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NIV vs KJV
#74175
05/08/06 07:41 PM
05/08/06 07:41 PM
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OP
Regular Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 61
Ga
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I am not sure which section to post this in so feel free to move it to wherever it needs to be. I did not see this topic anywhere but I wondered if anyone has a problem with using other versions of the Bible ....other than the King James version. I see that the NIV is being used a lot in the church sermons and in the quarterly. I have done quite a bit of comparing and find this to be a problem for myself. There are a lot of differences in the meaning of the texts in the NIV and others. In giving Bible studies I have found that the answers to the questions are not accurate when using the NIV at times. I wonder why we are using this version.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74176
05/08/06 08:16 PM
05/08/06 08:16 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 118
Eastern WV
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Take a look at: http://tinyurl.com/lotxgI'm of the opinion that the comments on the versions will never cease and that's OK so long as participants allow others to have a different opinion. Personally, I can read either the KJV or NIV; however,I have often found that when there is an alternate translation as given by the SDA Commentary that it often follows the NIV translation.I believe we can benefit by comparing and using the Commentary.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74177
05/09/06 05:09 PM
05/09/06 05:09 PM
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I think the NIV is ok if you want to clarify something in the KJV.....but I have trouble undersanding the NIV! LOL I, personally, use the NKJV. I find the KJV difficult to understand at times, but the NIV and I don't get along at all! I think the NIV is supposed to be closer to "plain English" which is why I probably have problems with it. Does that make sense?
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and HE will direct your paths. Proverbs 3:5,6
For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. Ecclesiastes 3:1
Stephanie
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74178
05/09/06 06:54 PM
05/09/06 06:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Why the NIV is used is easy to see: it's much easier to understand! In terms of accuracy, I would trust the KJV much more than the NIV. If they two disagree, a large percentage of the time I would suspect the KJV would be more accurate.
Personally I think it's good to use many different versions, the more the better. On line it's very easy to look up an interlinear Greek New Testatament (or Hebrew), so you can take a look at the original language and look at things as closely as you like. But for most cases, it's not so necessarily to look at things to finely. Bear in mind, many of the books in Bibles were origanally meant to be read at one hearing. There's no way the original author was concerned with some fine meaning of this or that word. The author is trying to convery meaning, and comparing different versions is a good way, IMO, to try to get at the original meaning.
Having said that, the KJV is still my favorite.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74179
05/10/06 06:28 AM
05/10/06 06:28 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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In 1930, despite opposition from the General Conference, B.J. Wilkinson published 'Our Authorized Bible Vindicated'. Wilkinson was Dean of Theology at Washington Missionary College (SDA) in Takoma Park, D.C.
This classic text reveals two distinct manuscript sources for today's Bibles, one relatively pure, from which springs the King James Version. The other is a corrupted stream and the source for Roman Catholic and most modern Bibles (e.g NIV). After reading Wilkinson's book one understands the reason for confusion in the churches. Ellen White corroborates his findings when speaking of the Waldenses - "They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution." GC 65. Perhaps this was a prophetic type for the last days.
All those interested in Bible study would benefit from reading Wilkinson's book. It is reprinted by Leaves of Autumn in Payson, Arizona. When the G.C. responded strongly against the book and its author, Wilkinson issued a companion volume to answer the unfounded charges of faulty scholarship, 'Answers to Objections to Our Authorized Bible'. He may be one of our last truly protestant scholars. Sola Scriptura.
Is God able to protect His Word? Certainly; almost 400 years as our English Bible. Does Satan seek to draw us from the pure stream of Life? Yes, but not with book bonfires of the past. Instead, subtle corruptions which confuse our study.
In my opinion the more versions, the more confusion, and this by design. I can safely recommend the King James Version. As well, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, published 1890. Available at any Christian bookstore and most public libraries. Verify that the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries are included. Avoid abridged versions of Strong's.
Serious Bible students will be blessed to own the New Englishman's Hebrew and Greek Concordances, by George V. Wigram. (Published 1843 & 1844). (Hendrickson Publishers)
The Bible is our Great Treasure House. We must mine it to the depths. "None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict" GC 593.
Tom may be correct that the original human writer was unaware of the significance or depth of the inspired words he penned. While Daniel faithfully recorded the Word of God, he 'fainted, and was sick certain days..and..was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.' Daniel 8:27. From your posts Brother Tom I am sure you recognize the Original Author as He 'Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.' 1 Timothy 6:16.
Let us remember the awesome infinite power of the Word of God. "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth...For he spake, and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast." Psalm 33:6,9. At this Word the dead are raised. By this Word the evil heart of man is recreated. Redemption is in the Word.
'The whole Bible is a manifestation of Christ'. Signs of the Times, March 26, 1906.
'If you would become better acquainted with the Saviour, study the Scriptures.' Signs of the Times, April 18, 1906.
'Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth' 2 Timothy 2:15. 'For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little' Isaiah 28:10.
Gordon
Last edited by gordonb1; 05/10/06 07:23 AM.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74180
05/10/06 10:37 AM
05/10/06 10:37 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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One reason why reading several different translations is a good idea is that our western languages are quite different from anicent greec and even more so from anicent hebrew. To give one example, one word (shalem) can either be translated "complete", "safe", "peaceful", "perfect", "whole", "full", "at peace". But it can only be translated into one of these at any one time in english while it may include several or all of these meanings in hebrew, even at the same time. To the limit oneself to just one english translation would possibly cut of 6/7 of the meaning.
As for the history of the KJV, it is said that its translators had much help from the Tyndale translation which in turn had help from Erasmus of Rotterdams translation which in turn was accepted by the See in Rome. For instance it is told that there is one passage where Erasmus had made his translation out of the manuscripts aviable. He was then approached and asked to add two additional verses that he hadnt found in the greek texts he had and therefore he refused to ad those texts. Some time later one suitable greek manuscript was suddenly "found" and Erasmus had to stay at his word. That new find is dated to that very time and was probably manufactured in some monastery suitably far away. This text by the way is part of KJVs foundation..
