Well stated, Daryl. I completely agree.

Tom, as I said more than once, I think the Adventist position on the nature of man may lack some depth. What about the points I made in support of that? Do you have any other comments?

Your quote is true. But as John pointed out, while the brain is where the memory is recorded physically, the brain, the mind and the spirit of man are not identical. So your quote by Ellen White needs to be interpreted in it's context and in light of the fact that the electical circuitry and electo-chemical aspect of our thinking process is part of the story. But just as genetics do not account in a complete way for our spiritual nature neither do physical thinking processes account for to the spirit of man. Isn't it the spirit of man, the will of the person, not the brain, that creates, drives and guides his thought?

My reason for the thoughts I posted above on the nature of man and his spirit in this thread is to address some of Tom's ideas on the role of sin as being the determining factor. I said sin is what kills, but it is sin against a person, God, and it's always God who decides when a person's probation closes. This is the main objection I have Tom with you're view; the implication that the process of sin is determinative rather than a loving God who lengthens our days and the days of the wicked and when our time is fulfilled ends them.

‘Teach us to number our days . .’ God has numbered them already like he has our hairs. Sin does not determine their length. Sin only determines our mortality and only within the will of God. In the same way, God’s together with the saints’ will also determines the final punishment at the second death. It is true that the penalty in the final punishment of sin is proportional to the guilt of the individual, but if it was only a natural process the scripture would not suggest that saint will judge men and angels – it would say instead that they will simply be spectators of a natural process.

And so I’ve commented on the spirit of man. The Bible presents God as the God of spirits, fallen and unfallen. He is Lord of Hosts, that is to say, Hosts of spirits. He is creator of all living things, but He is not the God of trees and plants. He is only the creator of these. However, He is God of intelligent spirits. Sin is only a state of rebellion of the spirit resulting in death, but God is the one who sets the limits of time for each spirit, and who extends mercy and who limits the course of sin.

I keep returning to the theme of justice and how your view, in taking the control out of God's hand and attributing death to a process, presents an unbalanced and unloving view of God.

I think of James the Just. What picture do you have of James when you hear that title? Would it be any less true to call God ‘the just’? How can God be a just judge in your view? He does not judge according to you does he? If so how?

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God [not sin] shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

Daryl, you've mixed a bunch of things together, without any purpose, other than they are all negative things(?). That is, your point is that God did things to punish man because of His sin? Because He doesn't like sin? It wouldn't be enough to all man to suffer the consequence of sin itself, because sin is harmless?

I'm just trying to guess why you put all these negative things together. I'm curious why you didn't mention any of the positive things God did, such as giving His Son to save the world.

I'll cover every other point, because to cover every point would make for a long post.

"1 - He removed them from the Garden of Eden."

He didn't want to immortalize their sin, so He denied them access to the tree of life. They would suffer long enough, thanks to sin. Death would come as a sweet relief. God is not one to prolong misery.

"3 God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by the light of His glory, with the exception of those willing to enter into the Ark of safety."

This seems like faulty logic to me. It appears you are arguing that because God did not destroy man with the light of His glory here, then this can't every happen. One could just as easily say, "God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by fire" to the same effect. Would a valid conclusion be that God will never destroy man by fire? I doubt you would agree with that.

Nevertheless, the Spirit of Prophecy states at least three times that God will destroy man by His glory, so this cannot be denied, can it?

Quote:

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 108)

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"5 - Christ, the Son of God, will slay the wicked at His Second Coming, from which they will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years, which we refer to as the Millenium."

According to the Spirit of Prophecy:

Quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

This is speaking specifically of the destruction of the wicked. "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

I'll respond to the other points if you're interested.

Did you have a chance to read the Ty Gibson comments? I would interested in your response to them. I think he does a good job explaining the principles I've been trying to share.

Tom, as I said more than once, I think the Adventist position on the nature of man may lack some depth. What about the points I made in support of that? Do you have any other comments?

I think I commented at least twice. Perhaps if you reiterate a point I could comment so more, if you feel the previous comments were inadequate.

Your quote is true. But as John pointed out, while the brain is where the memory is recorded physically, the brain, the mind and the spirit of man are not identical. So your quote by Ellen White needs to be interpreted in it's context and in light of the fact that the electical circuitry and electo-chemical aspect of our thinking process is part of the story. But just as genetics do not account in a complete way for our spiritual nature neither do physical thinking processes account for to the spirit of man. Isn't it the spirit of man, the will of the person, not the brain, that creates, drives and guides his thought?

The brain is a physical thing, which makes it possible for man to think. The mind has to do with man's thought. The spirit of a subset of the mind. It is the part of the mind which has to do with spiritual things. There is nothing spiritual which does not involve the mind. That's what I believe. I think you would be hard-pressed to demonstrate this is not true. If it were true, we would have an arbitrary, mystery religion, wouldn't we? One where reason, choice and faith are by-passed? That's how it seems to me.

Regarding the EGW quote, it says that the only way heaven can communicate with man is through the brain. That seems to me that it would settle the issue. Whatever might be happening outside the brain is not communication. If the vision was a form of communication, she must have received it through the nerves of her brain, to use her words. This is sound logic, isn't it?

My reason for the thoughts I posted above on the nature of man and his spirit in this thread is to address some of Tom's ideas on the role of sin as being the determining factor. I said sin is what kills, but it is sin against a person, God, and it's always God who decides when a person's probation closes. This is the main objection I have Tom with you're view; the implication that the process of sin is determinative rather than a loving God who lengthens our days and the days of the wicked and when our time is fulfilled ends them.

This sounds like Calvinism, of fatalism, to me.

‘Teach us to number our days . .’ God has numbered them already like he has our hairs. Sin does not determine their length. Sin only determines our mortality and only within the will of God. In the same way, God’s together with the saints’ will also determines the final punishment at the second death.

