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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74980
07/02/06 03:12 PM
07/02/06 03:12 PM
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Quote:
I'm going to substitute "mind" for "spirit" in the last paragraph of John's:
I left out the las phrase "fruit of the spirit" because I didn't know if that meant fruit of the Holy Spirit or not.
The indwelling of God by His mind in our mind, or His spirit in our spirit, I understand to mean our accepting His thoughts as our own.
With "mind" in the place of "spirit," what is said in the paragraph makes sense to me. If "spirit" means the same thing as mind, or an aspect of the mind, such as the higher powers of the mind, or the portion of the mind that can apprehend and appreciate spiritual things, and those aspect of the mind related to these spiritual things, then this makes sense to me as well.
If the idea is that the spirit is something which can exist apart from the mind, then it doesn't make sense to me.
Often times in conversation mind and spirit could be interchanged depending on the context and aspect. However they are fundamentally and functionally different; different in their government and powers. Basically speaking mind deals with learned knowledge, values, principles, purposes etc. These have been received, accepted and validated by the spirit of man. The spirit largely consists of will and faith. Before anything becomes ours in the mind, it needs to be accepted (given authority and validity) by our spirit. The highest authority in man is his spirit. The spirit does not have to be subject, and is not supposed to be subject to whatever is in the mind. It can override it invalidate it, or investigate things unknown. But the spirit must have a source. In other words, something is trusted (whether reasonable or not, known or unknown. Yet that something is chosen by the will, and received through faith. Whatever is chosen becomes the source and is master over us.
The idea is not that the spirit can exist apart from the mind; but, that there is a difference between the mind and spirit. There is a difference in its governmental positions. Just as what the eyes look upon affects what you see, so also, the spirit affects the perception of the mind.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74981
07/02/06 11:26 PM
07/02/06 11:26 PM
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OP
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If angels have spirits, (and bodies) and we are a little lower than them, is it a great leap to think we have spirits too?
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74982
07/02/06 11:36 PM
07/02/06 11:36 PM
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A couple of members have voiced concerns about this leading to spiritualism if we were to view man as having a spirit. That’s the main concern for Adventists, but is there any cause for it? And what are the alternatives? Something guides our thoughts. What is it? Someone suggested the will and/or the mind.
If we use the scriptural meaning of mind and/or heart, it is true that the mind or heart guide the thoughts. “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.” But if we are referring to the mind as most modern people think of it, that is, as a thought-processing centre like a computer, then we’re no longing using the biblical definition of mind and/or heart and we are not answering the question, ‘What guides the thoughts?’. In the case of a computer the operator using software guides it’s ‘thoughts’ not the computer itself. So, in the Bible, the mind and/or heart do guide the thoughts, but what are the bible writers taking about when they use those terms, mind and heart? They are not meaning the ‘human CPU (central processing unit)’ that most people today think of when the word mind is used. Instead, aren’t they referring to the essence of the person, to his spirit?
If the Bible writers meant only the will when they refer to the heart or mind, then where are the elements that make us human – the refined and elevated emotions and bonds we have for each other. Emotions are not a matter of will. We feel them regardless. Our conscience may tell us our emotions are right or wrong, but what guides or enlightens our conscience? Not our minds in the modern sense and not our wills. The Holy Spirit enlightens us. Can we speak of an enlightened will? The will is only the power of choice. It is the conscience, the mind (biblical sense) the heart (biblical sense) the spirit, that has to be enlightened.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74983
07/03/06 03:21 AM
07/03/06 03:21 AM
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To say that the spirit can override or invalidate the mind implies that the spirit has some way of doing this, some sort of thought process (unless there's is some way of invalidating or overriding without thinking). How can the spirit think without the mind? Where in the human body is this activity happening, if not in the brain? If the only communication that can happen between man and God is through the brain, how could God communicate with the spirit of a man, if not by way of the brain?
To me it makes more sense to think of things like this:
a)All communciation between God and man occurse through the higher powers of the mind. This involves the will, the conscience, faith, the ability to appreciate spiritual things, and the ability to respond to the Spirit. These higher powers could be called the "spirit" if so desired.
b)No spiritual activity occurs that does not involve the mind.
c)Faith is an activity of the mind. By faith man can believe in the spiritual things which God communicates to him through the mind, and by faith respond to the Spirit of God.
d)The heart is the center of the emotions and where man does his deepest thinking.
The essence of a man is his mind. The mind encompasses all that makes a man a man. As a man thinking in his heart, so is he. The heart here is simply the mind; not the lower powers of the mind (aka the "flesh"), but the part of the mind that reasons, that ponders spiritual things, that includes the conscience, that responds to the Spirit of God, that makes decisions, that plans, that determines the principles by which one will live, that sets the priorities of life, and so on.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74984
07/03/06 05:21 AM
07/03/06 05:21 AM
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Quote:
To say that the spirit can override or invalidate the mind implies that the spirit has some way of doing this, some sort of thought process (unless there's is some way of invalidating or overriding without thinking). How can the spirit think without the mind? Where in the human body is this activity happening, if not in the brain? If the only communication that can happen between man and God is through the brain, how could God communicate with the spirit of a man, if not by way of the brain?
