|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,631
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73231
04/17/06 08:07 PM
04/17/06 08:07 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Quote:
Roseangela: You state: "must necessarily refer to the three members of the Godhead." Are you exalting or worshiping the Holy Spirit? Is there a Bible text that commands you to do this? EGWsaid: "The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted." See Youth Instructor, 7 July 1898.
Dr. Glenn, again I insist in the context. Ellen White said that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted, because she is making a contrast with “the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent.” Because the verse alluded to refers to these two persons, she also refers only to them. But this does not mean the Holy Spirit is to be excluded.
Now, if the phrase “Lord thy God” doesn’t refer exclusively to God the Father, it obviously refers to the Godhead, and the Godhead is composed of three (not two) persons, powers, members, worthies or dignitaries:
“The three powers of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus.” {AUCR, October 7, 1907 par. 9}
“Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf” (MS 11, 1901). {7BC 908.11}
“When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,--the three great personal Dignitaries of heaven.” {SD 351.3}
“The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness.” (MS 92, 1901). {5BC 1110.8}
The eternal covenant is the covenant of these three persons:
“The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.”--Counsels on Health, p. 222. {7ABC 442.1}
“What a salvation is revealed in the covenant by which God promised to be our Father, His only-begotten Son our Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit our Comforter, Counselor, and Sanctifier! Upon no lower ground than this is it safe for us to place our feet.” {HP 137.5}
“Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the covenant God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, His Son, and His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf” (MS 11, 1901). {7BC 908.11}
So, answering your question, yes, I exalt the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, because I was baptized in the name of these three persons, and without any of them my salvation would never be possible.
Quote:
Roseangela: Jesus Christ the only begotten Son repeatedly talks about the superiority of His Father. See John 5:19, John 5:26, John 14:28, John 17:2, Revelation 1:1. In John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12 he refers to His Father as "My God" thus recognizing superiority.
What’s the reason for Jesus’ insistence on His submission to His Father? It was because He became man’s representative, and as such He must do what man should have done from the beginning – instead of trying to exalt himself to become like God, man should have been subject to God.
“In Christ there was a subjection of the human to the divine. He clothed his divinity with humanity, and placed his own person under obedience to divinity. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve to believe that they should be as gods. Christ requires that humanity shall obey divinity. In his humanity, Christ was obedient to all his Father's commandments.” {RH, November 9, 1897 par. 10}
Quote:
The Son was exalted to be equal to "God the Father". EGW said: "Our great Exemplar was exalted to be equal with God." See 2T 426.
Ellen White speaks of two occasions when Christ was exalted to be equal with God. First, at the beginning of Lucifer’s rebellion (PP 37), and then at Christ’s ascension. But she is clear that before Christ was exalted to be equal with God in the presence of the angels, He was already equal with God. This was done just to dispel any doubt that could be raised in the minds of the angels through Satan’s lies.
Quote:
Roseangela: I do not believe the word "allowed" has the same meaning as the word "given". I believe it changes the meaning.
Dr. Glenn, the Greek word is didomi, which means: give; grant, allow, permit; place, put; appoint; establish; give out; pay; produce, yield, cause; entrust; bring (offerings); inflict (punishment).
Please note that the text is not speaking of giving something to someone, but of giving to someone to have something. So the obvious meaning is to grant, allow, permit. And the reason is given in the following verse: “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.”
Quote:
Roseangela: If you believe that "original, unborrowed, and underived life" cannot be given, then you are going to miss out on the greatest gift Jesus Christ, your Saviour, wants to give you.
Please notice what the text you quoted says: "This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ."
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life" (1 John 5:11, 12).
It is inherent in Christ, not in us. That’s why it is underived in Christ, not in us, since we receive it from Him. What you receive is derived from a source, so it cannot be underived.
“We derive immortality from God by receiving the life of Christ, for in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (ST, June 17, 1897).
|
 Reply
 Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73233
04/17/06 11:24 PM
04/17/06 11:24 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Quote:
Dr. Glenn, may I suggest that you apply your academic skills to your theology? Your belief does not follow from the text you quoted.
It seemed to me to follow. God gifts freely to all, but how we respond determines to what extent God can continue to bestow of gifts. Not because of any lack on God's part, of course, but simply because our unbelief limits our capacity to receive the gifts. Our unbelief does not make of no effect the faithfulness of God, but it does have an impact on our own ability to receive gifts. God will give us gifts as fast as we are willing and able to receive them, according to our abilities to make use of them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73234
04/17/06 11:29 PM
04/17/06 11:29 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Quote:
Dr. Glenn, again I insist in the context. Ellen White said that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted, because she is making a contrast with “the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent.” Because the verse alluded to refers to these two persons, she also refers only to them. But this does not mean the Holy Spirit is to be excluded.
I've noticed this same logic, or lack of logic, apears to me to be applied by others who hold to the view being suggested in other contexts as well, such as Patriarchs and Prophets. It is suggested that because Ellen White spoke of only God and Jesus Christ in the context of the creation, that the Holy Spirit was not there. But if one takes into account all of the inspired counsel on the subject, her intent is seen.
