I want to continue with my book, but I couldn’t because I still could not decide which view I must use in regard of the death that happens to men.

I am still confuse which one of these views is right according to the Scripture, maybe we can discuss it more deeper to determine the correct one, especially if it effects our view of God.

I do not want to get a wrong picture of God, because “knowing God is eternal life”, having a wrong picture of God character might indicate WE DON’T KNOW GOD, AND THUS HAVE NOT ETERNAL LIFE.

So, I summarize these three views claimed by Tom Ewall and Mountain Man and my self, each could support their view with the Scripture and SOP quotes. Regarding Tom and M.M.views we have enough of their contradiction in some of the topics here in this forum.

Tom’s view (in my own words):
Sin causes death,.
We fall down from a 10 story building and died because there is a law of gravity that pull us down to earth. So is sin, it causes our death, it pulls the life out of us.

M.M. view (in my own word):
We died the 1st death because we no longer eat the fruit of life and we die the 2nd death because God sent brimstone and fire to burn sinners to death.

My own view:
We died the 1st death because we inherit Adam’s death body; the seed of death was passed on to us through multiplication of the flesh.
We died the 2nd death because it is God responsibility to annihilate sin. God could not let sin and sinners live forever side by side with righteousness and holiness. By blocking man to continue eat the fruit of life He already shown his concern against sin. And at the end of time where every one has chosen whom they serve and what they sow, God would wipe out sin and sinners forever from his universe without being blamed as cruel, savage or bad because he has proven his love before hand. His act of wiping sinners and sin from his universe would get appreciation from all his creations and not insult.

How did God wipe sinners forever? As the Scripture said; Fire from heaven (God) will burn all those sinners till nothing left.

I am happy to have your comment and view regarding this topic, helping me to decide the best and the truth.

In His love

James S

Regarding the first death, Paul tells us, "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men."

Regarding the second, John tells us "He that has the Son has life. He that has not the Son, has not life." Also "He that believes in Me shall never die."

Isaiah says: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly." (Isa. 33:14, 15)

Only those who have believed in Jesus Christ will be able to bear the revealed glory of God.

I think I must posted another view than the three views already above.

Quoted from Darius post Mon May 08 2006 01:21 PM
Mortality does not mean death, it means subject to death. The Creator alone is not subject to death. We must be careful with the idea that death is inherent to sin. Fruitflies always had a limited lifespan. LIfe has always been comprised of cycles. Sperm died everytime Adam knew his wife. Death is a part of life.
Unquote.

View #4. Death is a part of life.

If I may interpret this: When God created Adam's and he becomes alife but a mortal person subject to death, in him the seed of death has been implanted.

In His love

James S

Tom, your view even it is back up by the Scripture and SOP, but I see some weakness in it, i.e.:

1. It was Adam that sinned and he must die. His offspring inherits his death body, they died because Adam died. The 1st death that happens to mankind is the death that they inherit from Adam through multiplication of the flesh because they were born in the image of Adam after he sinned and expelled from Eden and must die.

We died the 1st death because God takes away our life, he takes away His Spirit

How life is created in Adam?
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.” – Genesis 2:7

So, the breath of life is “the Source of our life”, without it we are back into dust of the ground. And we knew that “the breath of life” is the Spirit of God.

Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”

Life is the body + the Spirit of God that gives life, death is the body without the spirit of God.
What happen with a death man? “And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” – Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Look, these verses is telling us about the process of 1st life and 1st death.

2. Why Satan can attend a congregation in heaven and stand before God and did not die?

If sin that caused death and no one that sin could stand before God because his glory would consume the sinner, why then, Satan came to the congregation held in heaven (Job 16,7) and not die?

I think, looking from this verse, sin is not that caused death, otherwise, Satan would die instantly when he appeared in front of God’s glory.

Can you defend your view against this.

In His love

James S

Another weakness if sin is the direct cause of a man’s death.

Romans 5:12 – Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:14 – Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that has to come.

Unborn babies and just born babies died in thousands every day around the world even thought they didn’t know what sin is and haven’t yet transgress any law as Adam did, but nevertheless they died.

Is sin the direct cause of their death? I think no, because they haven’t make any sin. Sin is the indirect cause of the death of men.

What caused their death?
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”

In His love

James S

It was Adam's sin which resulted in the death of all. That's what Romans 5:12 says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men."

Adam sinned. By him, death entered into the world, and passed to all men.

