What I would like to know are the parables of Jesus fact or fiction, or are some fact and other fiction, or what?

Please back up your reply with either a Bible reference or a SOP reference, or both.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

The rich man and Lazarus. I don't think that needs a reference. Fiction
Actually I'm preparing an evangelistic series based on the parables of Jesus so I hope this thread gets lots of responses!

From the dictionary:

quote:

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fiction
1
a : something invented by the imagination or feigned; specif : an invented story
b : fictitious literature (as novels or short stories)
c : a work of fiction; esp : novel
2
a : an assumption of a possibility as a fact irrespective of the question of its truth
b : a useful illusion or pretense
3 : the action of feigning or of creating with the imagination

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From the thesaurus:

quote:

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fiction
fiction [n]
made-up story
anecdote, best seller, book, cliff-hanger, clothesline, concoction, crock, drama, fable, fabrication, falsehood, fancy, fantasy, fib, figment of imagination, fish story, hooey, imagination, improvisation, invention, legend, lie, misrepresentation, myth, narrative, novel, potboiler, prevarication, romance, smoke, storytelling, tale, tall story, terminological inexactitude, untruth, whopper, work of imagination, yarn

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According to the definition, fiction is an invented story, out of the imagination. Synomyms for fiction include the words: lie, misrepresentation, falsehood, fib, and myth. Now that we know what fiction is, we must determine if Jesus would tell a story that was fiction.

The Bible says that Satan is the father of the lie.

quote:

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John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

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It also states that God cannot lie.

quote:

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Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

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It then tells us in very certain terms that those who lie, who make lies, and those who believe lies will not be in heaven but will be outside the New Jerusalem and will be thrown into the lake of fire.

quote:

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Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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Did Jesus sin?

quote:

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2 Corinthians 5: 20, 21 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:21, 22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

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That's the basics. God cannot lie, Jesus Christ was God incarnate, and He did no sin. If Christ has no fellowship with Belial, then He did not use fiction.

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

The rich man and Lazarus

This was an allegory that compared the hellinistic pagan greek thought with what Scripture taught in such a way as to stimulate personal study as to the actual state of the dead,(hellenistic or greek thought had become rooted among the leadership & people @ that time insted of Scripture), salvation in Messiah verses Abraham, miracles verses Scripture being the test of faith, and the ressurected Lazarus was in the group.

The word picture was a sarcastic hyperbolye, a story built to contrast it's own imposibilities so much as to lead the hearer to see their absurdity without being decived by their falsehoods. See Joe Crew's pamphlet on difficult Bible passages from the ABC.

here's SOP references for use as raw data. Happy sermon / series building.

Search words (rich man Lazarus)
Christ’s Object Lessons(COL) Chap. 21 - "A Great Gulf Fixed"p-260,261,263,264,266,267
Desire Of Ages (DA)Chap. 44 - The True Sign p-407,790
The Southern work.(SW) Section I - Ellen White's Appeal To The Church(see p- 12)
Spirit of Prophecy Volume 3{3SP 205.3} Chapter XV. - Jesus at Emmaus. (See p- 208)
{1T p-539.2}
{2T p-197.1}
This Day with God {TDG 183.1}Chap. 175 - God's Dealings With Men, (p-183)
Welfare Ministry {WM 172.1}p-172
March 4, 1880 Deceitfulness of Riches.{RH, March 4, 1880 par. 10}
December 23, 1890 "Be Zealous and Repent." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 2}
October 13, 1896 The Spirit of Sacrifice.{RH, October 13, 1896 par. 4}

December 28, 1897 "He Was Wounded for Our Transgressions."{RH, December 28, 1897 par. 4}* Lazarus present among the crowd hearing the parable. (Also he was cast as the good guy verses the evil rich.)

