
times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon
His children. At that time many will separate themselves from
those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted
love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people,
will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be
proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's
second coming. The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work;
and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will
endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those
churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will
make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there
will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest.
Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them,
when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise,
Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world.

2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Is this the revival that we see today?

This passage is orginally found in Great Controversy. The next paragraph tells us some of what this false revival will be like.

In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God's word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God's blessing is not bestowed. And by the rule which Christ Himself has given, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), it is evident that these movements are not the work of the Spirit of God. {GC 464.2}

Look at the points of a false revival:
1. Emotional excitement
2. Mingling of the true with the false
3. Neglect of the testimony of the Bible
4. Turning away from plain, soul-testing truths
5. No requirement for self-denial and renunciation of the world.

Considering the points one by one, is there any emotional excitement in the Christian churches of today? Consider something EGW wrote a hundred years ago.

The manner in which the meetings in Indiana have been carried on, with noise and confusion, does not commend them to thoughtful, intelligent minds. There is nothing in these demonstrations which will convince the world that we have the truth. Mere noise and shouting are no evidence of sanctification, or of the descent of the Holy Spirit. Your wild demonstrations create only disgust in the minds of unbelievers. The fewer of such demonstrations there are, the better it will be for the actors and for the people in general. {2SM 35.1}

It is impossible to estimate too largely the work that the Lord will accomplish through His proposed vessels in carrying out His mind and purpose. The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. {2SM 36.2}

The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working. {2SM 36.3}

Do we see this today? Absolutely. It has crept in to every denomination, even SDA. Today may Christians claim that they are experiencing the Holy Spirit and their "proof" is their emotional excitement. The music helps them to reach such a "high."

We'll cover the other points in future posts, and I'm sure there will be others who will have thoughts to add.

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
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Linda

This behaviour has been going on for a very long time.
As a child, I remember going to several churches where the behaviour wasa frightening (to me at least), people rolling in the aisles (from which we got our term 'Holy Rollers) jumping up and down during singing, shouting unintelligible words and phrases.
It is the same in many churches today, only more so.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
This behavior has been going on for a very long time.
As a child, I remember going to several churches where the behavior was frightening (to me at least), people rolling in the aisles (from which we got our term 'Holy Rollers) jumping up and down during singing, shouting unintelligible words and phrases.
It is the same in many churches today, only more so.

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I have heard of the "holy rollers" myself, I'm originally from Alabama and the phenomenon was well known in the 50's, but what I see taking place in the SDA church that I attend is frightening. God's Holiness is not reverenced.
Sister White says "a revival of primitive godliness" before the final visitation of Gods judgments upon the earth will take place.
2 Tim. 3:5 2nd half states ....having a form of godliness, but denying the power
thereof: from such turn away.
Am I required to turn away from the godlessness of my church? If I believe the bible (and I do) then I must.
This style of "worship" has been delegated by the conference ministerial secretary through out our conference.

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James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Perhaps from among these inspired words is a purpose of working among these folks for a while.

Jude defines two groups of folks and contrasts them. One group has a redemptive mission, the other group does not.
Jude:
1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God, our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Would God put you in which group ? Which group has a redemptive mission ?

It is a big challenge, if you accept it.

Perhaps the Medical Missionary Forum could be useful @ times ?

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited August 18, 2001).]

Rick, what is the actual problem in your church? No-one should advise you unless they have all the information. I agree that all the charismatic meetings I have ever attended were either like rock concerts or full of weirdness - people dancing and waving their arms about, speaking in gibberish, people falling to the ground. I believe satanic power was at work in these meetings.
But I also remember a time when it was considered outrageous to play a guitar in a church (because rock and roll singers used them) even if the song was deeply spiritual.
While I think you're referring to more serious things than guitar accompaniment, I'd be interested to hear about the specific things, because you say the conference has allowed them.

quote:

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Originally posted by zyph:
Rick, what is the actual problem in your church? No-one should advise you unless they have all the information. I agree that all the charismatic meetings I have ever attended were either like rock concerts or full of weirdness - people dancing and waving their arms about, speaking in gibberish, people falling to the ground. I believe satanic power was at work in these meetings.
But I also remember a time when it was considered outrageous to play a guitar in a church (because rock and roll singers used them) even if the song was deeply spiritual.
While I think you're referring to more serious things than guitar accompaniment, I'd be interested to hear about the specific things, because you say the conference has allowed them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by zyph:
Rick, what is the actual problem in your church? No-one should advise you unless they have all the information. I agree that all the charismatic meetings I have ever attended were either like rock concerts or full of weirdness - people dancing and waving their arms about, speaking in gibberish, people falling to the ground. I believe satanic power was at work in these meetings.
But I also remember a time when it was considered outrageous to play a guitar in a church (because rock and roll singers used them) even if the song was deeply spiritual.
While I think you're referring to more serious things than guitar accompaniment, I'd be interested to hear about the specific things, because you say the conference has allowed them.

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Our Pastor has stated to me that he plans to "drag the congregation out of the 1950's style of worship",and he is planning to have a rock band with drums on the platform and a "singing group" not choir. We have had "Veggie Tales" skits for church service, and the last communion service that I can remember was in May 2000. We have on average a 5 minute free for all at the beginning of the service that is listed as welcoming each other. We have a song leader that dances as he sings. That is why I've asked the question about Primitive Godliness. I come away from church sighing and crying than refreshed and blessed. I've almost decided that my family would be better off staying home and watching 3ABN.

I think some of the things we hold to ARE just cultural, but the bible indicates that when we come to worship God, it is a solemn and sacred event.
I think an afternoon youth service should be more relaxed, and aimed at young people, and the skits, etc, may be appropriate if they are to make a point and not entertain in a secular way. The band sounds a bit rich unless the music is truly sacred. The lack of communion would be a concern. I don't think the term "singing group" is offensive, necessarily, as some local choirs fall a little short in the talent department.

Have you and others who are concerned spoken privately to the minister?

I guess if you feel you can't influence any positive change then you ought to find a church which does have a reverent worship time. This can be done without bad feelings, and if you explain your motives, tell them you're worried for their sake, and you feel they are mistaken. Be reasonable and approachable, but make it clear that the Lord is impressing you that this style of worship is not correct.

Don't stay home. You will grow away from the church. If you have to travel a lot further, do so. It will be worth it.

It is better to attend another church, if possible, please, don't keep yourself from fellowshipping with othere believers.
Are you the only one with these concerns?
Aren't there other members that have the same reluctance to denigrate worship to a rock concert?
How far is it to the next nearest church to you?
I am fortunate, here, as there are 3 or 4 other churches within 60 miles of here.
My home church is a conservitive one, we do not accept the 'modern' style of worship.
If a Pastor tried it, he'd be out on his ear real quick.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8