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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73437
05/10/06 07:58 PM
05/10/06 07:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, on page 11 of this thread I quoted several inspired insights that describe God's feelings and attitudes in regard to the punishment and death of the wicked in the lake of fire. Please explain how my view differs from the apostle John's and Sister White's in the quotes I posted. Thank you. What you quoted from EGW was just a vision. I quoted her interpretation. Her interpretations features the following points:
a)The destruction of the wicked does not take place due to an arbitrary act of God. (In your view, it does)
b)The wicked are destroyed as the result of their own choice (In you view, they aren't; rather it's by God's choice).
c)The wicked separate themselves from God, who alone is the source of life (In your view, this doesn't happen; rather God causes them excruciating pain by forcing them to be scalded by something akin to molten lava, supernaturally keeping them alive until they have suffered enough to satisfy His thirst for vengeance).
d)The glory of God destroys the wicked (In your view, this doesn't happen.)
e)The wicked die as the inevitable result of sin. (In your view, they don't, because sin does not result in death. God's killing people is what causes death.)
f)God did not permit Satan and his host to experience the inevitable result of sin until it could be seen for what it is in the death of Christ, lest it be confused with something God was doing, which would cause an evil seed of doubt to emerge. (In your view, it is something God is doing. You do not account for the evil seed of doubt this would create if it were true)
Jesus has "no pleasure" in the death of the wicked, but when justice is finally served He will be satisfied, His wrath will be appeased, and He will rejoice that sin and death are eliminated with unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. That's how the inspired authors describe it. This is an idea of your own mind. There is nowhere in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy which speaks of God's wrath being appeased. God's wrath against sin *cannot* be appeased. God will always hate it. You speak as if appeasing God's wrath is a good thing, but if you will search the Spirit of Prophecy you will see that she speaks of such only of the context of being a delusion of Satan.Tom and John, as to what causes the first death I think it is clear in the Bible and SOP that not being able to eat regularly of the tree of life is what causes us to gradually die the first death. Sin is not some kind of toxic or poisonous element that kills naturally like a lethal injection. I posted many statements from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy which show this idea is not correct. One from the SOP I posted three times. I'll post it a fourth time here, for your convenience. "The sin of man has brought the sure result,--decay, deformity, and death. (1SDABC 1085)" This shows it is the sin of man which brought death. No only do men die, but plants and animals as well. Why do they die?Otherwise, Jesus would not have had to prevent sinners from eating of the tree of life. The tree had no magical powers apart from God. God could have allowed them to eat of the tree of life and have them still die. God is more powerful than the tree He created. The issue is not the tree in and of itself, but the lesson of the tree, which is that sin results in death, and God did not wish to perpetuate sin.Adam and Eve would have been punished and destroyed immediately according to their deeds. They would not have died a long lingering death. Without the plan of salvation such a slow death would have been pointless and cruel. It would have served no purpose. Without the plan of salvation, the death would have been instantaneous. See FW 21, paragraph 2I agree, though, that how we die is not as important as why Jesus will not allow us to eat of the tree of life. He knew that a minority of sinners would accept Him and benefit from the plan of salvation. So He granted the human race probationary time to decide for or against His kingdom and character. But Jesus loves us too much to allow us to live in a sinful state during the entire time Earth is on probation. Six thousand years is too long to live in a sinful world. Thus, He denies us access to the tree of life. The result is we die gradually. The sleep of death is a blessing in disguise. The decay, disease, and deformity that affects nature and man are lessons we can learn from and are the result of the curse Jesus pronounced on account of sin. You're making it sound as if the decay, disease and deformity that affects nature was caused by God! This is completely backwards. It is *sin* which causes decay, disease and deformity. "The sin of man has brought the sure result,--decay, deformity, and death." When Gen. 3:17 says the ground is cursed, the idea is not the God Himself made the curse happen, but that God is telling that it happened. Thus Young's literal translation has "17And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed [is] the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life," The Portuguese has "maldita é a terra por tua causa;" (cursed is the ground for your sake) not "maldita seja a terra por tua causa;" (cursed be the ground for your sake) The www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm has "being cursed." The point of this is that the language does not indicate that God caused the curse, but that God recognized it. The Spirit of Prophecy agrees:Quote:
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (2SM 288)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73438
05/10/06 10:44 PM
05/10/06 10:44 PM
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Quote:
There is nowhere in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy which speaks of God's wrath being appeased. God's wrath against sin *cannot* be appeased. God will always hate it.