December 19, 1899 "How Hardly Shall They That Have Riches Enter Into the Kingdom of God."{RH, December 19, 1899 par. 8 & 9}

March 22, 1883 Deceitfulness of Riches.{ST, March 22, 1883 par. 9}
June 30, 1887 Our Lord's Estimate of Riches.{ST, June 30, 1887 par. 11}
October 2, 1893 "My People Have Committed Two Evils." {ST, October 2, 1893 par. 7}
June 25, 1894 One Cause of Suffering.{ST, June 25, 1894 par. 1}
June 21, 1899 "For Our Sakes He Became Poor."{ST, June 21, 1899 par. 3}
6Red - Redemption: or the Resurrection of Christ; and His Ascension (1877) {6Red 27.2}
PH098 - Testimony for the Church at Olcott, N. Y. (1868) {PH098 20.2}
1888 - The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987)Chap. 99 - "Be Zealous and Repent."{1888}{ p-764.2}

Search words (Lazarus among)25 hits: {COL 268.1}; {DA 524.2}; {DA 557.3}{DA 557.4}{DA 558.1}; {DA 829.2}; {LHU 100.3}; {ML 208.3}; {2SP 361.2}; {2SP 364.1}; {2SP 372.2}; {2SP 388.2}; {1T 539.2}; {RH, March 4, 1880 par. 10}; {RH, December 28, 1897 par. 4}; {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 3}; {RH, August 7, 1900 par. 1}; {RH, May 4, 1911 par. 15}; {ST, October 9, 1879 par. 3}; {ST, March 22, 1883 par. 9}; {3Red 102.2}; {3Red 105.2}; {4Red 105.2}; {4Red 120.2}; {16MR 326.2}

Search word (Lazarus)=261 hits , too many for me - feel free to delve into SOP (EGW disk -published works & have at it.) Lots of sermon & series material all linked to Scripture.

Perhaps, I should have worded it fact or hyperbole.

Linda is correct in that Jesus never ever told a lie.

Did he, however, use a hyperbole in telling his parable on The Rich Man & Lazarus?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited November 04, 2000).]

The Parables Of Jesus
By David T. Battler

See Luke 16:19-31

I really appreciated brother Ed’s and Linda’s replies. While it is perhaps useful to point out the current day English semantics related to the word “fiction,” we must be careful not to get side-tracked on current semantical definitions and relationships; according to modern English.

Linda was right on in saying that Jesus did not really tell fictional stories. Now, we have a window of opportunity opened before us to peel back the layers of Biblical implications regarding the Word “parable.” If we relate only the modern English dictionary meaning of the word parable, for instance, we run into difficulty immediately, because “parable” in the English language can also mean things like: “myth, fable,” etc.

It is unsafe, in a quest for true Biblical definition of “parable” or anything else, to limit your search to a standard dictionary definition. The best approach is always to use the Bible itself, to explain itself.

Since the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is being mentioned; I will briefly address that one for now to illustrate what I am talking about better. Going back to the original, Biblical term, and it’s meaning, we can soon see that “parable” is the rendering in the AVKJV of the verb “paraballo” meaning things like: “to lay by the side of,” or “to compare,” resulting in a likeness, or a representation being drawn.

In the case of the rich man and Lazarus, there is a likeness, or, representation being illustrated by Jesus of a wonderful Bible truth. Jesus is using the current; yet false beliefs of the Jews in that day regarding the condition of souls in “Sheol.”

The principle is maintained throughout this parable, that experiencing either bliss or misery after one dies, is determined by a person’s conduct while they are still living.

The details used by Jesus in describing this picture were borrowed by Him to make a point to us about what really happens when you die, and why. We can never use such details to give assent to, or to agree with these ancient Jewish beliefs used by Jesus in making His point about the eternal truth from God’s Word.

According to this parable, the eternal destiny of someone is decided in the present life; and there is no second chance or probation after Jesus comes.
Some of the points of Jewish belief that Jesus used to illustrate This grand Truth were:

1) “Abraham’s bosom”

2) “A great gulf fixed”

3) “I have five brethren.”

Perhaps we could explore these and other Jewish beliefs mentioned in this parable to see better what Jesus was trying to convey.

Remember, we are only justified when we understand a parable IN HARMONY with other Bible truths.

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Jesus presented many mini-parables that were obviously hyperbole, fiction or whatever you want to call it. I prefer to call them "idioms of communication."

