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Death: Who or what caused it?
#74430
05/26/06 06:37 AM
05/26/06 06:37 AM
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OP
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Jakarta, Indonesia
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I want to continue with my book, but I couldn’t because I still could not decide which view I must use in regard of the death that happens to men.
I am still confuse which one of these views is right according to the Scripture, maybe we can discuss it more deeper to determine the correct one, especially if it effects our view of God.
I do not want to get a wrong picture of God, because “knowing God is eternal life”, having a wrong picture of God character might indicate WE DON’T KNOW GOD, AND THUS HAVE NOT ETERNAL LIFE.
So, I summarize these three views claimed by Tom Ewall and Mountain Man and my self, each could support their view with the Scripture and SOP quotes. Regarding Tom and M.M.views we have enough of their contradiction in some of the topics here in this forum.
Tom’s view (in my own words):
Sin causes death,.
We fall down from a 10 story building and died because there is a law of gravity that pull us down to earth. So is sin, it causes our death, it pulls the life out of us.
M.M. view (in my own word):
We died the 1st death because we no longer eat the fruit of life and we die the 2nd death because God sent brimstone and fire to burn sinners to death.
My own view:
We died the 1st death because we inherit Adam’s death body; the seed of death was passed on to us through multiplication of the flesh.
We died the 2nd death because it is God responsibility to annihilate sin. God could not let sin and sinners live forever side by side with righteousness and holiness. By blocking man to continue eat the fruit of life He already shown his concern against sin. And at the end of time where every one has chosen whom they serve and what they sow, God would wipe out sin and sinners forever from his universe without being blamed as cruel, savage or bad because he has proven his love before hand. His act of wiping sinners and sin from his universe would get appreciation from all his creations and not insult.
How did God wipe sinners forever? As the Scripture said; Fire from heaven (God) will burn all those sinners till nothing left.
I am happy to have your comment and view regarding this topic, helping me to decide the best and the truth.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74431
05/26/06 06:55 PM
05/26/06 06:55 PM
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Regarding the first death, Paul tells us, "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men."
Regarding the second, John tells us "He that has the Son has life. He that has not the Son, has not life." Also "He that believes in Me shall never die."
Isaiah says: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly." (Isa. 33:14, 15)
Only those who have believed in Jesus Christ will be able to bear the revealed glory of God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74432
05/27/06 04:28 AM
05/27/06 04:28 AM
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OP
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I think I must posted another view than the three views already above.
Quoted from Darius post Mon May 08 2006 01:21 PM
Mortality does not mean death, it means subject to death. The Creator alone is not subject to death. We must be careful with the idea that death is inherent to sin. Fruitflies always had a limited lifespan. LIfe has always been comprised of cycles. Sperm died everytime Adam knew his wife. Death is a part of life.
Unquote.
View #4. Death is a part of life.
If I may interpret this: When God created Adam's and he becomes alife but a mortal person subject to death, in him the seed of death has been implanted.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74433
05/27/06 04:32 AM
05/27/06 04:32 AM
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OP
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Tom, your view even it is back up by the Scripture and SOP, but I see some weakness in it, i.e.:
1. It was Adam that sinned and he must die. His offspring inherits his death body, they died because Adam died. The 1st death that happens to mankind is the death that they inherit from Adam through multiplication of the flesh because they were born in the image of Adam after he sinned and expelled from Eden and must die.
We died the 1st death because God takes away our life, he takes away His Spirit
How life is created in Adam?
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.” – Genesis 2:7
So, the breath of life is “the Source of our life”, without it we are back into dust of the ground. And we knew that “the breath of life” is the Spirit of God.
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”
Life is the body + the Spirit of God that gives life, death is the body without the spirit of God.
What happen with a death man? “And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” – Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Look, these verses is telling us about the process of 1st life and 1st death.
2. Why Satan can attend a congregation in heaven and stand before God and did not die?
If sin that caused death and no one that sin could stand before God because his glory would consume the sinner, why then, Satan came to the congregation held in heaven (Job 16,7) and not die?
I think, looking from this verse, sin is not that caused death, otherwise, Satan would die instantly when he appeared in front of God’s glory.
Can you defend your view against this.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74434
05/27/06 04:53 AM
05/27/06 04:53 AM
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OP
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Another weakness if sin is the direct cause of a man’s death.
Romans 5:12 – Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Romans 5:14 – Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that has to come.
Unborn babies and just born babies died in thousands every day around the world even thought they didn’t know what sin is and haven’t yet transgress any law as Adam did, but nevertheless they died.
Is sin the direct cause of their death? I think no, because they haven’t make any sin. Sin is the indirect cause of the death of men.
What caused their death?
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74435
05/27/06 05:41 AM
05/27/06 05:41 AM
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It was Adam's sin which resulted in the death of all. That's what Romans 5:12 says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men." Adam sinned. By him, death entered into the world, and passed to all men. The counsel that Satan attended in Job 1:6 just says the sons of God presented themselves before the Lord. It doesn't say where they were. It seems clear to me that Satan was not appearing before the unfettered glory of God, because he could not have born that. As Isa. 33:14, 15 says: Quote:
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly.
Satan can't stand being near God. That's why he left heaven (Jude 1:6).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74436
05/28/06 07:30 AM
05/28/06 07:30 AM
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OP
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Tom.
I agree that because Adam sinned, he must die. But sin, according to me is the indirect cause of human death, not the direct cause.
A man died when a knife is stabbed in his heart, when a bullet is shot through his brain and when he is his by a train. The knife, the bullet and the train is the direct cause of the death of this man, and not his sin. That what I want to make clear!
If sin is the direct cause of human death, then he would not die by these three means that struck him, unless Satan wants him die, because Satan is his master.
And if sin is the direct cause of man’s death, as long a man lives by faith and is righteous, Satan would not kill him, he would wait till the man sinned and immediately kill him. And Satan would not let a sinner live long but would kill him right away, otherwise this man might get the opportunity to repent. That makes sense right?
Thus, your view that sin is the caused of death, is right but not as the direct cause of death it self but as an indirect cause. What I asked in this topic, what is the direct cause of human death? Is it God that draws his Spirit, is it Satan that kill us, or is it because of other means?
One other weakness of your view is if a sinner is shot or stabbed at the heart, he must surely die, but some times a miracle happened, he didn’t die. Why? Because God spare his life? If so is the case, then really sin is not the cause of death.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74437
05/28/06 04:23 PM
05/28/06 04:23 PM
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I see here confusion between spiritual death and physical death. These two are distinctly different and not to be confused. So I will try expressing it in a different way to try to break out of the mold of thought.
Sin causes spiritual death instantly and directly. Sin is spiritual death, and spiritual death is sin. Sin is spiritual and not physical. The life of the body was made on a different level and has always (before or after sin) been of a temporary nature. In other words the body was never made to have life in itself of itself.
Once man sinned he lost spiritual life and became carnal; that is, he now lives by the flesh (or the body). This is where many are confusing life and existence and wondering why they are still around when they should be dead, or thinking that God has to kill them (the body) in order for them to die.
So first of all, salvation has to do with passing from death to life; bringing life back to the spirit, by being born again of the spirit. It comes by birth; spiritual birth. While in creation, man received life of the spirit by creation; in salvation man is born to life of spirit. This is why in the primary aspect of salvation from sin, you do not see God doing anything to the body, but it all happens in the spirit. So the issue of sin and salvation has to do with the life of the spirit, and not of the body. Nevertheless sin has also an effect on the body, because the body was never made to continue existing without the life of the spirit.
In God’s kingdom the spirit and the body are in agreement. The current existence therefore is unnatural, because it is not in agreement with the spirit, and exists by God’s intervention (striving of his spirit with man) called mercy and grace, giving us ‘time’ so that we may be saved. The length of time is immaterial. The thief on the cross died, though he was saved.
The secondary aspect of salvation is the restoration of the physical side to the agreement of the spirit. Now this should make one realize that, if they are dead in spirit, what will happen when God restores the body to agreement with spirit. On the other hand it is also the blessed looking forward to of those who live by the spirit. So what is it that kills the lost, when God restores the agreement of the body to the spirit? Is it God killing them, or is it the dead state of their spirit which is sin?
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74438
05/28/06 09:10 PM
05/28/06 09:10 PM
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What warning did God give Adam, and Adam passed on to Eve, assuming that Eve didn't also hear it directly from God herself? To answer this question we must first look at the creation of man, namely Adam. Quote:
Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Adam became a living soul. Thus began the life of Adam, which should have been eternal life. Correct?
