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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74450
06/04/06 02:02 AM
06/04/06 02:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, how do you explain the fact that the animals died after man sinned? If death comes as a result of not eating from a tree, why didn't the animals die earlier, since they never ate from the tree of life? Why did they die afterwards? The following statements make clear that sin results in death: Quote:
The soul that sins shall die. (Exek 18:20)
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Sin pays its wages - death. (Rom. 6:23 GNB)
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Death gets its power to hurt from sin. (1 Cor. 15:16 GNB)
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Sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:15 GNB)
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Sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men. (Romans 5:12)
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Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.(DA 764)
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We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. (FILB 84)
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Show that it was sin which marred God's perfect work; that thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God. (FILB 274)
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In all His dealings with His creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. (God's Amazing Grace 73)
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But in all His dealings with his creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. (PP 522)
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The sin of man has brought the sure result,--decay, deformity, and death. (1SDABC 1085)
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Adam and Eve persuaded themselves that in so small a matter as eating of the forbidden fruit, there could not result such terrible consequences as God had declared. But this small matter was sin, the transgression of God's immutable and holy law, and it opened the floodgates of death and untold woe upon our world. . . . Let us not esteem sin as a trivial thing. (That I May Know Him 14)
I can hardly think of a truth more conclusively established by inspiration that sin results in death. Satan denied this, but there is no need for us to believe him. He is just trying to avoid responsibility for his own work, and to deceive us as to the nature of sin:
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It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74451
06/04/06 03:03 AM
06/04/06 03:03 AM
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Read my post again and you will see that I separated man's act, or choice, from God's response to man's act, or choice.
What God did, as a result of man's disobedience, by not heeding the warning, which, of course, was man's choice, were all acts of God.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74452
06/04/06 03:40 AM
06/04/06 03:40 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Yes Daryl, I made that difference, and that was the point:
God did not sin, man did. God did not eat of the tree, man did. God warned them what would happen if they ate of the tree, not what he would do if they ate of the tree.
What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74453
06/04/06 04:06 AM
06/04/06 04:06 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds. I got this idea from the Spirit of Prophecy:Quote:
The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.--2T 347 (1870). {1MCP 73.1}
It took me awhile to find this. I read it around 30 years ago, but it made an impression on me (obvsiously, since I remembered it after 30 years). I was a non-Adventist Christian before becoming an Adventist, and did not realize that all communication between man and God occurred through the brain.
Regarding your questioning as to whether Paul's spirit could exist apart from the body, I'm surprised an Adventist would suggest this, since non-SDA's use this as an argument that Advenist theology regarding the nature of man is incorrect. Here is a response from the BRI which argues against the idea that Paul is suggesting that the spirit can exist apart from the body: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/bodycheck.htm
The fact that you even suggest such a possibility indicates either one of the following two possibilities is the case:
1.You are not aware of what Adventist theology is on this subject. That is, you do not know that SDA's do no believe the spirit can exist apart from the body.
2.You are aware of this, but are not sure that it is correct.
I would be interested in knowing which of these two is the case.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74454
06/04/06 04:22 AM
06/04/06 04:22 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
What God did, as a result of man's disobedience, by not heeding the warning, which, of course, was man's choice, were all acts of God.
What is it that God did? John is exactly right in pointing out that what God did as a result of man's sin, which could only result in death, was to provide a way by which man might be healed.
Quote:
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (2SM 288)
All the woe that man knows comes to us through sin and Satan. God is not responsible for any of it. He never planted the seed of death in the system. Death comes from sin alone, and, indeed, cannot be separated from it. Not only death, but every other evil thing, or to put it another way, every thing which God did not create originally or was not in existence before sin, such as lying, violence, killing and so forth, results from sin, and not from God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74455
06/04/06 05:26 AM
06/04/06 05:26 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
I’m still thinking about your idea John that man died spiritually at the fall. Do I have that right? I was glad to see you raised the issue of the spiritual nature of man in this context because it relates to the question of the thread. Could you confirm that is what you’re saying and I’ll give that more thought.
Here is my statement:
In sin man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. Man lost spiritual life and became carnal; that is, he (his spirit) now subsists by the flesh (or the body).
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In another thread I raised the issue of the physical and spiritual nature of man and asked if Adventism’s view that man is a combination of the breath of life or spirit of God and physical body is an adequate description of humankind.
I have also answered this to JS when he said "Life is: Body + the Spirit of God." that: That would be God living in his own body, not man. In order for man to be a person, he must have his own spirit. God gave man spirit at creation; that was man’s spirit.
Also I have seen some who think that life is only physical (breath + body). That the sum of the breath + body = a soul. That may be some form of life, but it is not “man”, much less “man-in the image of God”.
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Tom said: “There is no spiritual aspect to man which does not involve his mind. All communication between God and man happens through the mind, . . .When a person is in vision, or dreaming, their mind is active. Their spirit doesn't go anywhere. No part of the person has moved to a different location, although the mind may perceive this to be happening.”
Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds.
Whether God brings the vision to man, or transports ‘him’ to some other place spiritually, I see no difference or issue. I am not aware of any information to categorically define this. The fact is: that man’s mind is cognizant of the difference in state and all communication and happening. One thing is certain, that the matter of the vision is recorded in the brain, but the understanding is in the spirit.
