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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73457
05/14/06 02:39 AM
05/14/06 02:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's something I wrote about vengeance Mark. Perhaps this will help by way of understanding what John and I have in mind. (I'm pretty sure John will agree with what I've written here. If not, I invite him to speak up.)
The rest of the text shows the vengeance of God, how it is that God repays: 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Please note that God is not asking us to do anything other than what He does. Christ overcame evil with good. He turned the other cheek, walked the second mile. God is simply asking us to be like Him. A distorted understanding of this text would be "I'd really like to bash this guy, but I'm supposed to leave vengeance with God, so I'll control myself and let God bash him." Regarding understanding God's justice as violence, it's certainly true that this would be a bad characterization of it. God's justice is setting things right: Quote:
18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him. (Isa. 30:18)
God longs to be gracious and merciful to us because He is a God of justice. Justice is setting things right, and the way God does this is through grace and mercy.
Quote:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘ Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother. (Zech. 7:9)
God's justice is manifest by mercy and compassion, whether by God Himself or by us.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73458
05/14/06 12:54 PM
05/14/06 12:54 PM
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OP
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Jakarta, Indonesia
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John B wrote:
Here is some more scripture James, some of the clearest scripture on the fact that sin causes death is found in Romans 7, but by no means the only place.
Unquote.
Tom E. wrote:
Quote:
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But, are our death connected to God taking out our life or not?
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James, if we wish to understand God's character, we should study the life and character of Jesus Christ. When Jesus was urged to take life, how did He respond?
Quote:
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54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:54-56)
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God is not the author of death. Death is intrinsic to sin. You can't have sin without death.
Unquote.
If sin that causes death, does it means that it is sin that takes the life out of our bodies and we become death bodies or corpses?
How life is created in Adam?
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.” – Genesis 2:7
So, the breath of life is “the Source of our life”, without it we are back into dust of the ground. And we knew that “the breath of life” is the Spirit of God.
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”
Life is the body + the Spirit of God that gives life, death is the body without the spirit of God.
What happen with a death man? “And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” – Ecclesiastes 12:7.
It’s very clear to me, that it is not sin that kills us; sin causes death but it is not sin that takes away the life of our bodies. It is God himself that takes the life from our bodies at the time he thinks is right.
God is the life giver and no one might take it away from us except God himself.
He has a good reason to “kill” us, our sins.
In His love
James S
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73459
05/14/06 02:38 PM
05/14/06 02:38 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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JS - It’s very clear to me, that it is not sin that kills us; sin causes death but it is not sin that takes away the life of our bodies. It is God himself that takes the life from our bodies at the time he thinks is right.
James, I believe it is more accurate to say Jesus withdraws the breath of life because we refuse to rely on Him to cease sinning – the result is we die. Sinning, in and of itself, does not cause us to die the second death. Jesus must resurrect the wicked in order to punish and destroy them. For some reason this makes sense to God. It is true, however, that sinful choices can lead to us dying the first death, though it is not necessarily inevitable.
For example, choosing to ingest poison usually results in the first death, that is, if Jesus decides not to overrule the normal effects of poison, which, again, leads me to believe the reason we die the first death is because Jesus chooses not to override the natural course of things, the process of dying due to the fact we are forbidden to eat of the tree of life and because there are so many things that cause death living in a world full of sin (war, crime, disease, accidents, etc).
People who object to these views of death and dying and punishment have a hard time explaining why Jesus thinks it’s necessary to resurrect the wicked.
1. Why resurrect the wicked if they’re already dead?
2. If death is wages of sin why not leave them dead?
3. If Jesus does not punish the wicked according to their sinfulness with literal fire and brimstone, as some have suggested, why not just leave them dead?
4. What purpose does it serve to resurrect them if, according to some people, all they do is suffer in the presence of God’s glory?
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73460
05/14/06 02:48 PM
05/14/06 02:48 PM
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SDA
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Tom, another way of looking at Romans 12:19-21 is in light of the following passage:
Revelation
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.
The angel in verse 18 represents the prayers of the saints when probation closes. They are pleading with Jesus to destroy the wicked. They are lost beyond hope and the righteous pray to Jesus to end their lives. It does not occur to them to assist Jesus in destroying them. They understand that Jesus is the only one who has the right to exact vengeance on the wicked. In response to this vengeance the holy angels declare:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73461
05/14/06 06:59 PM
05/14/06 06:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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James, when you speak of death, it would be good if you would clarify which death you mean, the first or the second. When the Scripture speaks of sin resulting in death, the primary meaning is the second death. You will notice that Christ refers to the first death as "sleep". Because of sin, the law of entropy came into effect. This causes the breakdown of all systems, including our own bodies. Not just human beings die, but everything runs down, without exception, even mighty stars. This is not something which God caused to happen, but was the result of an aberant element being added into things. As Christ said, "an enemy has done this." The Spirit of Prophecy has an elegant explanation of this idea: Quote:
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (2SM 288)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73462
05/14/06 07:08 PM
05/14/06 07:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
God is the life giver and no one might take it away from us except God himself.
He has a good reason to “kill” us, our sins.