Straining out the gnats while swallowing camels, a camel through the eye of a needle (there was never such a thing as "Needle Gate" in the bible lands--it was just an invention in the mid-centuries to water down the tough teaching of Christ) and a "wolf in sheep's clothing" (a la Aesop) are obvious examples of what we're dealing with.

God talks to man in the language man understands. For instance, we Christians even use expressions like "the sun goes down" even if we know that the earth is simply revolving and the sun is just hidden from our sight (and not on a slow boat travelling through the underworld).

Our good professors at Andrews even applied this to the visions of Ellen White. When God showed EGW the vision of the 10 commandments, they were obviously written in the English of her day so that she could recognize that there was a light on the 4th Commandment. The real 10 commandments were written in Ancient Hebrew on both sides of two stones--2 tablets because all legal documents had to have a copy, not because the first four were on one...

Getting back to Jesus, a review of New Testament culture that I've been reading recently indicated that Jesus was quite well acquainted with Greek culture and history. Christ used "local language" and the people's understanding of how the world worked at that time to get His message through to the people.

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As the Happy Moments Roll,

Pastor Andrew

Some information that might help--

About Jesus teaching in parables:

quote:

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The great Teacher brought His hearers in contact with nature, that they might listen to the voice which speaks in all created things; and as their hearts became tender and their minds receptive, He helped them to interpret the spiritual teaching of the scenes upon which their eyes rested. The parables, by means of which He loved to teach lessons of truth, show how open His spirit was to the influences of nature, and how He delighted to gather the spiritual teaching from the surroundings of daily life. (CG 51)

So wide was Christ's view of truth, so extended His teaching, that every phase of nature was employed in illustrating truth. The scenes upon which the eye daily rests were all connected with some spiritual truth, so that nature is clothed with the parables of the Master.

In the earlier part of His ministry, Christ had spoken to the people in words so plain that all His hearers might have grasped truths which would make them wise unto salvation. But in many hearts the truth had taken no root, and it had been quickly caught away. "Therefore speak I to them in parables." He said; "because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . . For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed." Matt. 13:13-15.

Jesus desired to awaken inquiry. He sought to arouse the careless, and impress truth upon the heart. Parable teaching was popular, and commanded the respect and attention, not only of the Jews, but of the people of other nations. No more effective method of instruction could He have employed. If His hearers had desired a knowledge of divine things, they might have understood His words; for He was always willing to explain them to the honest inquirer.

Again, Christ had truths to present which the people were unprepared to accept or even to understand. For this reason also He taught them in parables. By connecting His teaching with the scenes of life, experience, or nature, He secured their attention and impressed their hearts. Afterward, as they looked upon the objects that illustrated His lessons, they recalled the words of the divine Teacher. To minds that were open to the Holy Spirit, the significance of the Saviour's teaching unfolded more and more. Mysteries grew clear, and that which had been hard to grasp became evident. (COL 20-21)

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About the parable "Rich Man and Lazarus"

quote:

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In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him. (COL 263)

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For one of the best expositions on this parable read Denis Crews booklet online at this address:
http://www.amazingfacts.org//catalog/pb/bk-rmal.html

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

Telling a story that isn't true is not lying if everyone understands that it isn't true. People use hypothetical situations all the time. Jesus told stories all the time that weren't documented occurences.
Prodigal son
lost sheep
lost coin
persistent widow
ten virgins
wedding feast (will people without a garment really be able to sneak in)
etc...
Telling a story that is fictional is not lying if your listeners understand that it is for the purpose of illustration. Lying is when you are seeking to deceive someone. If I'm wrong than Jesus is a liar, because people in heaven won't be speaking to people in hell, people won't be sneaking into heaven without being robed in Christ's righteousness, nobody will be eternally lost because their literal lamps ran out of literal oil.

Fiction is not true, that is it's nature, otherwise it would no longer be fiction. Jesus always told the truth and still does. His manner of revealing those truths is what is in question.

Is Jesus revealing these truths as occurrences that actually happened or as stories connected with the daily lives of His hearers to anchor those deeper truths in them as they see those events in daily life and remember His words? Perhaps inspiration will tell?