Now to the warning, or the conditional of eternal life.
Quote:
Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The warning? Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The consequence of not heeding the warning? If you eat of it, in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.
Both Adam and Eve didn't heed the warning, therefore, what happened next?
Quote:
Gen. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen. 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen. 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Amongst other things, Adam was told that he would eventually die a physical death as a consequence of not heeding the warning. This, of course, also happened to Eve and their children, all as a consequence of Adam and Eve not heeding the warning.
There's another interesting event.
Quote:
Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Where did the coats of skins come from? The logical conclusion is that God killed the animals from which was taken the coats of skins that were given to Adam and Eve for clothing, for they now needed to be clothed, another consequence of not heeding the warning.
What else happened in order that their lives not continue eternally?
Quote:
Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Gen. 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
God drove them out of the Garden of Eden and placed angels to keep them from entering and eating from the Tree of Life.
These were all acts on God's part, therefore, it would seem logical to say that God caused death as a result of their not heeding His warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74439
05/28/06 11:47 PM
05/28/06 11:47 PM
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Quote:
These were all acts on God's part, therefore, it would seem logical to say that God caused death as a result of their not heeding His warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Daryl, these were not all acts of God, and therefore it is not logical to conclude that God caused death as a result of their sin.
God did not sin, man did. God did not eat of the tree, man did. God warned them what would happen if they ate of the tree, not what he would do if they ate of the tree. What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74440
05/29/06 01:08 AM
05/29/06 01:08 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Quote:
What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.
This is very important for us to understand. It makes a profound difference whether we view God as One to fear because He will kill us if we do not do what He says, or as One who saves us from sin.
What is it that is deadly, that we need to be saved from? Is it sin, or God?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74441
05/29/06 01:12 AM
05/29/06 01:12 AM
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Another way to look at this is to consider what eternal life is. Eternal life is not dealing with duration of life. That is, it does not mean a physical life which never ends. It is dealing with a quality of life, what John is calling spiritual life.
Jesus said, "To know God is life eternal." When Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, they chose not to know Him. Since knowing God is eternal life, not knowing God is eternal death. It's that simple. In order that we might life, God sent His Son, that we might know Him. Thus it is that we read both in the Scriptures, in John 17, and in the Spirit of Prophecy (ST 1/20/90) that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us. Knowing God solved the sin problem.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74442
05/29/06 06:28 PM
05/29/06 06:28 PM
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Quote:
What is it that is deadly, that we need to be saved from? Is it sin, or God?
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74443
05/30/06 05:23 AM
05/30/06 05:23 AM
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OP
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John.
I try to summarize your view, correct me if I’m wrong.
Sin is spiritual death and the body was not created to have life in it self, when spirit is death, body must die too. When man sinned, he lost spiritual life and became carnal, he must die if God not intervene. Adam would die instantly, but the plan of salvation has prolonged man’s life.
Salvation then has to do with two aspects:
1. Bringing life back to the spirit
2. Restoration of the body to the agreement of the spirit.
Quoting 2 verses of the Scripture to sustain your view that spiritual death (sin) is the caused of human death.
I would comment on your view.
1. According to the Scripture: Life is the body + the Spirit of God. Death is the body – the Spirit of God
2. According to your view: Life is the body + a death spirit.
The question is: Is this death spirit still the same Spirit of God? Or is it of another spirit? Whose spirit? If it is no longer the Spirit of God, how could we continue living?
Salvation according to me is:
1. Resurrection of the death, a restored life after death.
2. Liberation of the power of sin
Is it the same as what you said?
In His love
James
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74444
05/30/06 06:02 AM
05/30/06 06:02 AM
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OP
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Quote:
What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.
This is very important for us to understand. It makes a profound difference whether we view God as One to fear because He will kill us if we do not do what He says, or as One who saves us from sin.
What is it that is deadly, that we need to be saved from? Is it sin, or God?
Unquote.
Interesting!
This death occurred because man has chosen their own will. Man could do this because God created him with the free will of choice. God, knowing man would sin and die, has prepared Christ, “who was foreordained before the foundation of the world” to save man back.
God is the creator of heaven and earth, “and without him was not anything made that was made.”
God is the Source of life, but death, where it comes from?
I think we must go to the very beginning of man creation, there we would find the true answer, and not looking in what happened to them after they sinned.
Life is : Body + the Spirit of God
Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.”
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Death is: Body – the Spirit of God.
Where goes the Spirit of God? Back to Him that has given it.
How could the Spirit go back to God? Did He take it away or does the Spirit spring out of itself from our body?
The Scripture answer it: Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”
Did God ever planned to take away his Spirit from man? I believe no, man was created with the intention to live forever even though they are mortal, or subject to die.
So, what makes it happen that death occurred to man?
Sin? Or God because man have sinned?
In His love
James S
Last edited by James Saptenno; 05/30/06 06:13 AM.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74445
05/31/06 01:51 AM
05/31/06 01:51 AM
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Ontario
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Quote:
I would comment on your view.
1. According to the Scripture: Life is the body + the Spirit of God. Death is the body – the Spirit of God
2. According to your view: Life is the body + a death spirit.
1. That would be God’s life in his body. In creation God gave life to the body and he gave man spirit, man’s spirit. Eternal life is a union of God’s spirit with man’s spirit. It is not a union of Gods body with man’s body, or a union of Gods spirit with man’s body.
2. In sin man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. Man lost spiritual life and became carnal; that is, he (his spirit) now subsists by the flesh (or the body).
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74446
05/31/06 01:56 AM
05/31/06 01:56 AM
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Quote:
The question is: Is this death spirit still the same Spirit of God? Or is it of another spirit? Whose spirit? If it is no longer the Spirit of God, how could we continue living?
Of course it is not God’s spirit; it is man’s spirit. Man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. We continue living because God created us so as to have temporal life in the body and eternal life in the spirit. In sin the spirit of man transgresses against eternal life, and thus spiritual life is lost to death, and man continues to exist in a carnal state for a temporary time.
Quote:
Salvation according to me is:
1. Resurrection of the death, a restored life after death.
2. Liberation of the power of sin
Is it the same as what you said?
No, I don’t think so. The way you said that sounds like, you will be saved and set free from sin only after the resurrection in the end. So how are you supposed to live in the meantime, so as that you will qualify for salvation in the end?
Salvation is now and in the present; the liberation from the power of sin and death, which keeps our spirit carnal. By re-establishing the union of our spirit with God’s spirit; being born of the spirit of God. So the primary and present aspect of salvation is spiritual.
The secondary and future aspect of salvation is the restoration of the physical side to the agreement of the spirit.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74447
05/31/06 03:02 AM
05/31/06 03:02 AM
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Quote:
I think we must go to the very beginning of man creation, there we would find the true answer, and not looking in what happened to them after they sinned.
Life is : Body + the Spirit of God
"Life is : Body + the Spirit of God." That would be God living in his own body, not man. In order for man to be a person, he must have his own spirit. God gave man spirit at creation; that was man’s spirit. Man could choose to be in fellowship with God’s spirit, or he could choose to separate. That was sin. But spirit cannot exist on its own, so the change that occurred is that man lost spiritual life and became carnal; his spirit now subsisted by the temporary life of the body.
From dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return.
Quote:
Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.”
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
Death is: Body – the Spirit of God.
"Death is: Body – the Spirit of God." That would be God dying.
Spiritual death is separation of our spirit from God’s spirit.
Physical death is the death of the body.
Quote:
Did God ever planned to take away his Spirit from man? I believe no,
No, God never planned and never did take his spirit away from man. Man chose to separate from God’s spirit, and live by the flesh. God’s spirit continues to strive with man to reestablish fellowship and life.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74448
06/03/06 02:59 PM
06/03/06 02:59 PM
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SDA
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Daryl wrote: These were all acts on God's part, therefore, it would seem logical to say that God caused death as a result of their not heeding His warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I agree. Jesus warned them fairly. He always keeps His promises. He never forces us.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74449
06/04/06 12:01 AM
06/04/06 12:01 AM
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I’m still thinking about your idea John that man died spiritually at the fall. Do I have that right? I was glad to see you raised the issue of the spiritual nature of man in this context because it relates to the question of the thread. Could you confirm that is what you’re saying and I’ll give that more thought.
In another thread I raised the issue of the physical and spiritual nature of man and asked if Adventism’s view that man is a combination of the breath of life or spirit of God and physical body is an adequate description of humankind.