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74181
05/11/06 02:23 AM
05/11/06 02:23 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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NIV or KJV?
Well this is interesting, has anyone taken the time to compare the Book of Hebrews from both books?
The NIV, waters down the Sabbath so much that one would ask why we need to keep it if they did not know better.
On top of that, there are many text left out of the NIV which are in the original text. The “scholars of the NIV claim that the text was not really there in the original manuscripts. For example in the NIV, one cannot learn how to have the faith of a mustard seed, for the “scholars” deemed it un-necessary to add, claiming that it was not in the original text. But here it is for you to compare.
Matthew 17:20-21(KJV) “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 17:20-21 (NIV) “20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men.”
Footnotes:
· Matthew 17:20 Some manuscripts you. 21 But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
By not teaching how you can receive this kind of faith that Jesus talked about and said was there for us, they weaken and deprive the people of this very important passage. Why?
Compare John 3:16.
KJV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
NIV “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Notice the word “should” in the KJV and then compare that to the word “shall” in the NIV. Is this the same meaning?????
How about Revelation 14:12, this is a hallmark of Adventism what do the two teach?
KJV “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
NIV “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”
Please notice that the KJV teaches what the Saints have “patience” and what they do, they keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. What kind of Faith do the saints have? Why the same faith that Jesus had when He walked this earth some 2000 years ago. Total faith and dependence upon the Father, for every breath, every heart beat, a total faith that the Almighty God who is in charge this is what the Saints will have. Is this what the NIV teaches? NO.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74182
05/11/06 05:13 AM
05/11/06 05:13 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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David
I would like to remind you that if you are to compare translations to see which one is best, you compare each of the translations to the original and not to eachother. If you compare one translation with another translation all you can produce is your likes and dislikes. Only if you compare to the original and can say that one or the other is closer to it you will have a case which goes beyond mere opinion.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74183
05/11/06 12:52 PM
05/11/06 12:52 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Quote:
David
I would like to remind you that if you are to compare translations to see which one is best, you compare each of the translations to the original and not to eachother. If you compare one translation with another translation all you can produce is your likes and dislikes. Only if you compare to the original and can say that one or the other is closer to it you will have a case which goes beyond mere opinion.
/Thomas
Absolutely correct. But even so, all you are left with is a better understanding of what the men who wrote the originals understood. That is not necessarily what the Creator is or was thinking.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74184
05/11/06 06:53 PM
05/11/06 06:53 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
David
I would like to remind you that if you are to compare translations to see which one is best, you compare each of the translations to the original and not to eachother. If you compare one translation with another translation all you can produce is your likes and dislikes. Only if you compare to the original and can say that one or the other is closer to it you will have a case which goes beyond mere opinion.
/Thomas
Do you have original copies? If so I would like to get copies.
The problem with you statement is that most people cannot get original copies of the Bible and we are left to what is on the store shelves or that has been given to us.
The founders used the KJV the Holy Spirit used this Bible to bring the SDA church up, why use another version? There are times that you may find a better description in another version. However you need to make sure it does not change the meaning.
In the verses that I supplied I noticed that you did not comment on the changes that the NIV makes. Did you not see the changes?
Satan and the Catholic Church have tried for over 400 years to destroy the KJV. They have not been able to this, so what do they do? They have undermined the KJV by putting out secret codex’s that where found in their libraries that no one ever knew about before and said that these codex’s are older and better. Well the world fell for it and many today in the SDA church have no faith in the KJV because of the lies of the first beast of Revelation.
Stick with what God used to bring up this church and be safe.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74185
05/12/06 06:40 PM
05/12/06 06:40 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
NIV or KJV?
Well this is interesting, has anyone taken the time to compare the Book of Hebrews from both books?
The NIV, waters down the Sabbath so much that one would ask why we need to keep it if they did not know better.
Found a difference in the fourth chapter. The NIV says "They shall never enter my rest." while the KJV says "If they shall enter into my rest". A real difference. I couldnt understand the difference until I got the idea to check what Paul was quoting. Apparently he is quoting the 95th psalm which says in its last verse KJV "11Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
" The KJV in Hebrews is the only way to translate it according to the Strongs concordance. And it appears that NIV chose its translation from the original psalm. What to do with this I do not know.
Quote:
On top of that, there are many text left out of the NIV which are in the original text. The “scholars of the NIV claim that the text was not really there in the original manuscripts. For example in the NIV, one cannot learn how to have the faith of a mustard seed, for the “scholars” deemed it un-necessary to add, claiming that it was not in the original text. But here it is for you to compare.
Matthew 17:20-21(KJV) “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 17:20-21 (NIV) “20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men.”
Footnotes:
· Matthew 17:20 Some manuscripts you. 21 But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
By not teaching how you can receive this kind of faith that Jesus talked about and said was there for us, they weaken and deprive the people of this very important passage. Why?
With this quote I would add the previous verses which says:
18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Is the praying and fasting refering to gaining faith or is it refering to the casting out of demons?
Quote:
Compare John 3:16.
KJV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
NIV “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Notice the word “should” in the KJV and then compare that to the word “shall” in the NIV. Is this the same meaning?????
No, you are right. "Should" indicates a possibility while "shall" indicates a sertainity. Acording to KJV believing in God does not nessessarily mean you will not perish. What to do with that?
Quote:
How about Revelation 14:12, this is a hallmark of Adventism what do the two teach?