You quite obviously have the wrong definition of the word "appeased".
If you are starving and you then eat a good meal, it is then said that your hunger was appeased. Another way to say it is that your hunger was satisfied.
Is this saying then that you are now OK with being starved? Does this mean that you now love and enjoy being starved and no longer hate starvation?
Neither does it mean that God now loves sin and no longer hates it.
And if God's wrath is never appeased (using the proper definition of the word), then I would suggest to you that God would then always be angry about each sin that each sinner committed and that no amount of punishment would be enough, which really goes right along with what others teach about God punishing sinners for all of eternity, keeping them alive because His wrath is never appeased.
My Bible teaches that God's wrath will be appeased. Each will receive their reward/punishment according to their own works, the sin problem will be dealt with and sin and the wicked will be destroyed, and sin will never arise again.
Furthermore, God will forget all our sins. If God's wrath is never appeased, He could never forget our sins. Yes, God's wrath will be appeased; which in no wise means that God no longer hates sin.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73439
05/11/06 01:07 AM
05/11/06 01:07 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
John, I see degeneration as being aligned with the concept of entropy, which I see dependent upon sin. Without sin, there would be not "friction" in the system, so to speak. It would work perfectly. So there wouldn't be any degerneration or degredation.
In one of the SOP quotes I cited, it spoke of how decay came from sin, which agrees with my understanding.
One other comment regarding the John quote. When it says the spirit gives life, could that be the Spirit gives life? What I understand Jesus meant was that:
a)Knowing God is eternal life (John 17:4)
b)We need spiritual understanding in order to know God, as in a)
This is the same idea as when Jesus said that those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth. My understanding of this would have to do with the part of the mind that deals with spiritual things, which would have to do with what the Spirit of Prophecy calls that "higher powers of the mind." I don't understand that there is a spirit within us which exists apart from the mind.
I don't know if I'm disagreeing with what you're presenting or not. Overall, I'm right with you, as far as the big picture is concerned. I'm not sure if we might see some of the smaller details a little differently.
Tom, what you are saying is right in line with what I am saying. What I am pointing out is not contrary to what you are saying but rather amplifying it.
This is the key to understand rightly the word “by itself”. "By itself" would mean "not upheld by God" There is a tendency to think of heavenly physical things as having eternal life inherently. If eternal life were inherently in physics it would cease to be virtue. The primary point is that in heaven all living things live by the spirit and not vice-versa. That is to say all thing receive life from God on an ongoing basis. In stating that sin causes degeneration (which is true) we are also saying that righteousness is life; meaning it is the spirit that gives life. No physics of itself has life eternal. Since sin works death, and righteousness works life, therefore the body is made subject to it. Life eternal is substanced in the spirit which means God. It is by spirit that the physics gets life.
Is that clearer.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73440
05/11/06 03:12 AM
05/11/06 03:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, that helped. I think you are saying the same thing as I have said (in quoting Ellen White) that the laws of nature are not self-acting. It takes active participation on the part of God (more than we can imagine) to make things work. Does "spirit" mean "the higher powers of the mind that deal with spiritual things"? I agree with the statement that righteousness is life. That's just another way of saying that to know God is eternal life. Also the end of the law is righteousness, and Christ is the end of the law, which is eternal life. These things all go together. Another way of stating what you've said in relation to man's setting up his own justice rather than accepting the justice of God is: Quote:
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. (John 9:39-41)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73441
05/11/06 03:31 AM
05/11/06 03:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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You quite obviously have the wrong definition of the word "appeased". I see that appease means: "pacify: cause to be more favorably inclined; gain the good will of" also "propitiate: make peace with." When one speaks of appeasing the wrath of God, it is this last one that particularly applies, don't you agree?