Tom said: “There is no spiritual aspect to man which does not involve his mind. All communication between God and man happens through the mind, . . .When a person is in vision, or dreaming, their mind is active. Their spirit doesn't go anywhere. No part of the person has moved to a different location, although the mind may perceive this to be happening.”
Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds.
She says, “I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God."” {EW 39.3}
So was EGW in this other world and did her conversation with Enoch take place there or did it only take place in her brain. Since she was not breathing, how could the physical thinking processes of the brain which requires oxygen be working? God could supply the lack of oxygen miraculously, but the fact that her bodily functions were stopped suggests that her centre of thought was no longer in her brain.
Paul, speaking of his vision says; “12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” II Cor. 12
Here Paul the apostle says he is not sure himself what happened when he went into vision and was taken to paradise 14 years earlier. Isn’t it a little surprising (and instructive) that the Apostle who wrote the most profound and difficult theological statements still did not know after many visions and years of reflection whether he was both physically and spiritually in paradise. But he does seem to be sure of one thing; that is, at a minimum, he was in paradise in spirit if not physically. He deliberately leaves open the possibility that his physical body may have remained on earth while he visited paradise in spirit.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74450
06/04/06 02:02 AM
06/04/06 02:02 AM
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MM, how do you explain the fact that the animals died after man sinned? If death comes as a result of not eating from a tree, why didn't the animals die earlier, since they never ate from the tree of life? Why did they die afterwards? The following statements make clear that sin results in death: Quote:
The soul that sins shall die. (Exek 18:20)
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Sin pays its wages - death. (Rom. 6:23 GNB)
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Death gets its power to hurt from sin. (1 Cor. 15:16 GNB)
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Sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:15 GNB)
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Sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men. (Romans 5:12)
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Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.(DA 764)
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We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. (FILB 84)
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Show that it was sin which marred God's perfect work; that thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God. (FILB 274)
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In all His dealings with His creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. (God's Amazing Grace 73)
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But in all His dealings with his creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. (PP 522)
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The sin of man has brought the sure result,--decay, deformity, and death. (1SDABC 1085)
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Adam and Eve persuaded themselves that in so small a matter as eating of the forbidden fruit, there could not result such terrible consequences as God had declared. But this small matter was sin, the transgression of God's immutable and holy law, and it opened the floodgates of death and untold woe upon our world. . . . Let us not esteem sin as a trivial thing. (That I May Know Him 14)
I can hardly think of a truth more conclusively established by inspiration that sin results in death. Satan denied this, but there is no need for us to believe him. He is just trying to avoid responsibility for his own work, and to deceive us as to the nature of sin:
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It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74451
06/04/06 03:03 AM
06/04/06 03:03 AM
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Read my post again and you will see that I separated man's act, or choice, from God's response to man's act, or choice.
What God did, as a result of man's disobedience, by not heeding the warning, which, of course, was man's choice, were all acts of God.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74452
06/04/06 03:40 AM
06/04/06 03:40 AM
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Yes Daryl, I made that difference, and that was the point:
God did not sin, man did. God did not eat of the tree, man did. God warned them what would happen if they ate of the tree, not what he would do if they ate of the tree.
What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74453
06/04/06 04:06 AM
06/04/06 04:06 AM
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Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds. I got this idea from the Spirit of Prophecy:Quote:
The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.--2T 347 (1870). {1MCP 73.1}
It took me awhile to find this. I read it around 30 years ago, but it made an impression on me (obvsiously, since I remembered it after 30 years). I was a non-Adventist Christian before becoming an Adventist, and did not realize that all communication between man and God occurred through the brain.
Regarding your questioning as to whether Paul's spirit could exist apart from the body, I'm surprised an Adventist would suggest this, since non-SDA's use this as an argument that Advenist theology regarding the nature of man is incorrect. Here is a response from the BRI which argues against the idea that Paul is suggesting that the spirit can exist apart from the body: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/bodycheck.htm
The fact that you even suggest such a possibility indicates either one of the following two possibilities is the case:
1.You are not aware of what Adventist theology is on this subject. That is, you do not know that SDA's do no believe the spirit can exist apart from the body.
2.You are aware of this, but are not sure that it is correct.
I would be interested in knowing which of these two is the case.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74454
06/04/06 04:22 AM
06/04/06 04:22 AM
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What God did, as a result of man's disobedience, by not heeding the warning, which, of course, was man's choice, were all acts of God.
What is it that God did? John is exactly right in pointing out that what God did as a result of man's sin, which could only result in death, was to provide a way by which man might be healed.
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Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (2SM 288)
All the woe that man knows comes to us through sin and Satan. God is not responsible for any of it. He never planted the seed of death in the system. Death comes from sin alone, and, indeed, cannot be separated from it. Not only death, but every other evil thing, or to put it another way, every thing which God did not create originally or was not in existence before sin, such as lying, violence, killing and so forth, results from sin, and not from God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74455
06/04/06 05:26 AM
06/04/06 05:26 AM
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I’m still thinking about your idea John that man died spiritually at the fall. Do I have that right? I was glad to see you raised the issue of the spiritual nature of man in this context because it relates to the question of the thread. Could you confirm that is what you’re saying and I’ll give that more thought.
Here is my statement:
In sin man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. Man lost spiritual life and became carnal; that is, he (his spirit) now subsists by the flesh (or the body).
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In another thread I raised the issue of the physical and spiritual nature of man and asked if Adventism’s view that man is a combination of the breath of life or spirit of God and physical body is an adequate description of humankind.
I have also answered this to JS when he said "Life is: Body + the Spirit of God." that: That would be God living in his own body, not man. In order for man to be a person, he must have his own spirit. God gave man spirit at creation; that was man’s spirit.
Also I have seen some who think that life is only physical (breath + body). That the sum of the breath + body = a soul. That may be some form of life, but it is not “man”, much less “man-in the image of God”.
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Tom said: “There is no spiritual aspect to man which does not involve his mind. All communication between God and man happens through the mind, . . .When a person is in vision, or dreaming, their mind is active. Their spirit doesn't go anywhere. No part of the person has moved to a different location, although the mind may perceive this to be happening.”
Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds.
Whether God brings the vision to man, or transports ‘him’ to some other place spiritually, I see no difference or issue. I am not aware of any information to categorically define this. The fact is: that man’s mind is cognizant of the difference in state and all communication and happening. One thing is certain, that the matter of the vision is recorded in the brain, but the understanding is in the spirit.
The point that I think we need to realize in the issue of the controversy between good and evil, is that it is spiritual and not physical, and that there is spiritual life and physical life. If the spiritual life is brought down to the level of the physical brain only, it is lost; and if the spiritual life is made to be outside of the activity of the mind, it is lost. The point that should be easily understood is that God is concerned about “what manner of spirit we are of”.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74456
06/04/06 06:25 AM
06/04/06 06:25 AM
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Quote:
It took me awhile to find this. I read it around 30 years ago, but it made an impression on me (obvsiously, since I remembered it after 30 years). I was a non-Adventist Christian before becoming an Adventist, and did not realize that all communication between man and God occurred through the brain.
Regarding your questioning as to whether Paul's spirit could exist apart from the body, I'm surprised an Adventist would suggest this, since non-SDA's use this as an argument that Advenist theology regarding the nature of man is incorrect. Here is a response from the BRI which argues against the idea that Paul is suggesting that the spirit can exist apart from the body:
Tom
Dont you find the examples made by Mark worthy of comment? In a bible study, surely the bible carries greater weight than other sources? Therefore, is or isnt the example with Paul an indication that reality might be more complicated than how we like to describe it?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74457
06/04/06 09:08 AM
06/04/06 09:08 AM
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What did God give to the formed doll of dust at creation? His spirit or man’s spirit that makes the formed doll becomes a living man?
I disagree with you John if it is man’s spirit given to Adam that made him alive, it is God’s spirit that made him alive and continue to live.
Clearly the bible said: Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
It is not said: “When you send their spirit they are created…”
But I have read in the Scripture about man’s spirit, as follows:
1 Corinthians 2: 10, 11 - But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him?
This man’s spirit is his conscience, his strength of mind, his will, his character, it impart no life. A man might lost his will, his conscience but remain alive. What impart life is the Spirit of God, and that was what given to a formed doll of dust and clay at creation that made it becomes a man of blood and flesh. This spirit of man when influenced by the Spirit of God recognized the truth of the gospel of Christ and if he let the Spirit of God take the control of his mind, he would live and walk in the Spirit.
