In Ecclesiastes 12:7 one could argue that the "spirit" is nothing more than the breath of life because technically God doesn't "give" us a character, but in one sense He does because without Him we couldn't cultivate character for the kingdom of God. At any rate, the "spirit" that returns unto God isn't, as I understand it, something else other than character.

"The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved."

She would be listing it here; not restating spirit.

Christ as he grew from infancy to manhood 'waxed strong in spirit'. His character became strong. He became strong. Like Jacob who wrestled with God, he had power with God and with men. Character in this sense is spirit.

I think we struggle for the right words to use, but everyone would agree that when one dies and God resurrects someone, what makes the person what he is not simply the matter or chemicals that makes up his body. There is a personality, or character, or spirit, or whatever you want to call it, which makes someone who they are. The way each person reacts to different situations, what one finds humorous, sad, touching, the choices one would make in different situations, how one relates to God and men, all of these things are contained within the "essence" of the person.

I think Mark was using "character" in this sense, not in the more limited sense of one's disposition to do right or wrong.

JB: She would be listing it here; not restating spirit.

MM: Do mean she meant to say "the spirit, and the character of man both return to God"?

There is an interesting statement in the Ellen White’s writings to the effect that when the wicked are finally destroyed after the millennium in the lake of fire that they continue to suffer for so long as a particle of their body remains unconsumed, a process that will take days from some.

What is interesting about that statement is the fact that in order for that to be true, it would mean that the brain of the person would stop functioning yet the person would continue to consciously suffer. So, on the one hand her statement suggests that the body and the spirit do not separate, but both are consumed together, but on the other it would indicate that the person can have conscious pain even while the brain may not be functioning. I suppose God could arrange things so that the brain miraculously continues to function in the lake of fire and is the last organ to be consumed, but I’m not sure He would do something like that. It would also be inconsistent with the physiology of Ellen White's visions. If He does not keep the brain functioning to the last then we have one example here of consciousness outside of the brain.

Adventism teaches man is a unity and I agree that is the normal condition. But we should recognize that man is a spirit-being. That the Apostle thought it was possible for him to be in heaven outside of the body is fairly clear I think.

Tom has reminded us several times of Ellen White's statement that God only communicates through the brain. I think both can be true. The apostle may have been in heaven in spirit only but the vision was recorded in his memory. This seems to be what happened to Ellen White in vision. Her breathing stopped so no oxygen was nurishing her brain. It seems unlikely that the electro-chemical reactions necessary for normal thought were taking place during her visions because these need the benefit of oxygen to occur. But when she came out of vision and began breathing again, she had a memory of what she had seen. That memory seems to have been miraculously given to her. What she saw 'in spirit' was somehow transferred to her mind's memory.

What was man when he was created? Was he spirit or human?

What is interesting about that statement is the fact that in order for that to be true, it would mean that the brain of the person would stop functioning yet the person would continue to consciously suffer. So, on the one hand her statement suggests that the body and the spirit do not separate, but both are consumed together, but on the other it would indicate that the person can have conscious pain even while the brain may not be functioning. I suppose God could arrange things so that the brain miraculously continues to function in the lake of fire and is the last organ to be consumed, but I’m not sure He would do something like that. It would also be inconsistent with the physiology of Ellen White's visions. If He does not keep the brain functioning to the last then we have one example here of consciousness outside of the brain.

What you're writing here strikes me as very odd. God arranging things to the brain is the last organ to be consumed so the person continues to suffer? Here's the quote:

Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." (EW 294)

It amazes me that anyone would take this literally. Fire preying upon someone? Does fire "prey"? How so? The following quote found by Rosangela explains what the fire is:

“When too late he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides upon him. This is fire unquenchable. Thus the soul and body of every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed.” {18MR 74.1}

Adventism teaches man is a unity and I agree that is the normal condition.

Normal? Adventism teaches this is "normal"?

But we should recognize that man is a spirit-being. That the Apostle thought it was possible for him to be in heaven outside of the body is fairly clear I think.

You're misundrestanding what he said. He's not saying it's possible for him to exist outside of the body. He's saying he didn't know whether he went to heaven in his body, or if it was a vision. Not that he was a disembodied spirit that actually went to heaven.

I thought I already cited this:


Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 12 that he is not sure whether during his supernatural experience he was physically taken to heaven or whether he had a spiritual experience, a vision, during which the body was not as involved as it would have been had he actually been taken to Paradise. (http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-1555/story4.html)

I just quoted a little bit. The article goes into greater detail. Adventists do not believe that men have spirits which can exist apart from the body.

This seems to be what happened to Ellen White in vision. Her breathing stopped so no oxygen was nurishing her brain. It seems unlikely that the electro-chemical reactions necessary for normal thought were taking place during her visions because these need the benefit of oxygen to occur.

This is faulty logic. Moses was on the mount for a month without eating or drinking, sustained miraculously by God, just as Ellen White was, if indeed she was not breathing. Does this mean that Moses wasn't thinking?

But when she came out of vision and began breathing again, she had a memory of what she had seen. That memory seems to have been miraculously given to her. What she saw 'in spirit' was somehow transferred to her mind's memory.

She had a memory of what she had seen because she saw it in vision, which is an act of the mind. There's no reason to think she wouldn't remember her vision.

I am not sure Mark, what the point is about your trying to establish whether the spirit of man can be made to exist apart from the body, or by some other means. I certainly see no reason why the Lord could not give us any type of ‘body’ to suit the purpose. Maybe some people see themselves as ‘body-beings’, and I am not sure that seeing themselves as spirit-beings would help them any.

The only reason that I see this topic meaningful is in the light of sin and salvation; meaning: to understand the working of sin which is spiritual, and how that changes our spirit to enmity with God; and how salvation is to restore our spirit in harmony with God, so that sin would not have dominion over us; and what our place is in that.

Salvation is not a legal game of temporal works or failures. It is the salvation of souls, spirits from destruction to eternal life - meaning much more than existence.