KJV “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
NIV “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”
Please notice that the KJV teaches what the Saints have “patience” and what they do, they keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. What kind of Faith do the saints have? Why the same faith that Jesus had when He walked this earth some 2000 years ago. Total faith and dependence upon the Father, for every breath, every heart beat, a total faith that the Almighty God who is in charge this is what the Saints will have. Is this what the NIV teaches? NO.
Peace and Grace
David
What the Concordance entry for the word translated patience in KJV says:
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
b) patiently, and steadfastly
2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance
For Synonyms see entry 5861
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 32
AV - patience 29, enduring 1, patient continuance 1,
patient waiting 1; 32
From this we see that "patient endurance" is a valid translation and that "patient waiting" is the translation most often used in the KJV for this greek word. This in my opinion means that there isnt much of a case for "one is right, the other is wrong" in this particular case.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74186
05/14/06 02:44 AM
05/14/06 02:44 AM
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I agree with David about the KJV as it was done by men under the order of King James without hardly any type of religious bias.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74187
05/14/06 05:38 AM
05/14/06 05:38 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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NIV:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
KJV:
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Notice that the NIV has the S in uppercase and singular usage for the word day, meaning the 7thday. The KJV uses lowercase S and has plural form of day "days". This is consistent with the Bible considering that the feasts fell on days. The NIV uses this passage to appear that the 7th day Sabbath was done away with. To me thats not correct.
Also keep in mind that in Spanish there is a Bible translation known as Reina Valera which is a Protestant Bible made in 1602. The reformation was underway in many different areas, you had Sabbath keepers in the British Isles, and throughout Europe prior to this movement. Something to keep in mind.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74188
05/14/06 08:56 AM
05/14/06 08:56 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Daryl
Are you honestly believing that a bible translation made just after the reformation but in the buildup for the 30 year war (at least in rethoric fought over the rigth to choose to be catholic or protestant) was "without hardly any type of religious bias"? In an England which had yet to decide wether to be protestant or to be catholic with the puritans emigrating to America and the catholics trying to blow up both king and parliment in the Guy Fawkes conspiration, I dont think one could talk about a lack of religious bias.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74189
05/14/06 09:13 AM
05/14/06 09:13 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
NIV:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
KJV:
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Greek for 4521
Pronunciation Guide
sabbaton {sab'-bat-on}
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 68
AV - sabbath day 37, sabbath 22, week 9; 68
Among other uses refered to in the concordance for this same word:
Mat 12:1-2,5,8
Mat 24:20
Mat 28:1
Mar 1:21
Mar 2:23-24,27-28
Mar 3:2,4
And so on..
Mat 12:8 For 1063 the Son 5207 of man 444 is 2076 Lord 2962 even 2532 of the sabbath day 4521.
Col 2:16 Let 2919 0 no 3361 man 5100 therefore 3767 judge 2919 you 5209 in 1722 meat 1035, or 2228 in 1722 drink 4213, or 2228 in 1722 respect 3313 of an holyday 1859, or 2228 of the new moon 3561, or 2228 of the sabbath 4521 [days]:
Quote:
Notice that the NIV has the S in uppercase and singular usage for the word day, meaning the 7thday. The KJV uses lowercase S and has plural form of day "days". This is consistent with the Bible considering that the feasts fell on days. The NIV uses this passage to appear that the 7th day Sabbath was done away with. To me thats not correct.
Also keep in mind that in Spanish there is a Bible translation known as Reina Valera which is a Protestant Bible made in 1602. The reformation was underway in many different areas, you had Sabbath keepers in the British Isles, and throughout Europe prior to this movement. Something to keep in mind.
God Bless,
Will
Since it is the same word that is used in colossians 2:16 as is used in Matthew 12:8, I think the NIV translation is preferable. Do you disagree?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74190
05/14/06 06:45 PM
05/14/06 06:45 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I dont believe the NIV makes the matter clear, but serves to illustrate to those who are not aware of the difference between the Sabbath Day, and sabbath days as being one and the same and ultimately as being a shadow of things to come, and as being done away with.
Verse 17 follows up and states that these were a shadow of things to come, and these were types, and shadows such as meat and drink offerings, and allt he different feasts. These feasts were called "sabbath days", and these feasts were a shadow of things to come. The KJV translators translated this even by adding the italicized "days" to it. Whereas the NIV includes it as Sabbath Day when the original manuscripts do not state "Sabbath Day", the word Day was added, just like days was added, and the addition of the word "days" is accurate, not "Day". Do feast days come to mind when you see Sabbath Day rendered in the NIV?
God Bless,
Will
Last edited by Will; 05/14/06 06:47 PM.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74191
05/14/06 07:52 PM
05/14/06 07:52 PM
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Just a little story about translations. I knew a lady who was giving Bible studies to a Catholic couple who insisted on using their Bible. She ended up proving to them that the Sabbath was the 7th day using the Catholic Bible. I found that interesting.
Redfog
If at first you don't succeed.....destroy all evidence you ever tried.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74192
05/14/06 09:53 PM
05/14/06 09:53 PM
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Will,
You are either missing or ignoring the point. Using the strongs concordances that build upon the KJV has made it clear that the sabbath mentioned in colossians is the same as the one Jesus declared He was lord over. Now, do we choose to say that this word does not refer to the seventh day sabbath, well, it will be easier to talk about the verses in colossians but what day is then Jesus lord over?
If we instead choose to say that this word, "sabbaton", is the seventh day sabbath, then it is clear that Jesus is lord over it but we will no longer be able to judge others over it while keeping integrity. (And there are other scriptural reasons why we shouldnt go around passing judgement upon others anyway so this should really not be any big deal..)