The point that I think we need to realize in the issue of the controversy between good and evil, is that it is spiritual and not physical, and that there is spiritual life and physical life. If the spiritual life is brought down to the level of the physical brain only, it is lost; and if the spiritual life is made to be outside of the activity of the mind, it is lost. The point that should be easily understood is that God is concerned about “what manner of spirit we are of”.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74456
06/04/06 06:25 AM
06/04/06 06:25 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
It took me awhile to find this. I read it around 30 years ago, but it made an impression on me (obvsiously, since I remembered it after 30 years). I was a non-Adventist Christian before becoming an Adventist, and did not realize that all communication between man and God occurred through the brain.
Regarding your questioning as to whether Paul's spirit could exist apart from the body, I'm surprised an Adventist would suggest this, since non-SDA's use this as an argument that Advenist theology regarding the nature of man is incorrect. Here is a response from the BRI which argues against the idea that Paul is suggesting that the spirit can exist apart from the body:
Tom
Dont you find the examples made by Mark worthy of comment? In a bible study, surely the bible carries greater weight than other sources? Therefore, is or isnt the example with Paul an indication that reality might be more complicated than how we like to describe it?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74457
06/04/06 09:08 AM
06/04/06 09:08 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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What did God give to the formed doll of dust at creation? His spirit or man’s spirit that makes the formed doll becomes a living man?
I disagree with you John if it is man’s spirit given to Adam that made him alive, it is God’s spirit that made him alive and continue to live.
Clearly the bible said: Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
It is not said: “When you send their spirit they are created…”
But I have read in the Scripture about man’s spirit, as follows:
1 Corinthians 2: 10, 11 - But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him?
This man’s spirit is his conscience, his strength of mind, his will, his character, it impart no life. A man might lost his will, his conscience but remain alive. What impart life is the Spirit of God, and that was what given to a formed doll of dust and clay at creation that made it becomes a man of blood and flesh. This spirit of man when influenced by the Spirit of God recognized the truth of the gospel of Christ and if he let the Spirit of God take the control of his mind, he would live and walk in the Spirit.
So, when Adam became a living soul, his spirit becomes alive for his spirit is his conscience, but as long as a man lives, the Spirit of God remained within him, without the Spirit of God there is no life, not only spiritual death but a death body.
Quote.
Man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. We continue living because God created us so as to have temporal life in the body and eternal life in the spirit. In sin the spirit of man transgresses against eternal life, and thus spiritual life is lost to death, and man continues to exist in a carnal state for a temporary time.
Unquote.
What happen then if God didn’t guard they way to the tree of life after Adam sinned, would he be an eternal sinner while spiritually death? This would not be the case as according to your view, the body doesn’t agree with the spirit, right? A death spirit would result in a death body sooner or later.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74458
06/04/06 01:29 PM
06/04/06 01:29 PM
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But God did do things as a result of their choice.
1 - He removed them from the Garden of Eden.
2 - He barred their way to the Tree of Life, thus cutting off their only means of living forever without experiencing the first death, a result of the sin of disobedience.
3 - God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by the light of His glory, with the exception of those willing to enter into the Ark of safety.
4 - God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah by fire and brimstone, not by the light of His glory.
5 - Christ, the Son of God, will slay the wicked at His Second Coming, from which they will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years, which we refer to as the Millenium.
6 - Christ, the Son of God, will consume the wicked in the Lake of Fire, until there is left neither root nor branch, which is the Second Death at the end of the same 1,000 years.
As to the cause of death, the first Adam and fallen humanity, by their acts of disobedience, caused God to react by bringing the penalty of the first death upon them, and both the devil, his fallen angels, and fallen unrepentant humanity will one day cause God to cast them all alive into the Lake of Fire and consume them completely, from which there will be no resurrection, the final and complete Second Death.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74459
06/04/06 01:43 PM
06/04/06 01:43 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
JS: I disagree with you John if it is man’s spirit given to Adam that made him alive, it is God’s spirit that made him alive and continue to live.
I agree that the spirit which man received came from God; that life is from God. What you do not seem to be making a difference is that God created actually something other than “body”; for an extension of himself; his spirit. If that were the case, could there have been sin? Does God’s spirit sin?
Quote:
This man’s spirit is his conscience, his strength of mind, his will, his character, it impart no life.
I do not disagree that these are definitely very meaningful aspects of man’s spirit. That man’s spirit does not impart life, you deduce from the sinful state of man. On the other hand to not be in the sinful state is to be in fellowship with God’s spirit, which is eternal life.
Quote:
What happen then if God didn’t guard they way to the tree of life after Adam sinned, would he be an eternal sinner while spiritually death? This would not be the case as according to your view, the body doesn’t agree with the spirit, right? A death spirit would result in a death body sooner or later.
To eat from the tree of life, would temporarily repair the physical damage that sin has done, it would not have been enough for man to eat once; he would need to continue eating throughout the future. This nevertheless would not prevent him from being murdered by his fellow sinner.
A death spirit would result in a dead body much sooner than thought were it not that God stepped in by his spirit to strive with man.
The matter here that I am trying to express is that the concept of physical eternal life is erroneous. That the only eternal life there is to be had is in the spirit. Those that have the eternal life in the spirit will have the right to the tree of life on an ongoing basis.
Christ said: Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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