Does God make peace with sin? I don't think so. Do you?If you are starving and you then eat a good meal, it is then said that your hunger was appeased. Another way to say it is that your hunger was satisfied. Is this saying then that you are now OK with being starved? Does this mean that you now love and enjoy being starved and no longer hate starvation? Neither does it mean that God now loves sin and no longer hates it. And if God's wrath is never appeased (using the proper definition of the word), then I would suggest to you that God would then always be angry about each sin that each sinner committed and that no amount of punishment would be enough, which really goes right along with what others teach about God punishing sinners for all of eternity, keeping them alive because His wrath is never appeased. This is scratching where it doesn't itch. God doesn't punish sin arbitrarily, as if it needed punishment for the sake of being punished. Sin results in death. That *is* the punishment.My Bible teaches that God's wrath will be appeased. The Bible never says that. Neither does the Spirit of Prophecy. As I pointed out, the Spirit of Prophecy only speaks of appeasing God's wrath in a negative sense, as in a delusion of Satan. Look through her writings and you'll see this. As for the Bible, it doesn't speak of appeasing God's wrath at all.Each will receive their reward/punishment according to their own works, the sin problem will be dealt with and sin and the wicked will be destroyed, and sin will never arise again. Sure. Sin will result in death, just as God said. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with appeasing God's wrath, which has to do with propitiation. God's wrath against sin will never be propitiated.Furthermore, God will forget all our sins. If God's wrath is never appeased, He could never forget our sins. Two points. First of all, when it speaks of God's not remembering our sins, this is not in the sense of a loss of memory. It means that He will not bring them up. Once everyone has made a decision for our against Jesus Christ, there would be no more purpose for God to remember sin. Those who have chosen Christ have been forgiven. Those who refuse Christ will die, for "they that hate me love death."Yes, God's wrath will be appeased; No, God will never be at peace with sin.which in no wise means that God no longer hates sin. The idea I was sharing is not original to me. I borrowed the idea form George Fifield, a contemporary of Ellen White, who said, Quote:
But this idea of atonement, or reconciliation, separates entirely between the Father and the Son, making the Father so stern and hard that He demands his full “pound of flesh,” so to speak, and the Son so kind, so good, that He gives it out of His own heart that we may be set free. Thus instead of Christ revealing the Father, the two are opposite—entirely separated.
But no, “He that hath seen the Son hath seen the Father.” If you want to know how God feels towards sin, notice how Christ hated sin. If you want to know how God feels toward the sinner, notice how Christ loved the sinner.
God’s wrath burns eternally against sin, and never will be appeased; but it will consume the sinner in the end.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73442
05/11/06 01:34 PM
05/11/06 01:34 PM
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Quote:
I see that appease means: "pacify: cause to be more favorably inclined; gain the good will of" also "propitiate: make peace with." When one speaks of appeasing the wrath of God, it is this last one that particularly applies, don't you agree?
No, I don't agree with the foreign meaning you assign to the word. To make peace with does not mean that you are in favor of the original problem, whether it be sin or hunger or whatever. When you eat a meal, you are made at peace. You are at peace with your hunger. Why? Because you now love being starved? Or is it because the problem was dealt with and is a problem no more?! Isn't it because your hunger problem has been dealt with, and is no longer a problem?
According to your words, it would mean that you are now in favor of being starved; but that does not make any sense at all!
You mentioned that a synonym of "appease" is "propitiate". That is correct. But the meaning you give it is not correct. Propitiate does not mean "peaceful alliance", and neither does "appease". 1 John 4:10 tells us that God gave us His Son Christ Jesus to be the propitiation of sin. Since the word propitiate is used in this verse, a word that you are objecting to, are you suggesting to us that this verse is therefore saying that Christ caused the Father to come into a peaceful alliance with sin and to no longer hate sin?