This is a fundamental issue to consider, and has wide sweeping implications as to how we view God's character. If we view death as happening because of actions on God's part, then He is responsible for all death. When our loved one's die, and we ask why, the response is because God thought it best. We are led to view God as one who plans for the incidents in our life which most cause us pain.
But when one looks at the Gospels, this is not the picture we see when we look at Jesus Christ. How many times did Jesus say that God was responsible for any bad thing, including the sickness He was healing someone of, or some death which befell someone? Never. Christ always presented His work as one of fighting the enemy. He viewed Satan as the author of sin, sickness and death, *not* His Father. We should view things the same way Christ did.
Another problem with viewing God as causing death is that it leads us to view Him with fear. If we don't do what He says, He will kill us. This can never lead to the type of relationship Christ had with His Father.
Another problem is that it puts the Father at cross purposes with His Son. We do not see Christ taking anyone's life away. Again and again Christ said He came not to destroy, or to condemn, or to judge, but to save lives.
This is the work of God. To save. Destruction comes from sin, and God seeks to save us from our sin, that we not be destroyed by it. It's like a deadly virus which must be removed from our system. *It* is what we must fear, not God. The fear of God (in the sense of being afraid, not of respect) leads to the religion of the Phrarisees, who worshipped God with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him, and when He came to dwell amongst them, they wanting nothing more than to kill Him.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73463
05/14/06 07:21 PM
05/14/06 07:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, Jesus is not schitzophrenic! He has only one way of acting, which is like He acted while here amongst us. *Everything* that we can know about God was demonstrated by Him while He lived amongst us. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If you wish to give some interpretation to Rev. 14, or any other passage, it must be rejected if you cannot produce an example from the life of Christ was corroborates the suggested interpretation. What the passage in Romans 12 shows is that God's vengeance is accomplished not by eye for eye or tooth for tooth, but by turning the other cheek and walking the second mile. The Spirit of Prophecy speaks of Rev. 14 like this: Quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}
She also repeats these principles in the Great Controversy:
Quote:
The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. (GC 36)
From this we see that the same principles at work in the destruction of Jerusalem will be at work during the time of trouble. What were these principles?
Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 36, 37)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73464
05/14/06 11:39 PM
05/14/06 11:39 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
John B wrote:
Here is some more scripture James, some of the clearest scripture on the fact that sin causes death is found in Romans 7, but by no means the only place.
Quote:
James S wrote:
It’s very clear to me, that it is not sin that kills us; sin causes death but it is not sin that takes away the life of our bodies. It is God himself that takes the life from our bodies at the time he thinks is right.
James S., Christ never came to redeem us from the death of this body, but he came to redeem us from the one that I wrote about.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73465
05/15/06 12:15 AM
05/15/06 12:15 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Yes, but if we think we see, and refuse to acknowledge our blindness, our sin remains.
This is the tough one Tom. This is why the Lord of Glory was killed.
Quote:
I've always liked what you've said about our righteousness vs. God's righteousness. In fact, I think we've discussed this at some length, including discussing this site, sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml, which talks about the same concept in terms of "justice" (which is the same word in the Greek as "righteousness").
You never told me about that article. I went to see it and I like his intro and Part 1 very much; it’s so true. I didn’t get to read the rest yet. I too appreciate your posts and the amount of evidence you put up.
Quote:
I think explaining things in terms of a paradigm shift is a good place to start.
Paradigm shift is ok; but I think most people relate to that concept as an intellectual/theological thing, which falls short of the real which is nothing less than “new birth”. This is heart work. (I know you know that)
Quote:
The idea of exchanging our righteousness for God's is a difficult concept to grasp. What comes to most people's minds is the idea of work-righteousness, that we need to stop trying to work our way to heaven, and accept the righteousness of Christ by faith. Of course, this is involved, but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
That is the crunch of it for many, and the problem is not with what you said but what people understand that to mean. A theological belief, something to assent to, but how to pass from our righteousness to his righteousness is the strange part.
Quote:
Our righteousness encompasses not just our efforts to gain God's favor, but our entire frame of reference; everything we think, the way we perceive things, all this must be exchanged for God's righteousness, which also encompasses not just the works of righteousness which Christ performed in God's name, but God's way of thinking, His way of perceiving things, His entire frame of reference.
I like that.
Our righteousness encompasses our entire frame of reference; everything we think, the way we perceive things, the way we value things, all this must be exchanged for God's righteousness, which is God's way of thinking, His way of perceiving things, His entire frame of reference.
What we do is simply the result of our way of thinking, and what he does is but the result of his way of thinking. The contrast of the two is seen in the difference between the life of Christ and ours.
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Re: Why humanity need redemption?
#73466
05/15/06 01:31 AM
05/15/06 01:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
What we do is simply the result of our way of thinking, and what he does is but the result of his way of thinking. The contrast of the two is seen in the difference between the life of Christ and ours.
Very nice to summarize the thought! As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
I didn't know we hadn't discussed the sharktacos site. That's where I got my ideas regarding Isa. 30:18 and Zech 7:9. His site, especially the introduction, really helped me a lot. The idea that God's justice is not retribution but setting things right is made very clear. Not "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth" but "turn the other cheeck" and "walk the second mile." We see God's justice, His "vengeance," fully revealed in the cross (and throught Jesus' entire life).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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