And to make LEGAL the death against us, he gave us his Law, which brought all men under condemnation, for no one might be justified before Him by their obedience to the law.

In His love

James S

Hmm, so far, till now, we still could not come to one view regarding death, who or what did it to us? The cause of it, I think, we all agree is sin. But most of us think that sin is an indirect cause of our death and not the cause of it self. Most of us still think that the caused of our death (1st death and 2nd death) is the involvement of God in our life and death, but even though it is a part of God’s act, we didn’t picture Him as a cruel and savage God, because death is what we choose, God OTH wants us a life and have eternal life and has done the most sacrifice to give us our life back through the life and death of His only begotten Son “Jesus Christ.”

This is an excellent point you're bringing ub James. Most people indeed, as you point out, do not see any connection between sin and death. I'm going to quote from the Ty Gibson quotation on the other thread:

Punishment is organic to sin itself…

It is commonly thought that the connection between sin and death is imply that if we don’t repent of our sins God will kill us. Often no actual, intrinsic relationship is discerned between sin and death. But even a casual consideration of Scripture on this point persuades us otherwise. Notice just these few examples (quotes Gal. 6:7, 8; Rom. 6:16, 21-23; Rom. 8:6; Rom. 8:13; Prov. 8:36; James 1:15)

Most of these Scriptures have already been brought up. One or two might not have been, so you might wish to look them up. Continuing from Ty:

Quote:

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God does not threaten, “If you keep sinning, I will kill you.” Rather, He warns, “If you continue in sin, you will die,” for “sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” And so He pleads, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die …? (Ezek. 33:11). We’re caught off guard by a question like this from God. We are more inclined to ask Him, “Why do You kill?” But He points to our sin and asks us, “Why do you choose death?”

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Is sin something harmful, something lethal, from which God tries to save us? Or is sin in reality harmless, except for the fact that God punishes it? This is an important question to consider, as it leads us to quite different conceptions of God's character and in His role in the Plan of Salvation, as well as what the Plan of Salvation is all about. What is it that is deadly, sin or God?

His act against us and sin is just the right way; to eliminate sin and sinners forever from his universe he must use death as a means.

This would contradict the Scriptural teaching that sin causes death. God doesn't use death as a means to punish death, but sin results in death. God attemtps to save us from death by saving us from sin. Sin and death cannot be separated. Look at Christ. Even when He became sin, He tasted death.

But, since the 1st day of the life of our first parents, they had been warned against death, if they choose their own way. So, what is wrong with that?

God warned them not to sin because if they sinned they would die. There's nothing wrong with this.

The record of wrongs is speaking in the sense of holding something against someone. Isn't that obvious?

What do you think 1 Cor. 13:5 means?

James, please notice that most SDAs believe God punishes and destroys the wicked in the lake of fire because they refused to be saved. Such rejection is high treason and worthy of extreme measures. Here is how Jesus views it:

Hebrews
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Mark
9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. I Cor.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree with you Tom. We agree sin is bad and that the sting of sin is death. Sin is bad and has it's effect because of the law. The law is where sin obtains its strength. There are legal implications to sin in its definition. These aren't arbitary any more than the law of God is arbitary. Thomas is right that you're view also has implications for the Investigative Judgement, but that's another topic.

Quote.
Death is a consequence of sin, not the law. Even without the law sin would still be deadly, because sin is selfishness, and selfishness cannot result in anything but misery, pain, and death.
Unquote.

Sure, I did not say that the law become death to us, it will be against Romans 7:12, 13. What I have in mind is that without the law, God has no legal right to execute the death upon men. The Law gave the legal right to God because under the law, no man is righteous.

Romans 5:13, 14 (NIV)
For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

What do you think Paul had in mind when writing this?

Quote.
The Scriptures tells us what the purpose of the law was. It was added because of transgression, for the purpose of leading us to Christ, in order that we might repent and be saved from sin, which causes death. See Galatians 3, around vs. 16 and following
Unquote.

But, I think that the purpose of the law given to men is also to justify God’s action in executing death upon sinners and justifying Christ as a righteous person that succeed in keeping the law perfectly, proving that he is God and got his reward: life after death. Otherwise, God lied.

