James, what you're saying here doesn't make logical sense. If transgression only started existing after the law was given, how could it have been given *because* of transgressions? The transgressions wouldn't have existed!

Think of sin as selfishness, and think of the awful things sinfulness results in: misery, pain, death, murders, etc. Whether or not the law was formally given, all of these things would exist, wouldn't they?

The law was given as a diagnostic tool, so we could recognize our lack of righteousness and need for Christ.

Sin can only cause death, as life comes only from God, law or no law. The law helps us recognize what sin is, and what rightouesness is, but it neither creates rightouesness, nor sin, nor the fruit of these things, which is life in the one case and death in the other.

James what would the advantage be for Christians if the Ten Commandments were abolished? (Which you've not proven to be the case). I can't see any.

Redfog

Redfog

Can you see the difference between "abolished" and "no longer the focus of religious observation"? What is argued is that the TenC are not THE focal point of the christian religion, but I guess it is easier to attack an abolishment of them...

/Thomas

I vote for the focal point of Christianity being Christ. That has a nice ring to it.

I agree, and that seems also to be the point of all New Testament teaching on the law, like in Romans or Galatians...

/Thomas

Quote.
Sin can only cause death, as life comes only from God, law or no law. The law helps us recognize what sin is, and what rightouesness is, but it neither creates rightouesness, nor sin, nor the fruit of these things, which is life in the one case and death in the other.
Unquote.

I disagree with your disagreement Tom even I agree that “The law was given as a diagnostic tool, so we could recognize our lack of righteousness and need for Christ”, but it was given with the command to keep it in exchange for life.

God clearly say in Leviticus 18:4-5 that those who kept his commandment would earn life as a reward, which means no Savior is needed.

Christ repeats this message in Matthew 19:16-19 and John 12:50.
Paul said the same thing in Romans 7:10; 10:5.

God would be a LIAR if no man can be justified to life because of his perfect righteousness in obeying the law. And Christ did it, he earn life as a reward of his perfect righteousness obtained to a sinless perfect obedience to the law throughout his whole life.

The law must condemn men for their inability to keep it perfectly and fulfill it demands and on the other hand it is to justify Christ righteousness.

Therefore it was added (given) because of our transgression, where Adam has robbed our life and through the law men might get it back by their obedience, which failed for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I think Romans 3:20 indicates it, that no man would be declared righteous in God sight by observing the law (the reason because they fall short of God glory thus could not fulfill the demands of the law), the effect of this failure is, the law reveal our failures (sin) and points out to Christ, which God had sent to redeem men.

In His love

James S.

Well Thomas the title of this thread is abolishment, not not be the focal point. I agree the Ten Commandments should not be the focal point of religion however they are still valid and binding to a Christian. They were never to be replaced nor be made to less effect by the law of love. The Ten Commandments were never to be a burden for man. They were Gods way of telling us how to love our fellow man and the Creator Himself.

In them we find Gods love for all humans. They compliment John 15:12, that says were are to love our fellow humans.

Redfog

James, how many people do you think kept the law perfectly before Christ came? Do you think noone before Christ will be saved?

James, I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying. What is it you disagreed with in what I said?

I wrote, "Sin can only cause death, as life comes only from God, law or no law. The law helps us recognize what sin is, and what rightouesness is, but it neither creates rightouesness, nor sin, nor the fruit of these things, which is life in the one case and death in the other."

Which part of this do you disagree with?

Redfog

The title of the thread may be abolishment, but if you read my posts and maybe those of the others aswell I think you will find that what I(we?) have been talking about has really been about what place to give to the TenC rather than to throw them on a dump.

You are right that the TenC where never to be a burden, but we have such an easy time to lay burdens on ourselves and others. If a person sets his/her mind to keep the TenC the person will inevietably lay a burden on him/herself possibly leading to burnout and in a worstcase scenario bitterness towards God. If a person otoh sets his/her mind to walk with the Spirit, Jesus will bear the burden and the person will end up living a much more lawabiding life than had he pursued lawkeeping. If you dont believe this, ask yourself this, will the Holy Spirit lead anyone into lawlessness=sin?

Gods love for all humans, He layed down His divinity to become a human and walk with us, then He layed down His life to reconcile us to Himself. The text says:
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Twise God has shown this love for us, greater than this for we where His enemies when He surrendered Himself for us.

Rom 5:6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For it is rare for anyone to die for a righteous person, though somebody might be brave enough to die for a good person.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his love for us by the fact that Christ died for us while we were still sinners.
Rom 5:9 Now that we have been justified by his blood, how much more will we be saved from wrath through him!
Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life!
Rom 5:11 Not only that, but we also continue to boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.

/Thomas

I disagree with you Tom of what you said that the law creates neither righteousness nor sin, nor the fruit of these things, which is life in the one case and death in the other.

Clearly God said that those who keep his law shall live: Do it and live. And we have Christ as the proof; he was righteous and the law justifies him and rewarded him with life, he rose from the grave even he was dead.

And none kept the law perfectly before the cross and even after the cross, except Jesus, therefore, we are always under grace.

In His love

James S