There are differences between the KJV and the NIV, but before one or the other can be thrown out it must be conclusively shown that the differences are not mere variants of valid translation but that someone has been making unfounded changes, added or deleted information that cannot be found in the greek text. Also, I would think that the proper way to do things is to make theology dependant upon the bible text and not the bible text depending upon theology.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74193
05/14/06 10:24 PM
05/14/06 10:24 PM
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I missed your point Thomas. Sorry about that. Yes you are right theology should be based on the Bible, I dont see your point here either, but agree that thats how is is.
Thanks,
Will
Last edited by Will; 05/14/06 10:27 PM.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74194
05/15/06 06:59 AM
05/15/06 06:59 AM
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To use the example text in colossians, many SDAs like to judge non-sabbatarians for not keeping the sabbath and therefore do not like a text that tells us not to. The theology "sunday keepers/worshipers should be judged" determines the response given to the bible text saying "do not judge anyone over .. .. sabbath days." (The responce in this particular case "there is an evil conspiracy to undermine bible truth by translating the word as...)
The other way around is to read the text "do not judge anyone over .. .. sabbath days" and come to the conclusion that the proper way to deal with those who do not keep sabbath cannot include sitting in judgement over them.
Or is there some other reason why there would be a problem that the sabbath is in the list Paul makes in colossians 2:16? Is the reason still there if you thoughtfully consider what the text says and not how it is used/misused?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74195
05/16/06 06:11 AM
05/16/06 06:11 AM
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I am not aware of SDA's judging non-sabbatarians. In fact the SDA church I attend no one badmouths Sunday keeping Christians. Its actually the other way around from my own experience as I was told once "Are you stuck on your denomination" after I refused to go to a charismatic church where they believe that speaking in tongues is a subsequent gift of salvation, good people, and in fact it was my best friend who made the comment, but I digress. Even when presented with the truth of the Sabbath, they resort to Colossians and say it was nailed to the cross vs 2:14. Now there are texts which I have read about that either bring down or make Jesus Christ to be very ambiguous . What I mean is that He is not referred to by name, but instead of the One, some interesting comparisons between NIV, NKJV, and other modern translations, even one of my favorites the NASB was dragged through the mud, but thats Ok. I think its good to have a variety of translations for study. YOu may want to take a look here for a decent overview and comparison of different Bible versions. God Bless, Will
Last edited by Will; 05/16/06 06:15 AM.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74196
05/16/06 06:58 PM
05/16/06 06:58 PM
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SDA
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There are many problems are with translations and we can only touch on a few of these. One problem is that very often times can be translated in different ways (as pointed out above) or have different shades of meaning. For example, today how would you translate the word "mouse" or "Burry the hatchet". Does the mouse mean the animal or what I'm clicking on with the computer. Do you translate "Burry the hatchet" word for word, or do you look for a phrase the reader would understand that has the same consept?
There is the issue that in all the different originals there are no speaces nor capatalizations and in the earlier ones no vowls, or dubbed letters where we would double. When you see pl does it mean: apple, pal, plea. Usually they can figure out by the context bout sometimes there are places where they are unsure.
There are a number of words that appear in the Bible that the translaters don't know what the word means and thus they have to guess and there are portions where the translater does not know how to translate as they are not sure what the text is saying, or as in the case of the word "inn" in Luke 2:7 they have a litteral meaning of the word (guest chamber) but what not sure what it meant so they guessed that it was another word for inn. (Today it is known that the Kataluma, or guest chanber, was a room in a family home for family members visiting from out of town.) Also, there is not one original text, but the originals come from three different textual families, and while they are nearly word for world in the books Isaiah through Malichi (in our order of texts) there are still minor differences in these books, and some major variations in the books outside of these. It turns out that Jesus quoted the Old Testament a lot more than we thought he did because our versions and translations are from a different textual family.
Then there are problems that will make us modern Christian readers mad, different texts that would be very sexual in translation, that the translators tone down, or ideas that actually had a point in it's context, but since we have forgotten how to read the Bible in context the individual key text would send us into a fizzy fit, or be foundation for several cults to build their wird ideas on, so translators try to maintain a ballance between what the text actually says and what you and I want the text to say so that we don't get all bent out of shape.
One of the advantages of the NIV over the the KJV are writing to the modern speach usage, and that the NIV translators lived at a time where more copies of ancient texts have been found so they had a better understanding of the syntatics of more words and had better understandings of shades of meanings and thus they have less guessing than the KJV translators had to do.
One of the advangeges of the KJV over the NIV is that it was translated prior to the late 1800s, therefore before the modern evanglical movement, fundamentalism, and dispensationalism had not yet developed and thus these did not color the translators perpectives. (of course the translators of the KJV had their own prejudices that we have to suffer with.)
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74197
05/17/06 11:28 AM
05/17/06 11:28 AM
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To find SDA's who judge non-sabbatarians, go to any internet forum you may choose where SDA's and non-sabbatarians interact and just follow the flow of discussion. Within at most a couple of days youll have your judging. But its good to know that this is not as widespread as the internet community makes it look.
The author of the page you posted would greately improve his cause if he practiced some humbleness. Trashing what he doesnt like will mostly draw the approval of those who already think alike. Some of the points made in the FAQ where interesting and maybe would make a very good case for those who stay there reading long enough to find it.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74198
05/17/06 01:03 PM
05/17/06 01:03 PM
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You are definitely right Thomas about both situations you pointed out. Online communitues are onlay a small fraction of what represents the real world, its good for interactivity, but sterile in the sense that you cannot pickup on peoples tones, and see them face to face. Its not as widespread at all.
I should have mentioned something about the author's "sensationalistic" writing style. I originally went their to read up on the reformed Jesuit priest Alberto Rivera (not sure about the last name spelled correctly), and read up on his life and experiences.