So, when Adam became a living soul, his spirit becomes alive for his spirit is his conscience, but as long as a man lives, the Spirit of God remained within him, without the Spirit of God there is no life, not only spiritual death but a death body.
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Man’s spirit separated from God’s spirit and spiritual death occurred. We continue living because God created us so as to have temporal life in the body and eternal life in the spirit. In sin the spirit of man transgresses against eternal life, and thus spiritual life is lost to death, and man continues to exist in a carnal state for a temporary time.
Unquote.
What happen then if God didn’t guard they way to the tree of life after Adam sinned, would he be an eternal sinner while spiritually death? This would not be the case as according to your view, the body doesn’t agree with the spirit, right? A death spirit would result in a death body sooner or later.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74458
06/04/06 01:29 PM
06/04/06 01:29 PM
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But God did do things as a result of their choice.
1 - He removed them from the Garden of Eden.
2 - He barred their way to the Tree of Life, thus cutting off their only means of living forever without experiencing the first death, a result of the sin of disobedience.
3 - God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by the light of His glory, with the exception of those willing to enter into the Ark of safety.
4 - God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah by fire and brimstone, not by the light of His glory.
5 - Christ, the Son of God, will slay the wicked at His Second Coming, from which they will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years, which we refer to as the Millenium.
6 - Christ, the Son of God, will consume the wicked in the Lake of Fire, until there is left neither root nor branch, which is the Second Death at the end of the same 1,000 years.
As to the cause of death, the first Adam and fallen humanity, by their acts of disobedience, caused God to react by bringing the penalty of the first death upon them, and both the devil, his fallen angels, and fallen unrepentant humanity will one day cause God to cast them all alive into the Lake of Fire and consume them completely, from which there will be no resurrection, the final and complete Second Death.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74459
06/04/06 01:43 PM
06/04/06 01:43 PM
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JS: I disagree with you John if it is man’s spirit given to Adam that made him alive, it is God’s spirit that made him alive and continue to live.
I agree that the spirit which man received came from God; that life is from God. What you do not seem to be making a difference is that God created actually something other than “body”; for an extension of himself; his spirit. If that were the case, could there have been sin? Does God’s spirit sin?
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This man’s spirit is his conscience, his strength of mind, his will, his character, it impart no life.
I do not disagree that these are definitely very meaningful aspects of man’s spirit. That man’s spirit does not impart life, you deduce from the sinful state of man. On the other hand to not be in the sinful state is to be in fellowship with God’s spirit, which is eternal life.
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What happen then if God didn’t guard they way to the tree of life after Adam sinned, would he be an eternal sinner while spiritually death? This would not be the case as according to your view, the body doesn’t agree with the spirit, right? A death spirit would result in a death body sooner or later.
To eat from the tree of life, would temporarily repair the physical damage that sin has done, it would not have been enough for man to eat once; he would need to continue eating throughout the future. This nevertheless would not prevent him from being murdered by his fellow sinner.
A death spirit would result in a dead body much sooner than thought were it not that God stepped in by his spirit to strive with man.
The matter here that I am trying to express is that the concept of physical eternal life is erroneous. That the only eternal life there is to be had is in the spirit. Those that have the eternal life in the spirit will have the right to the tree of life on an ongoing basis.
Christ said: Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74460
06/04/06 02:29 PM
06/04/06 02:29 PM
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Well stated, Daryl. I completely agree.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74461
06/04/06 04:08 PM
06/04/06 04:08 PM
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Tom, as I said more than once, I think the Adventist position on the nature of man may lack some depth. What about the points I made in support of that? Do you have any other comments?
Your quote is true. But as John pointed out, while the brain is where the memory is recorded physically, the brain, the mind and the spirit of man are not identical. So your quote by Ellen White needs to be interpreted in it's context and in light of the fact that the electical circuitry and electo-chemical aspect of our thinking process is part of the story. But just as genetics do not account in a complete way for our spiritual nature neither do physical thinking processes account for to the spirit of man. Isn't it the spirit of man, the will of the person, not the brain, that creates, drives and guides his thought?
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74462
06/07/06 01:50 AM
06/07/06 01:50 AM
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My reason for the thoughts I posted above on the nature of man and his spirit in this thread is to address some of Tom's ideas on the role of sin as being the determining factor. I said sin is what kills, but it is sin against a person, God, and it's always God who decides when a person's probation closes. This is the main objection I have Tom with you're view; the implication that the process of sin is determinative rather than a loving God who lengthens our days and the days of the wicked and when our time is fulfilled ends them.
‘Teach us to number our days . .’ God has numbered them already like he has our hairs. Sin does not determine their length. Sin only determines our mortality and only within the will of God. In the same way, God’s together with the saints’ will also determines the final punishment at the second death. It is true that the penalty in the final punishment of sin is proportional to the guilt of the individual, but if it was only a natural process the scripture would not suggest that saint will judge men and angels – it would say instead that they will simply be spectators of a natural process.
And so I’ve commented on the spirit of man. The Bible presents God as the God of spirits, fallen and unfallen. He is Lord of Hosts, that is to say, Hosts of spirits. He is creator of all living things, but He is not the God of trees and plants. He is only the creator of these. However, He is God of intelligent spirits. Sin is only a state of rebellion of the spirit resulting in death, but God is the one who sets the limits of time for each spirit, and who extends mercy and who limits the course of sin.
I keep returning to the theme of justice and how your view, in taking the control out of God's hand and attributing death to a process, presents an unbalanced and unloving view of God.
I think of James the Just. What picture do you have of James when you hear that title? Would it be any less true to call God ‘the just’? How can God be a just judge in your view? He does not judge according to you does he? If so how?
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God [not sin] shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74463
06/07/06 04:03 AM
06/07/06 04:03 AM
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Daryl, you've mixed a bunch of things together, without any purpose, other than they are all negative things(?). That is, your point is that God did things to punish man because of His sin? Because He doesn't like sin? It wouldn't be enough to all man to suffer the consequence of sin itself, because sin is harmless?
I'm just trying to guess why you put all these negative things together. I'm curious why you didn't mention any of the positive things God did, such as giving His Son to save the world.
I'll cover every other point, because to cover every point would make for a long post."1 - He removed them from the Garden of Eden." He didn't want to immortalize their sin, so He denied them access to the tree of life. They would suffer long enough, thanks to sin. Death would come as a sweet relief. God is not one to prolong misery."3 God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by the light of His glory, with the exception of those willing to enter into the Ark of safety." This seems like faulty logic to me. It appears you are arguing that because God did not destroy man with the light of His glory here, then this can't every happen. One could just as easily say, "God destroyed the human race by a world-wide flood, not by fire" to the same effect. Would a valid conclusion be that God will never destroy man by fire? I doubt you would agree with that.
Nevertheless, the Spirit of Prophecy states at least three times that God will destroy man by His glory, so this cannot be denied, can it?Quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 108)
"5 - Christ, the Son of God, will slay the wicked at His Second Coming, from which they will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years, which we refer to as the Millenium."
According to the Spirit of Prophecy:
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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
This is speaking specifically of the destruction of the wicked. "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."
I'll respond to the other points if you're interested.
Did you have a chance to read the Ty Gibson comments? I would interested in your response to them. I think he does a good job explaining the principles I've been trying to share.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74464
06/07/06 04:13 AM
06/07/06 04:13 AM
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Tom, as I said more than once, I think the Adventist position on the nature of man may lack some depth. What about the points I made in support of that? Do you have any other comments?
I think I commented at least twice. Perhaps if you reiterate a point I could comment so more, if you feel the previous comments were inadequate.
Your quote is true. But as John pointed out, while the brain is where the memory is recorded physically, the brain, the mind and the spirit of man are not identical. So your quote by Ellen White needs to be interpreted in it's context and in light of the fact that the electical circuitry and electo-chemical aspect of our thinking process is part of the story. But just as genetics do not account in a complete way for our spiritual nature neither do physical thinking processes account for to the spirit of man. Isn't it the spirit of man, the will of the person, not the brain, that creates, drives and guides his thought?
The brain is a physical thing, which makes it possible for man to think. The mind has to do with man's thought. The spirit of a subset of the mind. It is the part of the mind which has to do with spiritual things. There is nothing spiritual which does not involve the mind. That's what I believe. I think you would be hard-pressed to demonstrate this is not true. If it were true, we would have an arbitrary, mystery religion, wouldn't we? One where reason, choice and faith are by-passed? That's how it seems to me.
