I agree with your comments John. What would you suggest as an alternative phrase? How about, "that which God allows to happen because it is not in His character to force His will upon His creatures." Hmmm. That's accurate, but a bit wordy.

How about, that which God suffers.

Perhaps we do not realize how much suffering God endures. Perhaps the cross tells us something!

Amen!

MM - James, if Jesus had not forewarned our first parents concerning Satan’s rebellion and plan to deceive them what would that say about Him? In my mind it would imply that He was uncaring. Besides, knowing about evil is not the same thing as knowing evil. There is a difference. Does it translate well in your native language?

Do you mean knowing that Satan is an enemy of God and that A&E must be careful for him for he wants to deceive them is not knowledge of evil?

What does God mean with the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? What knowledge some one would gain when eating it?

In His love

James S.

So, what is the conclusion of this discussion? Why humanity need redemption? Is it because God’s love needs him to save us or is it because we want to be saved?

In His love

James S

Views of the cause of death in this thread:

1. Sin causes death, death is the inevitable result of sin. God has nothing to do with human death, not in the 1st death neither the 2nd death.
2. Stopped eating the fruit of life is the cause of the 1st death and the fire that comes from God that burn the wicked is the caused of the 2nd death.

Yes, Tom has a valid reason to believe that “sin causes death”, not only it is supported by the Scripture but also by the SOP, so is M.M.’s view, according to him it is also supported by the Scripture and the SOP.

What I see might adding to Tom’s reasoning is that though only Adam and Eve that sinned but plants and animals died too. According to Tom, if only men that sinned and if sin does not cause death, then plants and animals would not die. Meanwhile if men died because of stopped eating the fruit of life, why plants and animal died too though they do not partake in the fruit of life?

I think, man is the ruler of the world, when they died, the world die too.

1st view placed God without stain, blameless, innocent and a God that loves.
2nd view placed God as the author of death or the cause of death.

I don’t like the 2nd view, but since death is men’s choice, then God might be viewed also blameless and innocent.

So, both views need God’s love to redeem us.

In His love

James S.

James, when I was first studying to become an SDA, I looked into the question of the imortality of the soul. It seemed to me there were many Scripture texts which could be taken both ways. I wonder how I would resolve the question. Would I stack up the texts on each side, and see which had more? What principle would I use to determine which view was correct? (Obviously one of the two views was looking at things incorrectly, assuming the Scriptures were consistent with themselves).

I considered the implications of the soul's being immortal. This would mean that hell would be eternal. I had trouble with the concept that God would cause the suffering of those who disagreed with Him for all eternity. This seemed to be very much out of harmony with God's character.

The reason I'm mentioning this is by way of analogy. As we consider different views of things, the view which portrays God's character in the best light will always be correct. This sentence, as I wrote it, is absolutely correct, but needs to be carefully explained. I did not write that the view which *we perceive* as portraying God's character in the best light will always be correct, but the view which actually does portray God's character in the best light is the correct view.

So the question is, how do we determine when God's character is being most accurately portrayed? Is it possible that we might give preference to a view which portrays God in a more negative way? Do we have a predisposition to do this?

The answer is yes, we do have a predisposition to see God's character in a negative way. The reason is that to the extent that we perceive God's character as arbitrary or petty, or selfish, we provide ourselves with a buffer against our own sin. If God is like us, the we are not so bad. This serves as a defence mechanism, so we can avoid having to face our true condition. It's like a self-induces amnesia. However, these things all happen unconsciously. The defence mechanism is triggered by the mind to protect itself.

The Gospel comes to the rescue because it gives us the courage to confront the ugly truth about ourselves. When we perceive the goodness of God, that leads us to have the conviction that God really does love and accept us as we are, and leads us to request Him to reveal our condition to ourselves, which is to say that His goodness leads us to repentance. Ellen White used to pray for God to show her the worst of her case. (That's a prayer that takes a lot of courage to pray!)

Getting back to the question of how we can know if we are correctly perceiving God's character. Here are three principles to consider:
a)Our conscience tells us if a certain view of God's character is right. The Scripture tells us of those whose conscience's are seared, but if we wish to know the truth, the conscience will be a valid indicator, as Jesus tells us that if we will to do His will, we will know the truth.
b)Compare the view of God's character with the character of Jesus Christ. All that we can know about God was revealed in the character of Jesus Christ as He lived among us.
c)The Holy Spirit's job is to guide us into all truth. This goes along with a). If we ask God for bread, He will not give us a stone.

Regarding the question of why humanity needs to be redeemed, first the question of what this is addressing needs to be considered. That is, what is redemption referring to?

Redemption has to do with slavery. We are redeemed from slavery.

What is it that causes slavery? Jesus tells us in John 8:33 or so that whoever commits sin is the slave of sin. It is sin which enslaves us.

So the reason humanity needs to be redeemed is because it has been enslaved by the power of sin. Sin enslaves us by its power to deceive. The way to overcome the power of sin, and hence redeem us, is by the revelation of truth. The sacrifice of Christ (which includes His entire life, not just His death; also the resurrection) reveals the truth, freeing us from the power of sin. As Paul puts it:

Quote:

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For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col. 1:19-21)

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We are reconciled by the blood of His cross. We used to be alienated and enemies in our mind because of sin, but now we have been reconciled. Since we were alienated and enemies in our minds, it is in our minds that we need to be reconciled. We are reconciled by the truth, when we believe it. The truth is that God so loved us that He gave us His Son. The truth is that God is just like Jesus Christ; when we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father.