I hope you were able to sift through some of the topics and read on the translations abit. Interesting stuff thats for sure.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74199
05/22/06 09:53 PM
05/22/06 09:53 PM
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A KJV 1611 sample. Some of these words elude me.. Quote:
Joh 3:16 For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
Quote:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in Baptisme, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you being dead in your sinnes, and the vncircumcision of your flesh, hath hee quickened together with him, hauing forgiuen you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, that was against vs, which was contrary to vs, and tooke it out of the way, nayling it to his Crosse:
Col 2:15 And hauing spoyled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing ouer them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore iudge you in meat, or in drinke, or in respect of an Holy day, or of the New moone, or of the Sabbath dayes:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
Quote:
Luk 2:6 And so it was, that while they were there, the dayes were accomplished that she should be deliuered.
Luk 2:7 And she brought foorth her first borne sonne, and wrapped him in swadling clothes, and laid him in a manger, because there was no roome for them in the Inne.
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same countrey shepheards abiding in ye field, keeping watch ouer their flocke by night.
Luk 2:9 And loe, the Angel of the Lord came vpon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them, and they were sore afraid.
Quote:
Psa 13:1 [To the chiefe Musician. A Psalme of Dauid.] How long wilt thou forget mee (O Lord) for euer? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soule, hauing sorrow in my heart dayly? how long shall mine enemie be exalted ouer me?
Psa 13:3 Consider and heare me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleepe of death.
Psa 13:4 Least mine enimie say, I haue preuailed against him: and those that trouble mee, reioyce, when I am moued.
Psa 13:5 But I haue trusted in thy mercy, my heart shall reioyce in thy saluation.
Psa 13:6 I will sing vnto the Lord, because hee hath dealt bountifully with mee.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74200
05/22/06 10:03 PM
05/22/06 10:03 PM
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KVJ, 1611 Quote:
Psa 13:1 [To the chiefe Musician. A Psalme of Dauid.] How long wilt thou forget mee (O Lord) for euer? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soule, hauing sorrow in my heart dayly? how long shall mine enemie be exalted ouer me?
Psa 13:3 Consider and heare me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleepe of death.
Psa 13:4 Least mine enimie say, I haue preuailed against him: and those that trouble mee, reioyce, when I am moued.
Psa 13:5 But I haue trusted in thy mercy, my heart shall reioyce in thy saluation.
Psa 13:6 I will sing vnto the Lord, because hee hath dealt bountifully with mee.
Geneva bible, 1560/75 Quote:
Psa 13:1 To him that excelleth. A Psalme of Dauid. Howe long wilt thou forget me, O Lord, for euer? howe long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsell within my selfe, hauing wearinesse dayly in mine heart? how long shall mine enemie be exalted aboue me?
Psa 13:3 Beholde, and heare mee, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, that I sleepe not in death:
Psa 13:4 Lest mine enemie say, I haue preuailed against him: and they that afflict me, reioyce when I slide.
Psa 13:5 But I trust in thy mercie: mine heart shall reioyce in thy saluation:
Psa 13:6 I will sing to the Lord, because he hath delt louingly with me.
Bishops bible, 1568 Quote:
Psa 13:1 [To the chiefe musition, a Psalme of Dauid.] Howe long wylt thou forget me O God, for euer? howe long wilt thou hyde thy face from me?
Psa 13:2 Howe long shall I seke counsayle in my soule, and be so vexed in mine heart euery day? howe long shall myne enemie triumph ouer me?
Psa 13:3 Loke downe and heare me O God my Lorde: lighten myne eyes, lest that I sleepe in death.
Psa 13:4 Lest myne enemie say, I haue preuayled agaynst hym: lest they that trouble me reioyce yf I shoulde be remoued.
Psa 13:5 But I repose my trust in thy mercie, and my heart is ioyfull in thy saluation:
Psa 13:6 (13:5) I wyll syng to God, because he hath rewarded me.
Well, Ill make the conclution from this that not even in those yonder days where there complete unity on how to translate scripture..
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74201
05/23/06 01:41 AM
05/23/06 01:41 AM
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U's,V's,E's.. A whole extra 3 seconds to decipher it is all it took me to figure out, not hard to do when you can speak english.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74202
05/23/06 01:44 AM
05/23/06 01:44 AM
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KJV Quote:
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
NIV
Quote:
Luke 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.
A world of difference.
God Bless,
Will
Last edited by Will; 05/23/06 01:45 AM.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74203
05/23/06 06:28 AM
05/23/06 06:28 AM
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hauing spoyled principalities and powers ?
swadling clothes ?
they were sore afraid ?
when I am moued ?
be so vexed ?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74204
05/23/06 11:20 PM
05/23/06 11:20 PM
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Looks like old English spelling to me that's quite different from today's spelling.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74205
05/24/06 07:43 PM
05/24/06 07:43 PM
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Yeah, looks like old English to me as well..........and while it might be a little difficult to follow at first, given some time, it is actually rather easy. Sorry, I know this next part is off topic, but looking at the spelling of some of hte words brought to mind the epic Beowulf....which i HAD to read in my senior year in high school. I was SOOOO glad to be done with it....but it helped me to be able to read "olde" English! :-)
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and HE will direct your paths. Proverbs 3:5,6
For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. Ecclesiastes 3:1
Stephanie
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74206
05/24/06 09:21 PM
05/24/06 09:21 PM
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Well, if you would look at the publishing dates posted above the quotes you would see that it not only looks like old English but that it in fact is old english.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74207
05/25/06 01:18 AM
05/25/06 01:18 AM
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I know enough of both the NIV and the KJV to say that the KJV should be used as the main English language Bible in Bible study.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74208
05/25/06 08:44 AM
05/25/06 08:44 AM
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Would you elaborate on that Daryl?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74209
05/25/06 11:59 PM
05/25/06 11:59 PM
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Compare the NIV to the corrupt latin vulgate and you can see how the NIV has a very strong catholic background.