Tom; we should not be going over the same thing repeatedly. The idea is not that the spirit can exist apart from the mind; but, that there is a difference between the mind and spirit. There is a difference in its governmental positions. Just as what the eyes look upon affects what you see, so also, the spirit affects the perception of the mind.
That which is in the mind has entered there through the spirit and by the spirit. Every bit of data in the mind is valued (given a value of worth), categorized (in its application), and prioritized. This is done in and by the spirit. Of course there is thought process; but this thought process is predetermined by the position of the spirit. Yet we can choose to change the position of our spirit.
The way the spirit overrides the mind is simply by the will, the way it invalidates the data in the mind is by changing the above three values. The only way that these can be changed though is to change the position of faith. In other words;
Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Quote:
To me it makes more sense to think of things like this:
a)All communication between God and man occurs through the higher powers of the mind. This involves the will, the conscience, faith, the ability to appreciate spiritual things, and the ability to respond to the Spirit. These higher powers could be called the "spirit" if so desired.
Thank you for the permission. The point is to understand what the scriptures mean when they speak of our “spirit”. One thing in your list above, conscience though important, is not a faculty of the spirit. In fact, the fallen spirit of man is continually in conflict with it. It is a faculty of the mind. It is the ECC (error correction control)of the mind; to prevent abuse of the mind and reason by the spirit.
Quote:
b)No spiritual activity occurs that does not involve the mind.
Depending on what is meant, I would agree.
Quote:
c)Faith is an activity of the mind. By faith man can believe in the spiritual things which God communicates to him through the mind, and by faith respond to the Spirit of God.
That type of faith does not save. Having made the distinction in your point d) below in differentiating between the heart and the mind, biblical faith then is the activity of the heart and not the mind. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
Quote:
d)The heart is the center of the emotions and where man does his deepest thinking.
That is a bit of a conundrum. I do not think that you would concur that the scriptures identify ‘emotions’ with ‘deepest thinking’. Scriptures identify heart with spirit. It might be surprising, but there is not much thinking done in fallen spirit. The thinking is done in the mind, but the resolution is effected by and in the spirit. Again, what our spirit is is determined by the two realizable aspects of the spirit; namely will and faith. These are not the spirit but are part of it, and govern it by establishing its source. What the source is determines what the spirit is.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74985
07/03/06 11:26 AM
07/03/06 11:26 AM
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In my last post I think I gave the impression that mind and spirit are interchangeable in the Bible. I wouldn’t go that far. It says in Ephesians Quote:
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; Eph
In other words the spirit and the mind are not identical. The spirit of the mind is the essential element that needs to be renewed.
In some texts, heart and spirit has the same or almost the same meaning.
Quote:
22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. Psalms
In the above passage, the heart has a broader meaning than only mind. It encompasses the essence of the person.
Christ’s statement below should be interpreted in the same way:
Quote:
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Matt
When we are in distress caused by the wickedness and injustice of others, David has this advice: Quote:
4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah. Psalms
What is he saying? Isn’t his message to us that our hearts which have been entrusted to God should instruct and quiet our spirits in times of distress.
Quote:
19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
And we have to let the context assign the meaning. In the verse below for example, spirit and mind mean unity of thought and purpose:
Quote:
1:27 …[S]stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Phil
Quote:
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess
In the above text that apostle says not to be troubled by the spirit of another. I suggest in this context he would be referring mainly to the spirit of another person.
Quote:
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I’m out of time. I’ll comment on the last text later.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74986
07/03/06 02:07 PM
07/03/06 02:07 PM
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John, why shouldn't we keep going over the same things? I'm just trying to understand what's being said. If you presented Scrpiture texts with the assertions, along the lines of what Mark is doing, that would help.
It seems to me that a highly developed theory is being constructed without a foundation which can be supported from Scripture. I'm not being dogmatic about this. I could well be wrong in this assertion. I'm open to seeing this, but so far I'm just not seeing the evidence for the assertions. It could well be that you're seeing something I'm not seeing, so that's why I keep putting things in my own words and asking questions. If you have a better way of looking at things, then I want to learn it.
When I said, "if so desired," I didn't have permission in mind. Were you just being funny? Or sarcastic? I didn't understand the comment about permission. I was just trying to communicate my understanding of the terms.