Regarding the EGW quote, it says that the only way heaven can communicate with man is through the brain. That seems to me that it would settle the issue. Whatever might be happening outside the brain is not communication. If the vision was a form of communication, she must have received it through the nerves of her brain, to use her words. This is sound logic, isn't it?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74465
06/07/06 04:30 AM
06/07/06 04:30 AM
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My reason for the thoughts I posted above on the nature of man and his spirit in this thread is to address some of Tom's ideas on the role of sin as being the determining factor. I said sin is what kills, but it is sin against a person, God, and it's always God who decides when a person's probation closes. This is the main objection I have Tom with you're view; the implication that the process of sin is determinative rather than a loving God who lengthens our days and the days of the wicked and when our time is fulfilled ends them.
This sounds like Calvinism, of fatalism, to me.
‘Teach us to number our days . .’ God has numbered them already like he has our hairs. Sin does not determine their length. Sin only determines our mortality and only within the will of God. In the same way, God’s together with the saints’ will also determines the final punishment at the second death.
The wicked suffer in proportion to their sin. They have determined their punishment. It is not arbitrary. God's knows how much the wicked will suffer, and the righteous will review what God discloses, and God's judgment will be vindicated. God knows the end from the beginning. He does not impose suffering upon others for punishment or any other reason. Suffering, misery, and death are the results of sin alone. God is good, and does only good. That is His nature, His character. What God is like and does was perfectly revealed by His Son. As the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, "ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son." God will act no differently than Jesus did. He can't, because Jesus was the perfect revelation of the Father's character.
It is true that the penalty in the final punishment of sin is proportional to the guilt of the individual, but if it was only a natural process the scripture would not suggest that saint will judge men and angels – it would say instead that they will simply be spectators of a natural process.
The judging is not arbitrary or imposed. It's not like man's judgment, in a court of law here. Sin really is bad. It really does cause death.
And so I’ve commented on the spirit of man. The Bible presents God as the God of spirits, fallen and unfallen. He is Lord of Hosts, that is to say, Hosts of spirits. He is creator of all living things, but He is not the God of trees and plants. He is only the creator of these. However, He is God of intelligent spirits. Sin is only a state of rebellion of the spirit resulting in death, but God is the one who sets the limits of time for each spirit, and who extends mercy and who limits the course of sin.
I keep returning to the theme of justice and how your view, in taking the control out of God's hand and attributing death to a process, presents an unbalanced and unloving view of God.
I don't see how God arbitrarily imposing His will with no regard for the choices of His children would be balanced or loving. Again, this sounds like Calvinism to me.
I think of James the Just. What picture do you have of James when you hear that title? Would it be any less true to call God ‘the just’? How can God be a just judge in your view? He does not judge according to you does he? If so how?
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God [not sin] shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
Jesus said, "The Father will judge no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son." and then said "I will judge no one" more than once. Our judgment is not something which God arbitrarily imposes upon us, but is determined by our own choices.
Ty Gibson addressed this in detail in the quotes I provided. I would appreciate your comments on them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74466
06/07/06 10:36 AM
06/07/06 10:36 AM
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Please Tom, I'd prefer you answered the questions in your own words this time rather than quoting Gibson. It will help clarify your position which is more important here than understanding what Gibson is saying.
It is not arbitrary to weigh a course of action and determine where the guilt lies and to apportion the penalty. That is justice. Regarding man's justice, the Bible says earthly rules are divinely set in office to punish evil. You have an unfortunate view of punishment. The fact that God personally disciplines us is used by the holy writer to establish the love of God. He points out that God, like a loving parent, not merely sin, disciplines us. Does God, Tom, intervene personally in your life to correct you? Or does He only allow the sins you've committed to catch up to you and take their course? Is he personally involved in shaping your character, or is he bound by a process so that he cannot personally put his hand on your shoulder and say, though circumstances, 'Why are you grieving my Spirit on this issue?'
If God can be involved personally like I’ve suggested, then who is it that ultimately determines our probationary period – is it sin or God? How can we say sin takes it's course without pushing a personal, loving God out of the picture. Sin is what kills, but God is personally involved at every step, limiting and overruling the results of sin and of ultimately determining our probationary period. Please, Tom, I’d like direct responses.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74467
06/07/06 04:50 PM
06/07/06 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Please Tom, I'd prefer you answered the questions in your own words this time rather than quoting Gibson. It will help clarify your position which is more important here than understanding what Gibson is saying.
I quoted Gibson because you expressed a favorable attitude towards what he wrote, if I'm not mistaken. He is presenting virtually the same ideas I am; there's very little difference between his view and mine. If you're really interested in clarifying my position, reading what he wrote would be helpful, and I'm sure an edited book by a clear writer is going to express thoughts more clearly than something banged out for a forum.
It took me some time to type the things from Gibson's book, which I did for your benefit, so I really would appreciate your feedback on them, at a minimum to the extent as to whether you agree with them or not.
It is not arbitrary to weigh a course of action and determine where the guilt lies and to apportion the penalty.
Yes it is. Arbitrary means "by individual discretion," which is exactly what you are describing. You are suggesting an imposed penalty which is determined by individual discretion, which is exactly what "arbitrary" means.
That is justice.
This is man's justice, not God's. Man's justice is "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth." God's justice is to turn the other cheek, to walk the second mile, to set things right by mercy and compassion. God taught us to love our enemies, and to forgive. Not to mark down every wrong deed to hold against them.
Quote:
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.(1 Cor. 13:5)
Note verse 5: "it keeps no record of wrongs." This agrees with 2 Cor. 5:19:
Quote:
God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
Regarding justice:
Quote:
Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice".( Isaiah 30:18)
God's justice is manifest in compassion.
Quote:
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another." (Zechariah 7:9)
Here's an interesting statement quoting from Isaiah:
Quote:
I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations… A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory (Matthew 12:18-21)
Notice that Christ is so gentle in leading justice to victory that even a flickering candle is not snuffed. This is the complete opposite of an arbitrary power coming down to enforce its will.
Regarding man's justice, the Bible says earthly rules are divinely set in office to punish evil.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts". (Isaiah 55 :8-9)
You have an unfortunate view of punishment.
Comments like this add nothing helpful. Imagine my response, "No, YOU have an unfortunate view of punishment." Not very constructive.
The fact that God personally disciplines us is used by the holy writer to establish the love of God.
He points out that God, like a loving parent, not merely sin, disciplines us. Does God, Tom, intervene personally in your life to correct you? Or does He only allow the sins you've committed to catch up to you and take their course? Is he personally involved in shaping your character, or is he bound by a process so that he cannot personally put his hand on your shoulder and say, though circumstances, 'Why are you grieving my Spirit on this issue?'
Certainly there is no doubt that God intervenes in our lives and disciplines us. I'm not sure what it is you have in mind by this. Given that all that we need to know or can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ, I look to His life as an example of how He disciplined His disciples. How did He do this? By bringing things to their attention and teachiing them. I see that God disciplines us in the same way. God also disciplines us by allowing us to experience the results of our choices. I do not see God disciplining us by arbitrarily imposing some negative consequence upon us which is totally unrelated to the results of any choices we have made. Is this what you have in mind? Perhaps you could give a specific example of what you're thinking of.
If God can be involved personally like I’ve suggested, then who is it that ultimately determines our probationary period – is it sin or God?
By our probationary period, you mean how long we live physically? The Spirit of Prophecy points out that many people cut their lives short by their unfortunate habits and that God is not honored by this. How does this fit into your view? She gave her husband as another example of one who could have lived longer, but didn't, because of various reasons which affected his health. She never mentioned God as a reason for her husband dying prematurely.
I think there's a limit to how long we can live, which is determined by God, on the basis of the laws of heredity. We are each given a certain amount of vital force, which lasts for our lifetime. We can deplete that force by disregading the laws of health.
I'm not seeing that God arbitrarily determines our life span, if that's what you're asking.
How can we say sin takes it's course without pushing a personal, loving God out of the picture. Sin is what kills, but God is personally involved at every step, limiting and overruling the results of sin and of ultimately determining our probationary period.
If you're saying here that God intervenes by His mercy and grace to limit the impact of sin, which would kill us instantly if not for the grace of God, I agree. God lengthens our lives, by His grace, limiting and overruling the results of sin, as you say.
Please, Tom, I’d like direct responses.