Without a written law given at Sinai, God has no legal right to execute death upon sinners, Christ would come unknown and sin is not imputed and death is illegal.

In His love

James S.

We agree sin is bad and that the sting of sin is death. Sin is bad and has it's effect because of the law. The law is where sin obtains its strength. There are legal implications to sin in its definition. These aren't arbitary any more than the law of God is arbitary....

That's right, the legal implcations aren't arbitrary! They're real.

The law of God defines the only way to have peace, health, happniess or life. This law is a law of love. Just as Jesus said, it's more blessed to give than to receive. The law of self-sacrificing love is that if this defines your character, you will live.

On the other hand, if you live selfishly, you will die. Not because God will kill you, but because the principle of selfishness cannot support life. It just can't. It's impossible. Selfishness can only lead to misery, pain and death. And this isn't because of God.

Take a practical example. In your own life, have you not noticed that when you act selfishly you feel bad? You don't have peace? There are negative ramications? Do you think this is because of God, that He is punishing you? Or is it because selfishness is innately, organically, in its essence, bad?

Thomas is right that you're view also has implications for the Investigative Judgement, but that's another topic.

Of course it has implications regarding the Investigative Judgement. The Atonement, Invesitigative Judgement, Executive Judgement, everything involving the Great Controversy is impacted by whether we perceive that there is an organic relationship, to use Ty Gibson's term, between sin and death.

If we do not perceive that this relationship is direct, that you can't have one without the other, both come in one package, then our views of the Atonement, Investigative Judgment, Executive Judgment, etc. will of necessity have an arbitrary element in them. This can't help but be the case.

This is exactly the point Ty Gibson is making. For your convenience, I'll requote his argument here:

There are a number of serious problems with the three-party picture, foremost of which is that it makes no legal or moral sense for an innocent third-party victim to suffer the penalty for the wrongdoer. If such an arrangement could actually satisfy God, then we would be forced to conclude that His law and His wrath are irrational and arbitrary, meaning there is no actual relationship between law and sin and death. If God’s wrath can be appeased by venting rage on an innocent third party, then it follows that there is no real problem with sin other than the fact that God doesn’t want us doing it: His law is arbitrary. Moreover, since we have failed to meet His arbitrary demands, we had better suffer ourselves or find a whipping boy to suffer in our place: His wrath is arbitrary.

Did the Father cause the suffering and death of Christ?

Yes and no!

Yes, if we mean He delivered Him over to suffering and death according to His own wise purpose of grace. Yes, if we mean that the Father gave up His Son to experience the tormenting psychological agony of our guilt.

No, if we mean He acted as an arbitrary source of pain and death, as the tormentor and executioner of His Son. No, if we mean that the Father assumed a position of vicious hostility toward His Son. Christ suffered and died at *our* hands, under the burden of *our* sin, by the gracious, self-sacrificing purpose of the Father….

I think I'll stop here and ask you if you think what Ty is arguing here makes any sense.

I think you're correct, MM, that most Adventists believe as you stated. However, the view I've been presenting regarding the lake of fire, is by no means new, and a sizeable minority holds to it, as Kevin H. has documented. For over a hundred years Adventists have been debating the nature of the fire that will destroy the wicked.

There are a number of statements from the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture which indicate that God is the fire which will destroy the wicked. For example, the Spirit of Prophecy states several times that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, and that because of their sin God's presence will become a consuming fire to them. Isaiah asks the question, "Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings?" answering it that the righteous can. There are a number of Scriptures which present God as fire, several of which Ellen White quoted when she made the point herself that the wicked would be destroyed by the glory of God in DA 108.

I think this issue is similar to another one I had to dealt with when I was becoming an Adventist, which was there were a number of texts which seemed to indicate that the wicked would suffer forever in hell, and other which gave a different picture. I had to compare Scripture with Scripture, and consider the implications of the two views, one of the chief of which is what it tells us about God's character.

Each one will have to consider the evidence and decide which view best fits with Scripture.