You cannot assign a foreign meaning to a word, or twist what was said out of context, and then argue that this is what the person is saying, and then tell that person he or she is wrong for saying it.
Quote:
Does God make peace with sin? I don't think so. Do you?
Not in the sense in which you are trying to press it into. You are saying that "appeasement" is a "peaceful alliance", but that is not at all what the word means. But the sin problem will be dealt with, finally and completely, and it will not be a problem any more because sin will be stamped out forever and never arise again. Don't you agree?
Or are you honestly trying to claim that the original poster was claiming that God will make a peaceful alliance with sin and change His mind such that He is in favor of sin?
Come on now. Let's not build up straw men to knock down. The original poster never suggested any such thing as you are accusing! Must we try to make others say something they never said, just so we have something to argue about? Talk about scratching where it doesn't itch!
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73443
05/11/06 02:50 PM
05/11/06 02:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote: I see that appease means: "pacify: cause to be more favorably inclined; gain the good will of" also "propitiate: make peace with." When one speaks of appeasing the wrath of God, it is this last one that particularly applies, don't you agree? No, I don't agree with the foreign meaning you assign to the word. I didn't make up the meanings I posted. I looked them up. They weren't mine. To make peace with does not mean that you are in favor of the original problem, whether it be sin or hunger or whatever. When you eat a meal, you are made at peace. You are at peace with your hunger. Why? Because you now love being starved? Or is it because the problem was dealt with and is a problem no more?! Isn't it because your hunger problem has been dealt with, and is no longer a problem? According to your words, it would mean that you are now in favor of being starved; but that does not make any sense at all! Why are you equating hunger with the sin problem? Hunger is a transitory condition. The sin problem is not. I don't think the analogy you are suggesting fits very well.You mentioned that a synonym of "appease" is "propitiate". That is correct. But the meaning you give it is not correct. Propitiate does not mean "peaceful alliance", and neither does "appease". 1 John 4:10 tells us that God gave us His Son Christ Jesus to be the propitiation of sin. Since the word propitiate is used in this verse, a word that you are objecting to, are you suggesting to us that this verse is therefore saying that Christ caused the Father to come into a peaceful alliance with sin and to no longer hate sin? That's not the problem. The problem is that we are not at peace with God. God gave His Son for us to bring us back to Him.Quote:
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (Col. 1:19-23)
Through the cross we are reconciled to God. The propitiation was for us, not for God. Quoting from E. J. Waggoner:
Quote:
A Propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.
It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased. (Waggoner on Romans)
Also, to be clear, what I am objecting to is the idea that God's wrath is appeased.
You cannot assign a foreign meaning to a word, or twist what was said out of context, and then argue that this is what the person is saying, and then tell that person he or she is wrong for saying it.
This is not at all what I'm doing. Here's what I'm objecting to:
Quote:
Jesus has "no pleasure" in the death of the wicked, but when justice is finally served He will be satisfied, His wrath will be appeased, and He will rejoice that sin and death are eliminated with unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. That's how the inspired authors describe it.
Here the poster claimed that God's wrath will be appeased, and this is what inspired writers say. But nowhere does the Bible speak of God's wrath being appeased, and when the Spirit of Prophecy speaks of it, she uses the phrase only in a negative sense, as in a delusion of Satan. This has nothing to do with me ascribing meanings to words. Regardless of the meaning of "appeaseed" what I am objecting to would still be true. Correct?
Quote:
Does God make peace with sin? I don't think so. Do you?
Not in the sense in which you are trying to press it into. You are saying that "appeasement" is a "peaceful alliance", but that is not at all what the word means.
The first definintion I quoted said to appease was to pacify. To pacify means to make peace, coming from the Latin pax, which means "peace." Webster's gives "appease" and "propitiate" as synonymns to "pacify," which again verifies that the meaning of "appease" involves making peace.
But the sin problem will be dealt with, finally and completely, and it will not be a problem any more because sin will be stamped out forever and never arise again. Don't you agree?