I'm a bit confused by this request. I've experienced myself that sometimes getting a direct response is like pulling teeth, having to ask or reask a question 4 or 5 times or more, and sometimes never getting a response, but I don't recall that I've not directly responded to any question. I might miss a question by oversight, but I've never not directly answered a question on purpose, to the best of knowledge, in the years that I've been here and the thousands of posts I've partaken of, so your request seems to me to be superfluous.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74468
06/07/06 05:23 PM
06/07/06 05:23 PM
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Quote # 1.
I agree that the spirit which man received came from God; that life is from God. What you do not seem to be making a difference is that God created actually something other than “body”; for an extension of himself; his spirit. If that were the case, could there have been sin? Does God’s spirit sin?
Quote # 2
I have also answered this to JS when he said "Life is: Body + the Spirit of God." that: That would be God living in his own body, not man. In order for man to be a person, he must have his own spirit. God gave man spirit at creation; that was man’s spirit.
Unquote.
Really? Is there an independent “spirit” in us apart from God Spirit and apart from our body? Life according to you is: our body + our spirit.
According to me, what our “spirit” is; is our conscience, the power of our mind, and the Spirit of God is his power of life which makes us a living soul. There is a distinction between them, which makes our spirit could not be an extension of God’s Spirit.
What is enmity against God? Our carnal mind (Romans 8:7). Where does sin reside? In our mind (Romans 8:20, 23).
So, without an independent “spirit” in us, which is the extension of God’s spirit, as you call that, we still might sin (in the mind) and not God’s Spirit that sins and still be alive in our own body for the Spirit of God imparts life.
1 Corinthians 2:11 said that only our “spirit” knows the things of us, since the “spirit” is our conscience, surely it knows everything about us but know nothing about God, except the Spirit of God.
When Adam sinned, did God Spirit left Adam’s body or does it remain in Adam’s body and his off springs all of this time? If God Spirit left us, how could we live?
Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.”
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”
The Scripture answer it: Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”
I didn’t see any other independent “thing” in us, such as our own spirit, what I see and understand we are a living soul because we have the Spirit of God in us, which is our breath of life. Taking it away, we died.
Sorry John, I still didn’t quite understand your view, please back it up with Scripture to understand where it’s originated.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74469
06/07/06 05:38 PM
06/07/06 05:38 PM
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Hmm, so far, till now, we still could not come to one view regarding death, who or what did it to us? The cause of it, I think, we all agree is sin. But most of us think that sin is an indirect cause of our death and not the cause of it self. Most of us still think that the caused of our death (1st death and 2nd death) is the involvement of God in our life and death, but even though it is a part of God’s act, we didn’t picture Him as a cruel and savage God, because death is what we choose, God OTH wants us a life and have eternal life and has done the most sacrifice to give us our life back through the life and death of His only begotten Son “Jesus Christ.”
His act against us and sin is just the right way; to eliminate sin and sinners forever from his universe he must use death as a means. But, since the 1st day of the life of our first parents, they had been warned against death, if they choose their own way. So, what is wrong with that?
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74470
06/07/06 05:51 PM
06/07/06 05:51 PM
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And to make LEGAL the death against us, he gave us his Law, which brought all men under condemnation, for no one might be justified before Him by their obedience to the law.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74471
06/07/06 07:21 PM
06/07/06 07:21 PM
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Quote:
And to make LEGAL the death against us, he gave us his Law, which brought all men under condemnation, for no one might be justified before Him by their obedience to the law.
The Scriptures tells us what the purpose of the law was. It was added because of transgression, for the purpose of leading us to Christ, in order that we might repent and be saved from sin, which causes death. See Galatians 3, around vs. 16 and following.
Death is a consequence of sin, not the law. Even without the law sin would still be deadly, because sin is selfishness, and selfishness cannot result in anything but misery, pain, and death. Only the principles laid out in God's law can lead to peace, happiness and life. That's the way things are. It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74472
06/07/06 07:22 PM
06/07/06 07:22 PM
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Hmm, so far, till now, we still could not come to one view regarding death, who or what did it to us? The cause of it, I think, we all agree is sin. But most of us think that sin is an indirect cause of our death and not the cause of it self. Most of us still think that the caused of our death (1st death and 2nd death) is the involvement of God in our life and death, but even though it is a part of God’s act, we didn’t picture Him as a cruel and savage God, because death is what we choose, God OTH wants us a life and have eternal life and has done the most sacrifice to give us our life back through the life and death of His only begotten Son “Jesus Christ.” This is an excellent point you're bringing ub James. Most people indeed, as you point out, do not see any connection between sin and death. I'm going to quote from the Ty Gibson quotation on the other thread:Punishment is organic to sin itself…
It is commonly thought that the connection between sin and death is imply that if we don’t repent of our sins God will kill us. Often no actual, intrinsic relationship is discerned between sin and death. But even a casual consideration of Scripture on this point persuades us otherwise. Notice just these few examples (quotes Gal. 6:7, 8; Rom. 6:16, 21-23; Rom. 8:6; Rom. 8:13; Prov. 8:36; James 1:15)Most of these Scriptures have already been brought up. One or two might not have been, so you might wish to look them up. Continuing from Ty:Quote:
God does not threaten, “If you keep sinning, I will kill you.” Rather, He warns, “If you continue in sin, you will die,” for “sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” And so He pleads, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die …? (Ezek. 33:11). We’re caught off guard by a question like this from God. We are more inclined to ask Him, “Why do You kill?” But He points to our sin and asks us, “Why do you choose death?”
Is sin something harmful, something lethal, from which God tries to save us? Or is sin in reality harmless, except for the fact that God punishes it? This is an important question to consider, as it leads us to quite different conceptions of God's character and in His role in the Plan of Salvation, as well as what the Plan of Salvation is all about. What is it that is deadly, sin or God?
His act against us and sin is just the right way; to eliminate sin and sinners forever from his universe he must use death as a means.
This would contradict the Scriptural teaching that sin causes death. God doesn't use death as a means to punish death, but sin results in death. God attemtps to save us from death by saving us from sin. Sin and death cannot be separated. Look at Christ. Even when He became sin, He tasted death.
But, since the 1st day of the life of our first parents, they had been warned against death, if they choose their own way. So, what is wrong with that?
God warned them not to sin because if they sinned they would die. There's nothing wrong with this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74473
06/07/06 08:39 PM
06/07/06 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.(1 Cor. 13:5)
Note verse 5: "it keeps no record of wrongs." This agrees with 2 Cor. 5:19:
Did you just throw out the investigative judgement? Or was it just a perversion of the same that went down the drain?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74474
06/07/06 09:43 PM
06/07/06 09:43 PM
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The record of wrongs is speaking in the sense of holding something against someone. Isn't that obvious?
What do you think 1 Cor. 13:5 means?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74475
06/08/06 04:38 PM
06/08/06 04:38 PM
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James, please notice that most SDAs believe God punishes and destroys the wicked in the lake of fire because they refused to be saved. Such rejection is high treason and worthy of extreme measures. Here is how Jesus views it:
Hebrews
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Mark
9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74476
06/09/06 12:02 AM
06/09/06 12:02 AM
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15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. I Cor.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree with you Tom. We agree sin is bad and that the sting of sin is death. Sin is bad and has it's effect because of the law. The law is where sin obtains its strength. There are legal implications to sin in its definition. These aren't arbitary any more than the law of God is arbitary. Thomas is right that you're view also has implications for the Investigative Judgement, but that's another topic.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74477
06/09/06 01:49 PM
06/09/06 01:49 PM
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Quote.
Death is a consequence of sin, not the law. Even without the law sin would still be deadly, because sin is selfishness, and selfishness cannot result in anything but misery, pain, and death.
Unquote.
Sure, I did not say that the law become death to us, it will be against Romans 7:12, 13. What I have in mind is that without the law, God has no legal right to execute the death upon men. The Law gave the legal right to God because under the law, no man is righteous.
Romans 5:13, 14 (NIV)
For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
What do you think Paul had in mind when writing this?
Quote.
The Scriptures tells us what the purpose of the law was. It was added because of transgression, for the purpose of leading us to Christ, in order that we might repent and be saved from sin, which causes death. See Galatians 3, around vs. 16 and following
Unquote.
But, I think that the purpose of the law given to men is also to justify God’s action in executing death upon sinners and justifying Christ as a righteous person that succeed in keeping the law perfectly, proving that he is God and got his reward: life after death. Otherwise, God lied.
Without a written law given at Sinai, God has no legal right to execute death upon sinners, Christ would come unknown and sin is not imputed and death is illegal.
