Originated from DenBorg post:

James,

Your comments indicate that Adam alone sinned, and the rest of humanity is without sin. You ask, "What did we do?"

Is Adam the only member of the human race who has sinned? James, are you without sin? When Christ said to the men, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", who was left besides Jesus?

Unquote.

We died in Adam because of Adam’s sin. This is the 1st death; we inherit from Adam through the multiplication of the flesh, nothing we can do to escape from it. Babes, even unborn babes who are still in their mother’s womb might die without even knowing what sin is and commits a sin. They didn’t ask to be born, what did they do that they deserve to die?

I think, this answer your question.

A man died the 2nd death because of his own sin, but it is unfair when compare to Adam, because Adam has an advantage against him. Adam was created sinless and holy with the agape love of God in his heart, this man was born in sin, growth in sin and sin is a natural part of his. But he never asked and didn’t deserve to be born in this state, so contrary to the plan of creation, with consequences that lead to the 2nd death, while Adam was created to live forever. According to me this is also an unjust case.

But why, instead of forgiving our sins and open the door of heaven for those who believe in God creator of heaven and earth and live with faith in Him, He sent Christ to redeem us, which you have asked too.

In His love

James S.

Tom you wrote:

In addition to Adam's sinning, we have each chosen the way of sin in our own lives. So it's not a question of only suffering for someone else's choice, but since we have each one gone our own way, and chosen the way of death, it is inevitable that we should die.
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What God can do is to transform us from being member so the kingdom of the evil one, where selfishness reigns, which must lead to death, to being members of His kingdom where love and unselfishness reigns. The only way to do this was to make clear God's character. So Jesus came to do this very thing.

Unquote.

That’s what I said to DenBorg; We didn’t asked to be born, especially in sin, where sin is a part of our nature. It is unfair to be born in this state, it is unfair to grow in sin, it is unfair to die for the sins we committed because we were born in sin. It is all unfair to compare to Adam, whom were created sinless in holiness with unselfish heart to live eternally.

Maybe, that’s why Christ came to redeem us?

In His love

James S.

Darius.

You wrote: Our need is not salvation but life eternal. We have the first but we keep postponing the latter.

Unquote.

Do you mean with this: God had saved us, but to live eternally is a choice of our own, by knowing God, Creator of heaven and earth.

So to speak, saving humanity is God’s need, all what we want is to live eternally, no matter how we get it.

In His love

James S

Posted by Tom Ewall - Mon Apr 24 2006 12:27 AM

God is responsible in a certain sense, in that He created man.

Unquote.

Do you really believe this? It is important for me.

Didn’t God create Adam & Eve in His image and after His likeness? Would He be held responsible when something goes wrong with His creations while man was created with the ability to think and freedom of choice?

I don’t think so. God is not responsible for what Adam and Eve had chosen and did and the result that affect humanity. The responsibility lies fully on Adam’s shoulder. God has nothing to do with it.

But when Toyota produced new sedan and delivered it to the market and a defect had been encountered by the customers, Toyota would be responsible, for the unit was fabricated with a defect in it.

In His love

James S

James, when I said God was in a sense responsible, it was in the sense that His character motivates Him to take responsibility for His children, because He loves them, which is what I explained. Not in the sense that He could held responsible.

For example, if you have a child who is an adult who has a problem with drugs, through no fault of your own, it may be that you cannot be held responsible for the child's actions, but you, because you love the child, still feel the responsibility to do all that you can to help.

God is constrained by His love to do all He can for us.

Darius,

English is clearly not James' first language. Please make a little effort to figure out what he's trying to say. There's no need to be defensive.

He's saying that how we get eternal life is not important in terms of his restatement of your position. He was only trying to restate your position to see if he got it right.

Tom.

Reading your post, I understand your view as follows (trying to write it in my own words):

Death is not God creation; it would never happen to men if Adam & Eve didn’t sin. So, where did it come from? It is the inevitable result of sin! Sin causes death; “the wage of sin is death.”