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Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited November 05, 2000).]

Jesus always met people where they were.

He used examples of every day occurences as an example if how heavenly things worked( i.e. the sower and the seed )
The great Teacher brought His hearers in contact with nature, that they might listen to the voice which speaks in all created things; and as their hearts became tender and their minds receptive, He helped them to interpret the spiritual teaching of the scenes upon which their eyes rested. The parables, by means of which He loved to teach lessons of truth, show how open His spirit was to the influences of nature, and how He delighted to gather the spiritual teaching from the surroundings of daily life. (CG 51)

The purpose of the parable was to teach. Those that would not listen nor understand, didn't. Those that were truly seeking for wisdom did.

in many hearts the truth had taken no root, and it had been quickly caught away. "Therefore speak I to them in parables." He said; "because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . . For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed." Matt. 13:13-15.
... Christ had truths to present which the people were unprepared to accept or even to understand. For this reason also He taught them in parables. By connecting His teaching with the scenes of life, experience, or nature, He secured their attention and impressed their hearts. Afterward, as they looked upon the objects that illustrated His lessons, they recalled the words of the divine Teacher. To minds that were open to the Holy Spirit, the significance of the Saviour's teaching unfolded more and more. Mysteries grew clear, and that which had been hard to grasp became evident. (COL 20-21)

It served a twofold purpose;
1) It taught a lesson to those in hearing,
2) it hid from them things they weren't yet ready for.

By doing this, as they yeilded more and more to the leading of the Holy Spirit, the lessons became clearer as they watched the every day occurences used to explain heavenly things.

Are they true or false?
I guess it would depend on your personal viewpoint, or, on whether you believe that God cannot lie.
Either they are true, or, Jesus is the biggest liar in history.
Personally, I believe they are true, we just don't understand all there is to understand about them.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

I have to ask this question. Does it really matter whether the parables were "fables", "hyperbole" or whatever you might want to call them. We are all in agreement that Jesus is truth.

I agree that Jesus/God must speak to/with us in terms that we can understand. Were He to approach us in a language that explains everything clearly 1) would we listen, 2) would we even truly understand? We as humans look for the underlying message - as we are meant to do. Each of the parables has a message that lies underneath the story - and Jesus often gave us a clue, or hint or the message itself so that we would understand.

We must also remember that Jesus was not only speaking to the people 2000 years ago, He knew that He would be speaking to the generations to come, so He needed to phrase things in such a way that we would understand - even 2000 years later. We cannot necessarily judge or know what was going on back then, just as we cannot judge or know what will happen in the future.

Pastor Potts was talking about the Rich Man & Lazarus the other day during the seminar, and mentioned that this was a story believed to be very popular in the days of Jesus, and he used it to teach a message. When we try to explain something to someone, we must use illustrations that they are familiar with. If my computer programming (student) husband tried to explain something to me using programming language, I would NEVER be able to figure out what he was saying - it would be Greek to me, just as an example.

My thoughts anyway. This is an interesting topic. Where will it lead. . . ?

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

One word can and usually does have several meanings. The first definition for fiction, as provided by Linda, was a story derived from one's imagination. I fail to see how there is anything wrong with that. Like I said before, lying is deceiving someone. However, if someone tells a story that everyone understands is not factual, that is not a lie because no one has been deceived. If it is, then Jesus was a liar, and that is not possible...

A person can generically talk about events everyone understands in common and explain a bigger truth by doing it without having to give all the specific details of a specific event that happened. That is what an analogy or allegory is, it is not the telling of a specific event but telling of the commonly understood facets of something in story form that get points across and tie them in with the facets of the story.

The dispute seems to be over semantics. One person says fiction with one mind set and another reads it with another mindset, and then words fly and communication regarding actual intended meanings stops quicker than a test crash car into the wall.

Jesus used word pictures. His oils have never faded. However not all word pictures taught what He said, some were rubbing their noses in their fictions, like house training a stubborn kitty. Heaven ain't Abraham's bosom & Hell ain't a hole in the ground. But Jesus used them both to repaint the common misconceptions.

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Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited November 08, 2000).]