In His love
James S.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74478
06/09/06 03:27 PM
06/09/06 03:27 PM
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We agree sin is bad and that the sting of sin is death. Sin is bad and has it's effect because of the law. The law is where sin obtains its strength. There are legal implications to sin in its definition. These aren't arbitary any more than the law of God is arbitary....
That's right, the legal implcations aren't arbitrary! They're real.
The law of God defines the only way to have peace, health, happniess or life. This law is a law of love. Just as Jesus said, it's more blessed to give than to receive. The law of self-sacrificing love is that if this defines your character, you will live.
On the other hand, if you live selfishly, you will die. Not because God will kill you, but because the principle of selfishness cannot support life. It just can't. It's impossible. Selfishness can only lead to misery, pain and death. And this isn't because of God.
Take a practical example. In your own life, have you not noticed that when you act selfishly you feel bad? You don't have peace? There are negative ramications? Do you think this is because of God, that He is punishing you? Or is it because selfishness is innately, organically, in its essence, bad?
Thomas is right that you're view also has implications for the Investigative Judgement, but that's another topic.
Of course it has implications regarding the Investigative Judgement. The Atonement, Invesitigative Judgement, Executive Judgement, everything involving the Great Controversy is impacted by whether we perceive that there is an organic relationship, to use Ty Gibson's term, between sin and death.
If we do not perceive that this relationship is direct, that you can't have one without the other, both come in one package, then our views of the Atonement, Investigative Judgment, Executive Judgment, etc. will of necessity have an arbitrary element in them. This can't help but be the case.
This is exactly the point Ty Gibson is making. For your convenience, I'll requote his argument here:
There are a number of serious problems with the three-party picture, foremost of which is that it makes no legal or moral sense for an innocent third-party victim to suffer the penalty for the wrongdoer. If such an arrangement could actually satisfy God, then we would be forced to conclude that His law and His wrath are irrational and arbitrary, meaning there is no actual relationship between law and sin and death. If God’s wrath can be appeased by venting rage on an innocent third party, then it follows that there is no real problem with sin other than the fact that God doesn’t want us doing it: His law is arbitrary. Moreover, since we have failed to meet His arbitrary demands, we had better suffer ourselves or find a whipping boy to suffer in our place: His wrath is arbitrary.
Did the Father cause the suffering and death of Christ?
Yes and no!
Yes, if we mean He delivered Him over to suffering and death according to His own wise purpose of grace. Yes, if we mean that the Father gave up His Son to experience the tormenting psychological agony of our guilt.
No, if we mean He acted as an arbitrary source of pain and death, as the tormentor and executioner of His Son. No, if we mean that the Father assumed a position of vicious hostility toward His Son. Christ suffered and died at *our* hands, under the burden of *our* sin, by the gracious, self-sacrificing purpose of the Father….
I think I'll stop here and ask you if you think what Ty is arguing here makes any sense.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74479
06/09/06 03:45 PM
06/09/06 03:45 PM
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I think you're correct, MM, that most Adventists believe as you stated. However, the view I've been presenting regarding the lake of fire, is by no means new, and a sizeable minority holds to it, as Kevin H. has documented. For over a hundred years Adventists have been debating the nature of the fire that will destroy the wicked.
There are a number of statements from the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture which indicate that God is the fire which will destroy the wicked. For example, the Spirit of Prophecy states several times that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, and that because of their sin God's presence will become a consuming fire to them. Isaiah asks the question, "Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings?" answering it that the righteous can. There are a number of Scriptures which present God as fire, several of which Ellen White quoted when she made the point herself that the wicked would be destroyed by the glory of God in DA 108.
I think this issue is similar to another one I had to dealt with when I was becoming an Adventist, which was there were a number of texts which seemed to indicate that the wicked would suffer forever in hell, and other which gave a different picture. I had to compare Scripture with Scripture, and consider the implications of the two views, one of the chief of which is what it tells us about God's character.
Each one will have to consider the evidence and decide which view best fits with Scripture.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74480
06/09/06 03:54 PM
06/09/06 03:54 PM
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Sure, I did not say that the law become death to us, it will be against Romans 7:12, 13. What I have in mind is that without the law, God has no legal right to execute the death upon men. The Law gave the legal right to God because under the law, no man is righteous.
I think this isn't a good way to consider this. It makes it sound like things would have been fine, if it weren't for God, and His unfortunate deed of giving the law. But if you think about it, introducing the law cannot make sin bad. Sin is bad of itself. Sin is selfishness, and selfishness is bad. Even if God hadn't given the law, selfishness would be bad, because it's contrary to the principles of love.
So why did God give the law? Galatians goes into the argument in more detail than Romans, but Romans deals with it too. God gave us the law to help us know about sin, so that we would feel the need for His help to be delivered from it.
Here's an analogy. If you drive too fast, you may get in an accident. So for the good of society, laws are put into place governing how fast you can drive. If you drive faster than that, you may have an accident. Even if the law were not put in place, driving too fast would still lead to accidents. Adding the law did not make driving fast any more or less dangerous than it already was. But the posting of the speed limit helps the driver to know what a safe driving speed is.
Similarly God gave us His law to help us understand the principles of His government, the principles of life, and to better understand the principles contrary to His government, contrary to love, contrary to life. He did this *for our benefit*. Certainly not to have the right to kill us! God forbid! God brings us life, not death.
I think what I've written here covers the rest of your post, James, so I'll stop here.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74481
06/09/06 04:04 PM
06/09/06 04:04 PM
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Sin causes death?
At the coroner’s table, death is identified as damage of the brain. The cause of it; a bullet that was shot through the head of the dead man.
Where does sin causes death here fits in?
The caused of the death: brain damage and all vital organs stop its functions.
The caused of the brain damage: Pistol shot to the head that blows the brain.
Maybe we can state further;
The caused of shooting: revenge, war, robbery, self defense, murder, etc, etc.
What is the caused of death of the Egyptian’s first born? Exodus 12:29.
Where does sin causes death fits in?
But I understand that at the end, sin is the indirect cause of the misery, the pain, the death, etc.
In His love
James S.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74482
06/09/06 05:13 PM
06/09/06 05:13 PM
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Sin causes the second death. The first death is only possible because God puts the second death on hold. John B. went into this in detail in his posts.
Did the analogy of the speed limit make sense to you? Does it make sense that the law that God added did not make sin any worse than it already was, just like the law does not make speeding any worse? The law clarifies sin for us, makes it know to us, so that we will deal with it. Does this make sense?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74483
06/09/06 07:04 PM
06/09/06 07:04 PM
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James, in my mind the answers to the questions you are asking are plain and simple. 1) God saves us from sin and death as we behold Christ and Him crucified. 2) God will punish and destroy in the lake of fire those who reject salvation in Christ.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74484
06/09/06 10:43 PM
06/09/06 10:43 PM
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Concerning 1 Cor 13, I usually understood it as a whole that should not be choped up into smal parts. In its context of the gifts of the Spirit, reminding the corinthians that while these gifts are from God and a blessing when used in an orderly way, they are nothing at all if the person lacks love.
The particular verse you brought attention to is translated "resentment" in other versions which backs up your understanding of it (though the wording used in your quote is not at all clear that this is what it means). In the way you used it, making a point that: 'love ~ God, keeps no record of evil, which would mean that the book that is to be/was opened with the records of all humans evil actions will be a rather thin book'. Of course there could always be a judgement based on the good things done and recorded, or not done, but thats not really what is teached is it?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74485
06/10/06 05:09 AM
06/10/06 05:09 AM
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No, when it says it keeps no record of wrong, it means in the sense of not being offended by someone, of not holding it against them. It's the same thing 2 Cor. 5:19 says, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them.
It's the same thing Jesus demonstrated in His life. For example, to the woman caught in adultery He said, "Neither do I condemn you." For those who were crucifying Him, He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He washed Judas' feet. He told Simon a story that noone but he would understand. He looked at Peter with compassion and forgiveness in his eyes, winning him back. Everything in Jesus' life demonstrates One who keeps no record of wrong. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.
The books of the investigative judgement are just referring to things which are in God's memory, things which God knows. Not keeping a record of wrongs is not talking about bookkeeping. It's talking about motive, about intent. God does nothing with the intention of hurting them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74486
06/16/06 02:48 PM
06/16/06 02:48 PM
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Quote.
Sin causes the second death. The first death is only possible because God puts the second death on hold. John B. went into this in detail in his posts.
Unquote.
Sin causes the second death.