I have a old catholic english translated latin vulgate. Interesting read.
I have a question, what Bible did William Miller use? Or Elder J White and other founders us? It was the KJV and in a few cases they used a Interlinear Bible. It was not until the late 1800's did they start qouting the RV. When they did qoute this other Bible did not change the meaning nor did it bring in confussion.
Since the KJV was good enough for the founders and it was the Bible the the Holy Spirit worked through it should be good enough for every SDA memeber and non memeber.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74210
05/26/06 12:47 AM
05/26/06 12:47 AM
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NIV or KJV?
Sorry for the delay, just finished a 1600 mile move and just got back online.
Quote
“Found a difference in the fourth chapter. The NIV says "They shall never enter my rest." while the KJV says "If they shall enter into my rest". A real difference. I couldnt understand the difference until I got the idea to check what Paul was quoting. Apparently he is quoting the 95th psalm which says in its last verse KJV "11Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
" The KJV in Hebrews is the only way to translate it according to the Strongs concordance. And it appears that NIV chose its translation from the original psalm. What to do with this I do not know.”
This is what I do with it J
In some KJV bibles in the margin it will read, “If they shall enter my rest” this is the correct translation by the Received Text.
Different KJV publishers have changed the margin readings. I have found so far anyway, that the Cambridge Bible is one of the best I have seen.
I believe that Paul was referring to the people that have hardened their hearts toward Christ and the truth they may not enter into His rest unless they change.
Concerning Matthew 17:20
quote
With this quote I would add the previous verses which says:
18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Is the praying and fasting refering to gaining faith or is it refering to the casting out of demons?
I would say that it could be both. However, in this context it would be the casting out of satan and his fallen angels, as well it can pertain to any need that we may have throughout our lives.
Compare John 3:16.
quote
No, you are right. "Should" indicates a possibility while "shall" indicates a sertainity. Acording to KJV believing in God does not nessessarily mean you will not perish. What to do with that?
If I only believe in God then can this save me? If so, satan believes in God will he be saved also?
There is more to Salvation than just believing in God, is there not? Galatians 2:8-10 for one thing.
quote
What the Concordance entry for the word translated patience in KJV says:
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
b) patiently, and steadfastly
2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance
For Synonyms see entry 5861
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 32
AV - patience 29, enduring 1, patient continuance 1,
patient waiting 1; 32
From this we see that "patient endurance" is a valid translation and that "patient waiting" is the translation most often used in the KJV for this greek word. This in my opinion means that there isnt much of a case for "one is right, the other is wrong" in this particular case.
/Thomas
I would say that from the writings of the founders that they used the KJV and the Holy Spirit used this Bible to bring up this movement why should we use another "bible"? Also, the KJV has stood the test of time. The first beast of Revelation has tried to destroy the KJV and could not. Since the whore of Babylon could not destroy the KJV out right what did she do? She put out more corrupt texts, claiming that they were older and better and some false teaches jumped on it and retranslated the "bible". These new translations undermine the KJV. Where did these “new” older texts come from and where were they found?????? Hint, two places
Also, a point about the NIV, some of the manuscripts that was used in its writings came from a man named "Gephart" (might be misspelled), who was a high priest for Hitler(WWII)Him and his son wrote their own "bible" translation. Some of their translation was included into the NIV. By the way "Gephart" was tried for war crimes at the end of WWII and found guilty and hung.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74211
05/26/06 01:01 AM
05/26/06 01:01 AM
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Just a little story about translations. I knew a lady who was giving Bible studies to a Catholic couple who insisted on using their Bible. She ended up proving to them that the Sabbath was the 7th day using the Catholic Bible. I found that interesting.
Redfog
The Catholic D R Bible is very similar to the KJV. Not suprising this bible has a strong Jesuit hand in it. It also came out really close tothe time that the KJV came out. The Catholic D R was to combat the KJV.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74212
05/26/06 05:46 AM
05/26/06 05:46 AM
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I had read somewhere that the pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower did not use the KJV because it was "politically correct" and they felt that King James was under Catholic influence, and the version the chose was the Geneva Bible. I cant confirm if this is true or not, but I will look into this further. Now on the otherhand making a statement that every SDA should be using the KJV doesn't ring to well with me since I am of a Hispanic background, in fact Hisoanic background,foreground, inside and out  A Bible translation that came out before the KJV was called Reina Valera, and there is a 1960 revised edition of this Bible, and it is a Protestant Bible translation. When my autn reads verses to me over the phone while discussing deep things, it brings memories of my childhood where we used that Bible, the words are very powerful. Anyways something to think about considering not every SDA speaks English, or prefers the English language. God Bless, Will
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74213
05/26/06 06:20 AM
05/26/06 06:20 AM
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How many of those years of KJV only where due to the nonexistence of the other translations? How long after the publishing of the other translations did it take for them to be used by these pioneers?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74214
05/26/06 10:47 AM
05/26/06 10:47 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
NIV or KJV?
Sorry for the delay, just finished a 1600 mile move and just got back online.
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The KJV in Hebrews is the only way to translate it according to the Strongs concordance. And it appears that NIV chose its translation from the original psalm. What to do with this I do not know.”
This is what I do with it J
In some KJV bibles in the margin it will read, “If they shall enter my rest” this is the correct translation by the Received Text.
Different KJV publishers have changed the margin readings. I have found so far anyway, that the Cambridge Bible is one of the best I have seen.
I believe that Paul was referring to the people that have hardened their hearts toward Christ and the truth they may not enter into His rest unless they change.
Are you refering to the passage in Hebrews or the one in Psalms?
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Concerning Matthew 17:20
...