The wicked suffer in proportion to their sin. They have determined their punishment. It is not arbitrary. God's knows how much the wicked will suffer, and the righteous will review what God discloses, and God's judgment will be vindicated. God knows the end from the beginning. He does not impose suffering upon others for punishment or any other reason. Suffering, misery, and death are the results of sin alone. God is good, and does only good. That is His nature, His character. What God is like and does was perfectly revealed by His Son. As the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, "ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son." God will act no differently than Jesus did. He can't, because Jesus was the perfect revelation of the Father's character.

It is true that the penalty in the final punishment of sin is proportional to the guilt of the individual, but if it was only a natural process the scripture would not suggest that saint will judge men and angels – it would say instead that they will simply be spectators of a natural process.

The judging is not arbitrary or imposed. It's not like man's judgment, in a court of law here. Sin really is bad. It really does cause death.

And so I’ve commented on the spirit of man. The Bible presents God as the God of spirits, fallen and unfallen. He is Lord of Hosts, that is to say, Hosts of spirits. He is creator of all living things, but He is not the God of trees and plants. He is only the creator of these. However, He is God of intelligent spirits. Sin is only a state of rebellion of the spirit resulting in death, but God is the one who sets the limits of time for each spirit, and who extends mercy and who limits the course of sin.

I keep returning to the theme of justice and how your view, in taking the control out of God's hand and attributing death to a process, presents an unbalanced and unloving view of God.

I don't see how God arbitrarily imposing His will with no regard for the choices of His children would be balanced or loving. Again, this sounds like Calvinism to me.

I think of James the Just. What picture do you have of James when you hear that title? Would it be any less true to call God ‘the just’? How can God be a just judge in your view? He does not judge according to you does he? If so how?

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God [not sin] shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

Jesus said, "The Father will judge no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son." and then said "I will judge no one" more than once. Our judgment is not something which God arbitrarily imposes upon us, but is determined by our own choices.

Ty Gibson addressed this in detail in the quotes I provided. I would appreciate your comments on them.

Please Tom, I'd prefer you answered the questions in your own words this time rather than quoting Gibson. It will help clarify your position which is more important here than understanding what Gibson is saying.

It is not arbitrary to weigh a course of action and determine where the guilt lies and to apportion the penalty. That is justice. Regarding man's justice, the Bible says earthly rules are divinely set in office to punish evil. You have an unfortunate view of punishment. The fact that God personally disciplines us is used by the holy writer to establish the love of God. He points out that God, like a loving parent, not merely sin, disciplines us. Does God, Tom, intervene personally in your life to correct you? Or does He only allow the sins you've committed to catch up to you and take their course? Is he personally involved in shaping your character, or is he bound by a process so that he cannot personally put his hand on your shoulder and say, though circumstances, 'Why are you grieving my Spirit on this issue?'

If God can be involved personally like I’ve suggested, then who is it that ultimately determines our probationary period – is it sin or God? How can we say sin takes it's course without pushing a personal, loving God out of the picture. Sin is what kills, but God is personally involved at every step, limiting and overruling the results of sin and of ultimately determining our probationary period. Please, Tom, I’d like direct responses.

Quote # 1.
I agree that the spirit which man received came from God; that life is from God. What you do not seem to be making a difference is that God created actually something other than “body”; for an extension of himself; his spirit. If that were the case, could there have been sin? Does God’s spirit sin?

Quote # 2
I have also answered this to JS when he said "Life is: Body + the Spirit of God." that: That would be God living in his own body, not man. In order for man to be a person, he must have his own spirit. God gave man spirit at creation; that was man’s spirit.

Unquote.

Really? Is there an independent “spirit” in us apart from God Spirit and apart from our body? Life according to you is: our body + our spirit.

According to me, what our “spirit” is; is our conscience, the power of our mind, and the Spirit of God is his power of life which makes us a living soul. There is a distinction between them, which makes our spirit could not be an extension of God’s Spirit.

What is enmity against God? Our carnal mind (Romans 8:7). Where does sin reside? In our mind (Romans 8:20, 23).

So, without an independent “spirit” in us, which is the extension of God’s spirit, as you call that, we still might sin (in the mind) and not God’s Spirit that sins and still be alive in our own body for the Spirit of God imparts life.

1 Corinthians 2:11 said that only our “spirit” knows the things of us, since the “spirit” is our conscience, surely it knows everything about us but know nothing about God, except the Spirit of God.

When Adam sinned, did God Spirit left Adam’s body or does it remain in Adam’s body and his off springs all of this time? If God Spirit left us, how could we live?

Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.”
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
The Scripture answer it: Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”

I didn’t see any other independent “thing” in us, such as our own spirit, what I see and understand we are a living soul because we have the Spirit of God in us, which is our breath of life. Taking it away, we died.

Sorry John, I still didn’t quite understand your view, please back it up with Scripture to understand where it’s originated.

In His love

James S

Hmm, so far, till now, we still could not come to one view regarding death, who or what did it to us? The cause of it, I think, we all agree is sin. But most of us think that sin is an indirect cause of our death and not the cause of it self. Most of us still think that the caused of our death (1st death and 2nd death) is the involvement of God in our life and death, but even though it is a part of God’s act, we didn’t picture Him as a cruel and savage God, because death is what we choose, God OTH wants us a life and have eternal life and has done the most sacrifice to give us our life back through the life and death of His only begotten Son “Jesus Christ.”

His act against us and sin is just the right way; to eliminate sin and sinners forever from his universe he must use death as a means. But, since the 1st day of the life of our first parents, they had been warned against death, if they choose their own way. So, what is wrong with that?

In His love

James S