When making an argument from silence, one must take into account all of the relevant material. An argument from silence may be a valid argument, but all source material needs to be considered.
For example, nowhere does the Bible speak of the Sabbath being changed to Sunday. This is a valid argument from silence because all the source material agrees.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73235
04/18/06 02:35 AM
04/18/06 02:35 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Dr. Glenn, again I insist in the context. Ellen White said that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted, because she is making a contrast with “the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent.” Because the verse alluded to refers to these two persons, she also refers only to them. But this does not mean the Holy Spirit is to be excluded.
I've noticed this same logic, or lack of logic, apears to me to be applied by others who hold to the view being suggested in other contexts as well, such as Patriarchs and Prophets. It is suggested that because Ellen White spoke of only God and Jesus Christ in the context of the creation, that the Holy Spirit was not there. But if one takes into account all of the inspired counsel on the subject, her intent is seen.
When making an argument from silence, one must take into account all of the relevant material. An argument from silence may be a valid argument, but all source material needs to be considered.
For example, nowhere does the Bible speak of the Sabbath being changed to Sunday. This is a valid argument from silence because all the source material agrees.
Dear Tom and Roseangela:
Have you read the full context? Have you read the complete article? What about the particular paragraph you quoted? Here is that paragraph in context:
"And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." "And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them." "And Jesus increased his wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted."
She contrasted the "brightest example the world has yet seen" to the "greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent".
What she is really saying is don't go the the "greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent" to get wisdom, but rather follow the example of Jesus who increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. The phrase "who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent" could refer to John 17:3. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent".
She then makes the point that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.
I believe that if she wanted to include the Holy Spirit or someone else besides the Father and the Son she would not have used the word "alone".
grw
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73236
04/18/06 03:06 AM
04/18/06 03:06 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
|
|
Dear Roseangela:
In regard "The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.", please read the complete article entitled "July 7, 1898 God's Word Our Study Book. No. 2" and read my answer to Tom below.
In regard to "superiority", read the complete chapter of First Corinthians 15 and particularly verse 28 which says: "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
The issue of "superiority" goes to the fact that those who hold to the trinity doctrine don't believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God in his divine person, but is only the literal Son of God in his human person. I believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God in his divine person and in his human person and that in his divine person and in his human person he keeps the fifth commandment and honors his Father and recognizes his superiority.
In regard to "In him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour.", you claimed that "original, unborrowed, and underived life" cannot be given because otherwise it would not be "underived". I made the point that you were wrong because it is given to the person as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour.
grw
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson Study #3 - Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT
#73239
04/18/06 01:31 PM
04/18/06 01:31 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Dr. Glenn, You said, Quote:
She contrasted the "brightest example the world has yet seen" to the "greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent". What she is really saying is don't go the the "greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent" to get wisdom, but rather follow the example of Jesus who increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. The phrase "who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent" could refer to John 17:3. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent". She then makes the point that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.
I think I said the same thing you are saying, although the conclusion was different. Here are my words:
“Ellen White said that the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted, because she is making a contrast with ‘the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent.’ Because the verse alluded to [as you said, John 17:3] refers to these two persons, she also refers only to them. But this does not mean the Holy Spirit is to be excluded.”
Quote:
I believe that if she wanted to include the Holy Spirit or someone else besides the Father and the Son she would not have used the word "alone."
The fact that she uses the word “alone” or “only” does not mean she is excluding the other persons of the Godhead, but that she is emphasizing that particular person or persons within that particular context:
“Christ only has immortality.” {RH, July 10, 1900 par. 15}
“Only He who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light and life, should say, ‘I have power to lay it {my life} down, and I have power to take it again’ (John 10:18).” {1SM 301.2}
“Christ alone can transform the character.” {OHC 228.2}.
“The Spirit of God alone can make and keep men pure." {ST, November 5, 1894 par. 8}
Quote:
In regard to "superiority", read the complete chapter of First Corinthians 15 and particularly verse 28 which says: "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
1 Cor. 15 should be considered in its eschatological context – when the plan of redemption will reach its final fulfillment. In the beginning God subjected all things to Adam (Ps. 8:6), but he rebelled against God. As sin in this world originated with the insubordination of the first Adam against God, sin must end with the act of the second Adam subordinating Himself to God. When all things are again subject to the second Adam (1 Cor. 15:28), He will subject Himself to God, as the first Adam should have done. Then the plan of redemption and Christ’s mission will be fulfilled. Sin began with the first Adam’s act of insubordination, and sin will end with the last Adam’s act of subordination.
However, this act is symbolical. Christ and God have always reigned jointly, and after sin is eradicated the Bible presents their throne as a joint throne (Rev. 22:3).
Quote:
you claimed that "original, unborrowed, and underived life" cannot be given because otherwise it would not be "underived".
What I claimed is that the underived life is underived in the Giver, but not in the recipient. A life which is received from another source cannot be called underived.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
|
|
