When is God’s Will fulfilled in our lives? I have heard many people say that it was God’s will that they suffer the pain and sorrow in their lives. I cannot agree with this. It does not fit my understanding of God’s character.

Matthew 6:9,10 (the Lord’s Prayer) says

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“Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.�

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This does not say “Thy will be done in heaven as it is on earth� and no one can convince me that the pain and sorrow we suffer here on earth happens in heaven!!!!

Further, Matthew 18:14 says

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“Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.�

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That seems pretty self-explanatory to me. It looks to me as if it is NOT God’s will that any should perish, but that all should inherit eternal life!! See also John 3:15-20.

Furthermore, I must draw your attention to the Garden of Eden. As we are all well aware, (and if you aren’t, I suggest reading the first few chapters of Genesis!) all of Eden was created perfect and in harmony with God, including Adam and Eve. There was no sin, and thus no pain, sorrow or sufferings. Rom:5:12:

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Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

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and Rom:5:14:

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Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

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Finally (for now), I note that Rom:6:23 says

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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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I think that, again, we can all agree that the gift of God is a free gift to all who choose to accept it! I look at Romans 6:16

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Know
ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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I realize that the common thinking is to belief that it is God’s will that these horrible things should happen to us, and I agree that very horrible things do happen to us. I have suffered many things in my own short life, however, for the reasons stated above, I do not believe that
they were a result of God working His will in my life!! I do, however, believe that He can take the horrible things that have happened to me and cause them to do a good work in my life and in the lives of those around me. That my experiences make me a stronger Christian and give me a firmer faith. That is a result of His promise in Romans 8:26-28

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26: Likewise the Spirit
also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

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Finally, I must close with these verses Romans 8:31-40

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31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34: Who is he that
condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36: As it is written, For thy sake

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(not for His will!!!)

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we are killed all the day
long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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I give great praise that I serve a God who does not will that I should suffer!! I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this topic!

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

[This message has been edited by Mrs Sarah Moss (edited February 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mrs Sarah Moss (edited February 26, 2001).]

Dear Sarah,

Thanx for asking this question, or making your belief known. I too have wrestled with this issue - the sovereignty of God. You stated that no one could convince you that the pain and suffering we experience here is experienced by beings in heaven. Would you include the suffering all heaven experienced when Jesus died on the Cross?

If you're willing to concede that heaven suffered when Jesus died on the Cross would you also be willing to admit that heaven still suffers when Jesus' loved ones on earth experience pain and suffering? "Whatever happens to you happens to me." Mat 25:40.

Someone might say that kind of pain and suffering is nothing compared to the physical kind we have to endure here on earth. And yet just the opposite was true for Jesus. The emotional pain and agony He suffered was far greater than the physical.

As a father I can testify that what our heavenly Father suffered in heaven while Jesus was dying on the Cross must have been more painful than any physical suffering anyone on earth has ever had to endure.

As to whether or not pain and suffering in this lifetime is God's will can be best ascertained in light of the Cross. Was it God's will that Jesus suffer and die? We are quick to answer - Yes!

Was it God's will that providing a living be painful and difficult after He cursed the earth? Most certainly. So, what's my point? God uses test, trial and temptation to teach us lessons necessary to grow and develop as Christians.

God says something in Isaiah that sounds very weird at first. But once understood in the proper context it makes perfect sense. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isa 45:7.

What this means to me is that God is in control - not sin, self or Satan, not death, disease or disaster. There is nothing incidental or accidental about the good, the bad and the ugly things that befall us in this lifetime. Since God can start or stop anything - without violating choice - then He is responsible for everything that happens. We manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.

And that's good news. Here's why. If fate or Satan were responsible for managing the consequences then we have everything to fear, because we cannot trust fate or Satan to handle things safely or to guarantee the best possible results. They are incapable of knowing the end from the beginning therefore they cannot orchestrate matters perfectly like God can and does.

Jesus and Job are super good examples of just how in control God really is, and how subservient Satan is to the sovereignty of God. The flood and the fires of Sodom are more good examples. And prophecy is evidense that God is in control. History is not a mere cause and consequence twist of fate or unguided affairs and events. The story of Cyrus in Dan 10 is an example of just how involved God is manipulating people, places and things - without violating choise - so that history plays out the way God wants it to. History is not left to chance or fate.

The truth about the sovereignty of God in light of history, suffering and pain is the truth that sets us free. My daughter died in a tragic accident at home falling out of her closet at the tender age of 10. I miss her terribly and I often succomb to periods of deep weeping and great sorrow even 6 years later (just like now).

Trying to understand why she died so young is something that has eluded me all these years. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing that God is control, that He allowed my poor precious little sweetheart, my one and only baby girl, who loved me with all her tiny big heart (oh God, I miss her) - I just celebrated her birthday a few weeks ago - the only thing that sustains my grief beaten soul is knowing that when I get to heaven Jesus is going to explain to Angel and me why it was best for her to rest at that point in her life, and knowing now that His explanation then will make perfect sense to me is what provides me peace with my pain.

But I don't think that I could handle it if I thought trajedy was some kind of monster out of control on the rampage stealing away all those little girls and boys while God stands by helplessly silent and still. Believing as I do that death, disaster and disease are things under the loving control of God for some mysterious higher good gives me hope and empowers me to praise God not only "in" but also "for" all things. See Eph 5:20 and 1 Thes 5:18 (KJV).

Bad things do and will continue to happen. It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not. See 1 Cor 10:13. But as Christians we are privileged with praise and thanksgiving during the good times and during the bad times because our God is an awesome God, He reigns from heaven above with wisdom, power and love. Thank you Jesus. Even so, Come Lord Jesus.