Or are you honestly trying to claim that the original poster was claiming that God will make a peaceful alliance with sin and change His mind such that He is in favor of sin?
To say that God's wrath is appeased means that God was angry, and something happened so that He is no longer angry. I think the original poster had in mind that God was angry, but vented His anger against the wicked by punishing them with excruciating pain in molten lava, or something equivalent, until His wrath was appeased, "satifying His thirst for vengeance" is the way he puts it.
I disagree with the idea that God was angry at sinners to start with. God's anger is directed at sin, not sinners, and that anger will never cease. This was my point. I was not arguing that the original poster was thinking that God will come to be at peace with sin, but that he misunderstood what God's wrath was about. I believe Fifield had the correct understanding: "God’s wrath burns eternally against sin, and never will be appeased; but it will consume the sinner in the end."
Come on now. Let's not build up straw men to knock down. The original poster never suggested any such thing as you are accusing! Must we try to make others say something they never said, just so we have something to argue about? Talk about scratching where it doesn't itch!
You've misunderstood my point. I think I've been clear. I'm not attempting to do what you are saying. If you think I've been unclear, perhaps you could quote something I've written.
To summarize, my original point is that is not correct to say that God's wrath is appeased in the destruction of the wicked. This idea is not to be found in Scripture at all, and when the Spirit of Prophecy speaks of appeasing God's wrath, it's always in a negative sense, as in a delusion of Satan.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73444
05/11/06 04:27 PM
05/11/06 04:27 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, Sister White is the one who said God's wrath will be appeased when the wicked are punished and destroyed in the lake of fire.
SR 388
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {SR 388.1}
1SG 193
He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}
EW 51
The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}
Deuteronomy
32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.
Psalm
149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
149:6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Nahum
1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73445
05/11/06 05:33 PM
05/11/06 05:33 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, Sister White is the one who said God's wrath will be appeased when the wicked are punished and destroyed in the lake of fire. SR 388 The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {SR 388.1} 1SG 193 He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1} EW 51 The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2} You're right! Mea culpa. I did my search on "God appease wrath" and the results were as I stated. I should have tried "God appeased wrath" as well.Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people. Psalm 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 149:6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people; 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD. Nahum 1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies. 2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This still leaves the question as to what the wrath of God means. I understand the wrath of God to mean that God gives one up to suffer the results of the choices made. For example:Quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
We see here that God's anger is expressed by His forsaking and hiding His face from those He is "angry" at. When He forsakes or hides His face, bad things happen. Ellen White talks about this in the first chapter of the Great Controversy which discusses the destruction of Jerusalem.
Quote:
The hour of hope and pardon was fast passing; the cup of God's long-deferred wrath was almost full. The cloud that had been gathering through ages of apostasy and rebellion, now black with woe, was about to burst upon a guilty people;...Looking down the ages, He saw the covenant people scattered in every land, "like wrecks on a desert shore." In the temporal retribution about to fall upon her children, He saw but the first draft from that cup of wrath which at the final judgment she must drain to its dregs. Divine pity, yearning love, found utterance in the mournful words: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" O that thou, a nation favored above every other, hadst known the time of thy visitation, and the things that belong unto thy peace! I have stayed the angel of justice, I have called thee to repentance, but in vain. It is not merely servants, delegates, and prophets, whom thou hast refused and rejected, but the Holy One of Israel, thy Redeemer. If thou art destroyed, thou alone art responsible. "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life." Matthew 23:37; John 5:40....Because of her sins, wrath had been denounced against Jerusalem, and her stubborn unbelief rendered her doom certain....
How does explain the meaning of God's wrath?
Quote:
The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (emphasis mine)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73446
05/11/06 05:38 PM
05/11/06 05:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Note to Denborg. MM demonstrated that I was incorrect in stating the EGW did not speak of appeasing God's wrath, except in a negative sense. He did a better search than I did. So please disregard the assertions in my posts to you related to this point.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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