The counsel that Satan attended in Job 1:6 just says the sons of God presented themselves before the Lord. It doesn't say where they were. It seems clear to me that Satan was not appearing before the unfettered glory of God, because he could not have born that. As Isa. 33:14, 15 says:

Quote:

---

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly.

---

Satan can't stand being near God. That's why he left heaven (Jude 1:6).

Tom.

I agree that because Adam sinned, he must die. But sin, according to me is the indirect cause of human death, not the direct cause.

A man died when a knife is stabbed in his heart, when a bullet is shot through his brain and when he is his by a train. The knife, the bullet and the train is the direct cause of the death of this man, and not his sin. That what I want to make clear!

If sin is the direct cause of human death, then he would not die by these three means that struck him, unless Satan wants him die, because Satan is his master.

And if sin is the direct cause of man’s death, as long a man lives by faith and is righteous, Satan would not kill him, he would wait till the man sinned and immediately kill him. And Satan would not let a sinner live long but would kill him right away, otherwise this man might get the opportunity to repent. That makes sense right?

Thus, your view that sin is the caused of death, is right but not as the direct cause of death it self but as an indirect cause. What I asked in this topic, what is the direct cause of human death? Is it God that draws his Spirit, is it Satan that kill us, or is it because of other means?

One other weakness of your view is if a sinner is shot or stabbed at the heart, he must surely die, but some times a miracle happened, he didn’t die. Why? Because God spare his life? If so is the case, then really sin is not the cause of death.

In His love

James S

I see here confusion between spiritual death and physical death. These two are distinctly different and not to be confused. So I will try expressing it in a different way to try to break out of the mold of thought.

Sin causes spiritual death instantly and directly. Sin is spiritual death, and spiritual death is sin. Sin is spiritual and not physical. The life of the body was made on a different level and has always (before or after sin) been of a temporary nature. In other words the body was never made to have life in itself of itself.

Once man sinned he lost spiritual life and became carnal; that is, he now lives by the flesh (or the body). This is where many are confusing life and existence and wondering why they are still around when they should be dead, or thinking that God has to kill them (the body) in order for them to die.

So first of all, salvation has to do with passing from death to life; bringing life back to the spirit, by being born again of the spirit. It comes by birth; spiritual birth. While in creation, man received life of the spirit by creation; in salvation man is born to life of spirit. This is why in the primary aspect of salvation from sin, you do not see God doing anything to the body, but it all happens in the spirit. So the issue of sin and salvation has to do with the life of the spirit, and not of the body. Nevertheless sin has also an effect on the body, because the body was never made to continue existing without the life of the spirit.

In God’s kingdom the spirit and the body are in agreement. The current existence therefore is unnatural, because it is not in agreement with the spirit, and exists by God’s intervention (striving of his spirit with man) called mercy and grace, giving us ‘time’ so that we may be saved. The length of time is immaterial. The thief on the cross died, though he was saved.

The secondary aspect of salvation is the restoration of the physical side to the agreement of the spirit. Now this should make one realize that, if they are dead in spirit, what will happen when God restores the body to agreement with spirit. On the other hand it is also the blessed looking forward to of those who live by the spirit. So what is it that kills the lost, when God restores the agreement of the body to the spirit? Is it God killing them, or is it the dead state of their spirit which is sin?

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

What warning did God give Adam, and Adam passed on to Eve, assuming that Eve didn't also hear it directly from God herself? To answer this question we must first look at the creation of man, namely Adam.

Quote:

---

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

---

Adam became a living soul. Thus began the life of Adam, which should have been eternal life. Correct?

Now to the warning, or the conditional of eternal life.

Quote:

---

Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

---

The warning? Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The consequence of not heeding the warning? If you eat of it, in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.

Both Adam and Eve didn't heed the warning, therefore, what happened next?

Quote:

---

Gen. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen. 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen. 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

---

Amongst other things, Adam was told that he would eventually die a physical death as a consequence of not heeding the warning. This, of course, also happened to Eve and their children, all as a consequence of Adam and Eve not heeding the warning.

There's another interesting event.

Quote:

---

Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

---

Where did the coats of skins come from? The logical conclusion is that God killed the animals from which was taken the coats of skins that were given to Adam and Eve for clothing, for they now needed to be clothed, another consequence of not heeding the warning.

What else happened in order that their lives not continue eternally?

Quote:

---

Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Gen. 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

---

God drove them out of the Garden of Eden and placed angels to keep them from entering and eating from the Tree of Life.

These were all acts on God's part, therefore, it would seem logical to say that God caused death as a result of their not heeding His warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.