God could not take us to heaven without “erasing” the sin from within us, a sin which is a part of our nature. But He could not do this by just miraculously changing our sinful heart to a sinless heart. Why He could not do this? Because, if He did so, He would breach His own integrity against the law: “….for when you eat it, you will surely die.” Today he said you would surely die when you transgress my law, but the next day he says “you are healed!” This would indicate Him as a God whose mind is changeable. And it is very dangerous if we have a God who is changeable.

So, how could He bring us to heaven without breaching His own integrity against the law?

No other way, He Himself, the Law Giver must come to die for us in order we may live, transferring the penalty of transgression upon His own shoulder. But is this enough? No! It is just an act of eradicating the death from the fate of humanity, but something more must be done! He must erase the sin in us; otherwise humanity will keep on sinning, and inevitable they all would die again and the death of our Redeemer would be useless! But how? By giving those who believe Him as their Savior a new sinless heart, trough the miracle of rebirth, taking away their sinful heart and then leading them with His Spirit to the fullness of the image of God.

He could not just changing every bodies heart instantly, because that would be forcing His own will that might be against our own will.

If this is true, then I have the answer to my questions, thanks to your and others contribution by answering my questions.

But, if death is God creation, I think the view above could not stand!

In His love

James S

Tom.

Reading your post, I understand your view as follows (trying to write it in my own words):

Death is not God creation; it would never happen to men if Adam & Eve didn’t sin. So, where did it come from? It is the inevitable result of sin! Sin causes death; “the wage of sin is death.”

God could not take us to heaven without “erasing” the sin from within us, a sin which is a part of our nature. But He could not do this by just miraculously changing our sinful heart to a sinless heart. Why He could not do this? Because, if He did so, He would breach His own integrity against the law: “….for when you eat it, you will surely die.” Today he said you would surely die when you transgress my law, but the next day he says “you are healed!” This would indicate Him as a God whose mind is changeable. And it is very dangerous if we have a God who is changeable.

The problem is not that God would be changeable in this scenario, but that the real issue would not have been dealt with. Sin does not cause death because God says so. It would cause death regardless of whether or not God said it did. Similarly, sin would cause death irrespective of the law. Both the law and God agree with the reality that sin causes death, and both serve the purpose of inducing us to be reconciled with God, so we may be restored to obedience/harmony/life.

So, how could He bring us to heaven without breaching His own integrity against the law?

No other way, He Himself, the Law Giver must come to die for us in order we may live, transferring the penalty of transgression upon His own shoulder.

Again, this isn't the issue. The problem is not His integrity or the law. The problem is in our alientated minds and hearts. The question to ask is, how could God bring man into harmony with Himself and the principles of His government? God cannot change Himself, nor His principles. This is what Satan has been urging God to do from the beginning, but to do such we lead to destruction, because God's principles alone are the principles of life. Rather than changing Himself, God must change man. How can this be done? *That's* the question. Here's the answer:

Quote:

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[M]an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762)

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But is this enough? No! It is just an act of eradicating the death from the fate of humanity, but something more must be done! He must erase the sin in us; otherwise humanity will keep on sinning, and inevitable they all would die again and the death of our Redeemer would be useless! But how? By giving those who believe Him as their Savior a new sinless heart, trough the miracle of rebirth, taking away their sinful heart and then leading them with His Spirit to the fullness of the image of God.

This is getting to the real issue. I wouldn't say a "sinless heart" however, but a heart in harmony with God and the principles of His government. Other than that small comment, I like what you wrote.

He could not just changing every bodies heart instantly, because that would be forcing His own will that might be against our own will.

Right! This is it exactly. We can view the whole issue in terms of freedom. God, in order to be consistent with His own character and the principles of His government, will not in any sense force our will. He must design a plan to reconcile us to Himself without violating any of His principles, especially the principle of freedom. He must induce us to voluntarily give ourselves to Him, as He has given Himself for us. This giving is the fulfillment of His law.

If this is true, then I have the answer to my questions, thanks to your and others contribution by answering my questions.

But, if death is God creation, I think the view above could not stand!

Death is not God's creation. Satan is the author of sin, suffering and death. God had no intention that death, or sin, should ever come into existence.