I would say that it could be both. However, in this context it would be the casting out of satan and his fallen angels, as well it can pertain to any need that we may have throughout our lives.
This is the context it is found in. However I agree that it could and maybe should be applied to spiritual mountains other than demon possession aswell.
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Compare John 3:16.
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No, you are right. "Should" indicates a possibility while "shall" indicates a sertainity. Acording to KJV believing in God does not nessessarily mean you will not perish. What to do with that?
If I only believe in God then can this save me? If so, satan believes in God will he be saved also?
There is more to Salvation than just believing in God, is there not? Galatians 2:8-10 for one thing.
I dont quite understand what Galatians 2:8-10 has to do with either the question of salvation by faith or salvation by faith + something else or with the question of assurance of salvation. Again I will add some context:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So believing excludes condemnation and surely noone who is not condemned will perish? Galatians chapter 3 has much to say about salvation, including the following:
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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What the Concordance entry for the word translated patience in KJV says:
...
From this we see that "patient endurance" is a valid translation and that "patient waiting" is the translation most often used in the KJV for this greek word. This in my opinion means that there isnt much of a case for "one is right, the other is wrong" in this particular case.
/Thomas
I would say that from the writings of the founders that they used the KJV and the Holy Spirit used this Bible to bring up this movement why should we use another "bible"? Also, the KJV has stood the test of time. The first beast of Revelation has tried to destroy the KJV and could not. Since the whore of Babylon could not destroy the KJV out right what did she do? She put out more corrupt texts, claiming that they were older and better and some false teaches jumped on it and retranslated the "bible". These new translations undermine the KJV. Where did these “new” older texts come from and where were they found?????? Hint, two places
Also, a point about the NIV, some of the manuscripts that was used in its writings came from a man named "Gephart" (might be misspelled), who was a high priest for Hitler(WWII)Him and his son wrote their own "bible" translation. Some of their translation was included into the NIV. By the way "Gephart" was tried for war crimes at the end of WWII and found guilty and hung.
Peace and Grace
David
Did we now move from arguments on content and translation to arguments on tradition? I guess founding ones faith on the traditions created on the lives and practises of the men and wimen of God who went before us is another practise that has stood the test of time. For instance within the walls of Vatican City...
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74215
05/27/06 01:04 AM
05/27/06 01:04 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote;
“NIV or KJV?
Sorry for the delay, just finished a 1600 mile move and just got back online.
Quote
The KJV in Hebrews is the only way to translate it according to the Strongs concordance. And it appears that NIV chose its translation from the original psalm. What to do with this I do not know.”
This is what I do with it J
In some KJV bibles in the margin it will read, “If they shall enter my rest” this is the correct translation by the Received Text.
Different KJV publishers have changed the margin readings. I have found so far anyway, that the Cambridge Bible is one of the best I have seen.
I believe that Paul was referring to the people that have hardened their hearts toward Christ and the truth they may not enter into His rest unless they change.”
Quote;
Are you refering to the passage in Hebrews or the one in Psalms?
Both Hebrews and PS 95:11, both are speaking about people who either do not know the ways of God and/ or have hardened their hearts toward the ways of God. They will not enter into the rest that is promised. In Hebrews there is a chance to enter into the rest if they repent. In both texts the RT puts it as “If they shall enter”.
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“Compare John 3:16.
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No, you are right. "Should" indicates a possibility while "shall" indicates a sertainity. Acording to KJV believing in God does not nessessarily mean you will not perish. What to do with that?
If I only believe in God then can this save me? If so, satan believes in God will he be saved also?
There is more to Salvation than just believing in God, is there not? Galatians 2:8-10 for one thing.
I dont quite understand what Galatians 2:8-10 has to do with either the question of salvation by faith or salvation by faith + something else or with the question of assurance of salvation. Again I will add some context:”
From what you had written it seemed as though you were implying that all one had to do was to just believe I God and you will not perish. The Bible KJV explains that there is more to it than that, I used Galatians to point this out as well as James 2:19, for if all we had to do was believe than the devil and his fallen angels will also be saved. There is more to Salvation than just believing.
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“Did we now move from arguments on content and translation to arguments on tradition? I guess founding ones faith on the traditions created on the lives and practises of the men and wimen of God who went before us is another practise that has stood the test of time. For instance within the walls of Vatican City...”
/Thomas
No Thomas we have not, to me it seems that you feel that the NIV is as good or better than the NIV. I just pointed out some errors of this book called the NIV.
These new “older and better” codex’s that the new versions (NIV, AV and others) are based upon were found in two places, the Vatican catacomb library and in a trash basket at the MT Sinai monastery and taken to the great library of Alexandria. The oldest date on these codexes is around the 6th century.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74216
05/27/06 10:43 PM
05/27/06 10:43 PM
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The primary difference between the KJV and the NIV is that the KJV is a literal translation of the original manuscripts while the NIV is not a literal translation. We see this in all of the comparisons of the KJV and NIV done above.
Remember there are other English translations of the Bible, the bible that Protestant England used is the Geneva Bible which was translated in Geneva and was the best selling Bible from 1560 to 1644 or there about. For newer translations, the New American Standard Version is very good but sometimes a bit awkward to read. Another new translation, done in 2003 is the English Standard Version both it and the New American are literal translations and thus avoid many of the problems raised by the NIV.
Of the two the English Standard Version is easier to read and thus perhaps the better choice for the average reader. Remember however that no one translation is correct and it is best to read several to understand the specific text that you are reading.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74217
05/28/06 02:27 AM
05/28/06 02:27 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
The primary difference between the KJV and the NIV is that the KJV is a literal translation of the original manuscripts while the NIV is not a literal translation. We see this in all of the comparisons of the KJV and NIV done above.