You said that that which is in the mind enters there through the spirit and by the spirit. You say that all information is catergorized and priotized by the spirit. How does the spirit do this? You say there is thought process, but the thought process is predetermined by the "position" of the spirit. What does this mean? What positions can the spirit have? You also speak about the position of faith being changed. I don't know what you mean by "position." What are the possible positions of faith?
It sounds like you are saying that "heart" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably. Do I understand you correctly?
I think the faith I descrbied is saving faith, because it responds to the Spirit. For example,
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)
If we do not resist the drawing, the Spirit through faith procudes a new life in the soul. Not resisting means we are responding. If we respond, then the Spirit through faith creates a new life in the soul. This is describing saving faith.
To use the verse you cited in Romans, with the heart we believe unto righteousness. We perceive the love of God revealed at the cross, which affects us both on the level of reason and emotions. The belief, in the sense of Rom. 10:10, describes the saving faith which is the affirmative response to the Spirit of the things which the Spirit is revealing to us.
Again, it is not at all my desire to argue about these things. I'm just trying to understand the ideas being presented, and giving feedback to my own way of thinking, to make it easier for you to respond in a way that I may better understand what you're saying.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74987
07/03/06 02:09 PM
07/03/06 02:09 PM
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Mark, isn't the word "mind" used at times with a deeper meaning in mind as well? For example, "Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus."
It seems to me that Scripture uses the word "spirit" in many different ways, depending on the context.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74988
07/03/06 09:38 PM
07/03/06 09:38 PM
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Sorry Tom, all is in good will, no mean intentions.  The comment about going over the same thing was in regards to the point that followed it. “The idea is not that the spirit can exist apart from the mind; but, that there is a difference between the mind and spirit. There is a difference in its governmental positions. Just as what the eyes look upon affects what you see, so also, the spirit affects the perception of the mind.” Seems clear to me, and that it should address your question, but if there is any question left there, certainly go ahead. It seemed like you were repeating the same issue and I was repeating myself. So I suppose what I meant is that if there is a question maybe it needs another angle. Regarding the highly developed theory being constructed without a foundation which can be supported from Scripture; I was continuing on from previous threads in which much of this was presented verse by verse, thought by thought, like in the thread on Romans 7. The setting of the language is scripture language in a reflection of my own Romans ch.5-9 experience, which parallels that of Paul. Quote:
You said that that which is in the mind enters there through the spirit and by the spirit. You say that all information is categorized and prioritized by the spirit. How does the spirit do this?
The spirit does it through the faculty of faith which is part of it.
Before the will is established on the throne, it must determine faith’s position. Faith is the “door” through which “all” must enter in or out. There is nothing that can enter our person without passing through “the door of faith”. All that passes through gets tagged with a “validity factor” issued by faith (this is unbreachable). It is continually monitored; and all or any can be re-validated in one swoop. Once the will has determined the position of faith, it can govern the mind and body only according to faith’s position. The will cannot govern the mind or body outside of faith’s position. It will be impotent, no matter how much “willpower” is exerted. For the will to govern the mind or body differently it must reposition faith to suit. So wherever faith is directed, such becomes the source or otherwise authority of the spirit. Whatever is the source defines the nature of the spirit. This source was God in the beginning.
In simple language; unless you believe, no amount of data will bear any impact on you. The basis of any info in your mind, and its treatment is totally dependent upon its value ascribed when you accepted or rejected it, or modified since. Every person has categorical requirements before data is received, filtered, stamped with any value from infinite negative to infinite positive. If you consider your own thought process you will see this. The basis of this activity is the position of faith.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#74989
07/03/06 10:13 PM
07/03/06 10:13 PM
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Quote:
You say there is thought process, but the thought process is predetermined by the "position" of the spirit. What does this mean? What positions can the spirit have? You also speak about the position of faith being changed. I don't know what you mean by "position." What are the possible positions of faith?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
These are positions; spiritual, carnal. The position of the law is spiritual; the position of man’s spirit is carnal. Whatever the spirit is so is the man. So is the thought process.
A ‘position’ is determined by anything that is ‘trusted’ as valid; faith is reposed in. Fundamentally there are only two positions. One is ‘trusting God’; other one is ‘trusting self’. This second one however takes many forms because of the way sin changes the issue of faith. Sin changed the issue of faith from “who do you believe” to “what do you believe”. This is what transpired at the tree. But ‘what do you believe’ is deceptive because it subverts the question of the source. So that the real issue of faith which could/would change its fundamental position to God, remains hidden.
Most people do not go around talking, "I believe myself"; but they talk about what they believe. Why? Christ never talked about what he believed, but he did tell us who he believed. Why?
To change the position of faith means that the source which is trusted is changed. The word ‘carnal’ tells you what the source is for faith. The word ‘spiritual’ tells that the source for faith is God.
Thus position of faith results in spritual condition/state. The spritual condition/state reveals the position of faith.
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