Second death happened because there is a resurrection to life from the first death. If Christ didn’t come, there is only eternal death. And this death happened because:
1. Of sin?
2. Adam’s choice?
3. Stop eating the fruit of life?
4. God is involved?
Seems that most of us here prefer to say that God is involved!
Whether death is his creation, whether men was created mortal and subject to die, whether men was cut off from the tree of life, whether God sent his angle to kill, as happened to those first born of the Egyptians, as that happened to the world at the flood; At the end, God used death as a means to eradicate sin and sinners from his universe forever.
In His love
James S.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74487
06/16/06 02:50 PM
06/16/06 02:50 PM
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Quote.
Did the analogy of the speed limit make sense to you? Does it make sense that the law that God added did not make sin any worse than it already was, just like the law does not make speeding any worse? The law clarifies sin for us, makes it know to us, so that we will deal with it. Does this make sense?
Unquote.
Yes, indeed it is but isn’t one of the many function of the law is to justify God’s action in using death as a means of eradicating sin and sinners forever from his universe? Without it he would be blamed as a Tyrant and Dictator.
God knew that his law could justify no man for their righteousness in keeping it, but he still give it to men. Not only to get to know what sin is and guide people to Christ, but also to justify his action against men in using death as a means to clean his universe from sin and sinners and last but not least to justify Christ for his righteousness and award him with life, as according what had been said: “Those who keep My law would live” (Leviticus 18:4,5), repeated thousand years later by Jesus: “And I know that his commandments is life everlasting” (John 12:50) and Paul agrees with it: “For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them” (Romans 10:5).
So, the law justifies a man to live for his righteousness when he kept the law perfectly, but to those who didn’t they come under condemnation; which justifies God action in using death as a means to annihilate sin and sinners forever from his universe.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74488
06/16/06 02:57 PM
06/16/06 02:57 PM
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Quote.
James, in my mind the answers to the questions you are asking are plain and simple. 1) God saves us from sin and death as we behold Christ and Him crucified. 2) God will punish and destroy in the lake of fire those who reject salvation in Christ.
Unquote.
Simple and clear!
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74489
06/16/06 03:56 PM
06/16/06 03:56 PM
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James, there's two possibilities.
1.Sin will kill us, and God is seeking to save us from it, because it is deadly.
2.God is warning us that if we sin, He will kill us.
You are suggesting that the purpose of the law is so that God can legally kill us. This is very ironic, given that the law says "Thou shalt not kill." But leaving that aside, I think the points John B. has made are well taken. The law was not ordained for death, but for life! It is sin, working unlawfully, that causes death. This is explained very clearly by Paul in Romans, as John pointed out.
God is life, and those who unite themselves to God live. To know God is life eternal. Those who choose to separate themselves from God will die, not because God will kill them, but because it is not possible to be disconnected from the only source of life and live.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74490
06/16/06 04:02 PM
06/16/06 04:02 PM
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James, even though I don't agree with your ideas, I wanted to commend you on your post (not the last one, but the one right before it). I know English is a foreign language to you, but in spite of that I found your explanation to be very clear! It's a very good presentation of the viewpoint that you hold.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74491
06/17/06 06:47 AM
06/17/06 06:47 AM
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Quote:
1.Sin will kill us, and God is seeking to save us from it, because it is deadly.
2.God is warning us that if we sin, He will kill us.
Unquote.
If sin kills, then when would Satan die, looking from the fact that he had lived in sin for thousands of years and I believe will continue to live unless God do something to stop him.
And if it is God that stops him, indeed God is involve, right?
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74492
06/17/06 02:05 PM
06/17/06 02:05 PM
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James, I agree. Jesus is the One who will defeat and destroy sin and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire - not sin. Jesus will be praised throughout eternity for being the One who eliminated sin and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire - not sin. We will sing His praises forever.
Exodus
15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
15:21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74493
06/18/06 02:09 AM
06/18/06 02:09 AM
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Quote:
If sin kills, then when would Satan die, looking from the fact that he had lived in sin for thousands of years and I believe will continue to live unless God do something to stop him.
The only way for the falsity of Satan's claims to be seen was for God to allow Satan's government to fully develop, so that its character and the character of sin could be seen. That sin causes death was revealed clearly at the cross. Satan will die the death which Christ tasted, when he bears the guilt for what he has done. The reason Satan hasn't died yet is that God is not permitting him to suffer the inevitable results of sin, because if he did, then his death would have been misunderstood. It would have appeared that God was killing him, rather than his death being the inevitable results of sin. A seed of doubt as to God's character would have remained.
If all that was necessary to win the Great Controversy was for God to kill Satan, He could have done that long ago. This thing would have been over eons ago. But God doesn't work that way. Compelling power is not to be found in His government, but in the enemy's. God's government is moral, and the principles by which He will win the battle are the principles of love, mercy and truth.
After all the evidence has been seen, and every creature has been able to make a reasoned choice, then sin will come to an end; not because God kills everybody He doesn't want to be in His kingdom, but because they have chosen to have no part of Him, and He leaves them to the result of their choice of separating themselves from Him.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74494
06/19/06 10:13 AM
06/19/06 10:13 AM
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Quote.
The reason Satan hasn't died yet is that God is not permitting him to suffer the inevitable results of sin, because if he did, then his death would have been misunderstood. It would have appeared that God was killing him, rather than his death being the inevitable results of sin. A seed of doubt as to God's character would have remained.
If all that was necessary to win the Great Controversy was for God to kill Satan, He could have done that long ago. This thing would have been over eons ago.
Unquote.
I agree with this, if Satan was killed the day he rebel, God would be seen as a Tyrant and Dictator that rule with iron hand. The angles will worship him in fear not in love.
But God had shown his great love and mercy through Jesus death, so, the case would be different now. Angels and men would no longer see God as a Tyrant or Dictator that ruled with iron hand when he used death as a means to eradicate sin and sinners including Satan and his gang from his universe once and forever. They understand and know Him well now to accept His judgment.
Matthew 10:28.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
I understand your view point Tom, but I se that my view point is also not wrong and supported by the bible and M.M.
In His love
James S
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74495
06/19/06 01:55 PM
06/19/06 01:55 PM
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I agree that it's supported by M.M. I'm not sure how much solace you should find in this, however. 
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74496
06/24/06 09:21 AM
06/24/06 09:21 AM
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I understand that God love us soo much that He is willing to die for us in order to save us.
But I understand too that God hate sin soo much that in order to wipe it out of His universe He is willing to burn sinners with Satan and his gang in everlasting fire, which only died when there is nothing more left to burn.
Sin causes our death, it is true, but sin is only the cause, it could not wipe out sinners, Satan and his gang for ever from the universe of God, an action which only God can do it.
So, sin causes death, God is the executioner.
In His love
James S.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74497
06/25/06 01:57 AM
06/25/06 01:57 AM
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The problem, James, is the burning sinners does not eliminate sin. If this were the case, God would have burned Satan and his followers immediately, and the problem would have been taken care of.
Remember that sin originated in an environment where there were no sinners. So simply get rid of sinners doesn't mean that sin won't arise.
It's very sad to me to think of God as an executioner. God is like Jesus Christ. When given the chance to act as executioner for one caught in the act of a sin punishable by death, Christ did not do so, but instead said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
When given another chance, by the disciples who urged Him to execute the Samaritans who were rejecting Him, He explained to His disciples, "You know not of what spirit you are."
Satan is the destroyer. God's character is to save, to heal. As Jesus said, "The Son of Man came not to destroy man's lives, but to save them." And again, "For God did not send His Son to condemn the world, but that by Him the world might be saved."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Death: Who or what caused it?
#74498
06/25/06 08:15 AM
06/25/06 08:15 AM
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Quote.
The problem, James, is the burning sinners does not eliminate sin. If this were the case, God would have burned Satan and his followers immediately, and the problem would have been taken care of.
Unquote.
Hhm….. I think you had made a mistake in your view Tom.
If Satan and his followers are killed instantly the day they sinned, God would be worshipped with fear, he would be seen no more as a God of love but a selfish God who ruled with iron hand, a dictator, a tyrant.
When the time is right, God execute the death upon sinners, Satan and his gang without arising any doubt in his creatures for his judgment. They knew that he must do that to wipe out sin and sinners forever, to leave his universe to the righteous holly creatures with agape hearts. They would not question his action and judgment, for the time given to Satan and sin to develop it wickedness is more than enough and what risk it had taken. They understood now where the Great controversy would lead and how it would ends.
God would be appraised for his judgment in abolishing sin and sinners, Satan and his gang in everlasting fire.
In His love
James S.
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