Remember there are other English translations of the Bible, the bible that Protestant England used is the Geneva Bible which was translated in Geneva and was the best selling Bible from 1560 to 1644 or there about. For newer translations, the New American Standard Version is very good but sometimes a bit awkward to read. Another new translation, done in 2003 is the English Standard Version both it and the New American are literal translations and thus avoid many of the problems raised by the NIV.
Of the two the English Standard Version is easier to read and thus perhaps the better choice for the average reader. Remember however that no one translation is correct and it is best to read several to understand the specific text that you are reading.
I am not familiar with the English translation, is it the same as the "New English". I am familiar with the NEV and it destroys our beliefs in the moral law and the ceremonial law.
Is this English version taken from the Received Text or the corrupted text from the Vatican?
I would like to have a copy of the Geneva Bible.
Have you used an Interlinear Bible?
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74218
05/28/06 02:58 AM
05/28/06 02:58 AM
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Do you have e-Sword?
If not, you can download it as it is free software, and then add on the Geneva Bible as an add-on to this software.
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74219
05/30/06 08:58 AM
05/30/06 08:58 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
Now on the otherhand making a statement that every SDA should be using the KJV doesn't ring to well with me since I am of a Hispanic background, in fact Hisoanic background,foreground, inside and out A Bible translation that came out before the KJV was called Reina Valera, and there is a 1960 revised edition of this Bible, and it is a Protestant Bible translation. When my autn reads verses to me over the phone while discussing deep things, it brings memories of my childhood where we used that Bible, the words are very powerful. Anyways something to think about considering not every SDA speaks English, or prefers the English language.
God Bless,
Will
I agree with this point. What do you do with the bilions of people who where not born and raised in the 6 anglosaxon nations and therefore have some other language as mothertounge? For those who are tempted to answere, "learn english", Ill ask: why english? why not bible hebrew or koine greek and get right to the source without someone else to translate for you. Since you have to learn a language anyways...
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74220
05/30/06 09:25 AM
05/30/06 09:25 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
Quote;
“NIV or KJV?
Both Hebrews and PS 95:11, both are speaking about people who either do not know the ways of God and/ or have hardened their hearts toward the ways of God. They will not enter into the rest that is promised. In Hebrews there is a chance to enter into the rest if they repent. In both texts the RT puts it as “If they shall enter”.
But the 1611 version says "Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest." Do you by mentioning the RT argue that the first version acctually needed revising?
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“Compare John 3:16.
I dont quite understand what Galatians 2:8-10 has to do with either the question of salvation by faith or salvation by faith + something else or with the question of assurance of salvation. Again I will add some context:”
From what you had written it seemed as though you were implying that all one had to do was to just believe I God and you will not perish. The Bible KJV explains that there is more to it than that, I used Galatians to point this out as well as James 2:19, for if all we had to do was believe than the devil and his fallen angels will also be saved. There is more to Salvation than just believing.
You will like this passage:
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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No Thomas we have not, to me it seems that you feel that the NIV is as good or better than the NIV. I just pointed out some errors of this book called the NIV.
These new “older and better” codex’s that the new versions (NIV, AV and others) are based upon were found in two places, the Vatican catacomb library and in a trash basket at the MT Sinai monastery and taken to the great library of Alexandria. The oldest date on these codexes is around the 6th century.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Peace and Grace
David
One use of these other manuscripts, both those with scripture and others is that they help linguists know what the meaning of long forgotten words are. There are words in the manuscripts that noone has remembered the meaning of since the time of Jesus that can now be translated.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74221
06/17/06 03:55 AM
06/17/06 03:55 AM
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Interesting discussion, but I think it perhaps started with the wrong question. Start with a faulty premise, end with a faulty answer. Perhaps a better question for English speakers/readers would be "What is the best translation to use in modern english?". We all know the language of the KJV is becoming out of date, and we don't want to be like that church of the middle ages where only a small number like the clergy & monks could understand the language. We also all know that all translations are imperfect. So pointing out that one translation has a problem here or there in itself may not be helpful, since this can be done at least some with all translations. I would assume all readers here would want a translation that is as true to the original Greek/Hebrew (and maybe Aramaic) as possible. So we want a literal translation, and not a paraphrase or a translation that uses “dynamic equivalency”, at least for our primary study Bible. That of course immediately eliminates the NIV, as it uses a lot of dynamic equivalency and then some. Take for example the NIV text that probably causes the most TSDA’s to get heartburn, Heb. 9:12. “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” KJV The NIV uses the phrase “Most Holy place” instead of “holy place”, making it seem as though Christ went into the 2nd compartment of the heavenly sanctuary at His ascension. This of course is not in the original Greek or Latin texts that we have copies of. Some may also want to stay in the tradition of translation of the “received text” only. So what Bibles meet these criteria? I found this quick guide which seems helpful: http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/compare.htmFollowing the above guide, there is only 1 Bible in common use that meets all criteria: The NKJV. I have only heard 1 argument that seems at least somewhat reasonable to me against it vs. the KJV: the issue of copyright. Of course any copyrights on the old KJV are long gone and it may be freely copied by anyone. The NKJV on the other hand is copyrighted, and though the publishers allow for generous quoting, it may not be republished in whole without permission. What do the rest of you think?
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Re: NIV vs KJV
#74222
06/17/06 01:35 PM
06/17/06 01:35 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I find some problems with the NKJV as I do others, but I always compare everything I read back to the original languages. For me, the best modern version is the NCV. I have used it in many sermons, while teaching Sabbath School, and having bible studies, and two things jump right out at me: firs, everyone agrees that it is the most clear and easy to understand text they have heard. Second, they all agree that it is very accurate to the original text. Check it out if you like. It is far superior to the NIV. Crosswalk Bible Choose the NCV from the dropdown and look up a text.
Oh Happy Day!
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