Sincerely,

Mike

First of all, I want to give you my condolences. I sympathize with you over your loss and I know how the loss of someone that close to you can leave an empty void in your life, never to be filled. I lost my brother 3 1/2 years ago, and I know that I have no idea of the depth of pain it is to lose your own child, but let me say that I understand your pain.

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
...Would you include the suffering all heaven experienced when Jesus died on the Cross?

If you're willing to concede that heaven suffered when Jesus died on the Cross would you also be willing to admit that heaven still suffers when Jesus' loved ones on earth experience pain and suffering? "Whatever happens to you happens to me." Mat 25:40.

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Definitely Mike, it's just that this isn't the kind of suffering I was referring to. I suffer along with my friends and relatives when they suffer pain for whatever reason. I also know that kind of suffering, however, I was referring to the suffering caused by direct sin and it's consequences. I frequently take comfort knowing that Hebrews 2:18

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... He himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

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and Hebrews 4:15-16

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For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16: Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

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. However, I still do not believe that it is God's will that we suffer because of these things - it is just a consequence of the decisions we make and was not at all a part of God's original plan.

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Mike Lowe also said:

As to whether or not pain and suffering in this lifetime is God's will can be best ascertained in light of the Cross. Was it God's will that Jesus suffer and die? We are quick to answer - Yes!

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Again Mike, I have to agree with you, sort of. It was not God's ultimate will that Christ should die such a painful and humiliating death, it was, however, necessary in the great plan of salvation for Him to do so.

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Mike further said:

So, what's my point? God uses test, trial and temptation to teach us lessons necessary to grow and develop as Christians.

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Amen!! But just becauses He uses these things does not make them necessarily His will. I repeat Rom:8:28.

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Mike Lowe:

What this means to me is that God is in control - not sin, self or Satan, not death, disease or disaster. There is nothing incidental or accidental about the good, the bad and the ugly things that befall us in this lifetime. Since God can start or stop anything - without violating choice - then He is responsible for everything that happens. We manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.

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Here, I agree wholehearted. God is always in control - which is why (to my mind) He can take the bad and turn it into good.

I agree with you that bad things will continue to happen, and that God will continue to allow them to happen to us. I just truly have difficulty reconciling in my mind that they are His will. He allows us to suffer as a result of the consequences of sin because He is an all just God and it would be unfair if He protected us from all evil just because we are His. We must suffer the consequences of the sinful natures we are born into.

For me, I believe that God can take the pain I suffered and continue to suffer from my brother's death and use it to help others through me. I believe that my experiences have made me a stronger person in Christ and give me a base on which I can help other people. That doesn't make those experiences God's will, just God's allowance and He can use them for good - regardless of what they might be.

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

[This message has been edited by Mrs Sarah Moss (edited February 26, 2001).]

Hello Everyone,

Sarah, thank you for sharing your kind condolences. And I too extend the same as you daily deal with the loss of your brother.

You mentioned that it is not God's original plan or will for sin and suffering to exist on earth. And I agree with you in principle. However, let me share a few thoughts that might open other doors for discussion.

Since God knows the end from the beginning we can definitely conclude that nothing takes Him by surprise. Which means that the fall of Lucifer and Adam did not come as a surprise to God. And yet God created them anyhow knowing that sin and suffering would reign for a time. Plus that it would cost the life and death of Jesus.

So, a fair question to ask in light of this information is - Since God was willing to go through with the creation of Lucifer and Adam wasn't it also His will to accept the consequences too? That's not to say that He created them so that they could introduce sin and suffering, but at the same time it does suggest that God was willing go through with it in spite of it.

Now, taking this line of logic a little further, since the fall of Lucifer and Adam was inevitable (because God foresaw it, not that He fore ordained it) the option was not to go through with it. If God had refused to create man and angels then Jesus would not have had to live and die on earth as a man. And sin and suffering would be non-existent.

But the fact God went ahead and created Lucifer and Adam suggests that He was willing to accept the existence of sin and suffering and the death of Jesus. This isn't to say that it's God will, but in what is it different? He was willing to accept it as an inevitable part of the plan - the plan being to create Lucifer and Adam in spite of the fact they would introduce sin and suffering. God did not a have a choice. Either He does or does not create circumstances that would introduce sin and suffering.

So, was sin and suffering a part of God's original plan? Apparently He didn't have an option. That was the only plan other than not to create anything at all in the first place. And that seems to have been an option God was unwilling to entertain. The joy of eternity seems to have out weighed the burden of sin and suffering for 6000 years.

At any rate, what do yuo think about these thoughts?

Mike

I like the way you put that! I agree with your conclusions. Perhaps sin needed to be brought into existence to show what the other side of God's rule was like. To allow all to see the comparison of good and evil. Are not reassured that once Christ comes the second time, there will be no more sin? (I'm at work and therefore am unable to check my sources - I'll look it up once I get home!)

Which helps me understand the existence of sin, but still leaves me hanging about it being God's will. I was thinking about it earlier, and wondered. I am not a parent, but I know that many times my mother tried to protect me from making mistakes, only, I had to make those mistakes to actually learn the lesson she was trying to keep me from learning. There are times when the only way for us to learn seems to be through trial and error - even though it was not my mother's will that I learn the hard way, she would have much preferred (or willed) that I accept her words and learn by hearing - not by doing. Perhaps so with God. He does not "will" that we should hurt, but rather that we listen to His Voice and learn from His Words, not because we've figured it out the hard way and suffered much pain along the way. Doesn't, of course, explain the pain and suffering that comes to us because of others actions and mistakes, but perhaps comes close to what I am thinking.

Thank you so much for your (continued) input Mike. It's great to be able to have a place to put beliefs and ideas into words and study the scriptures to see how they add up. Reminds me how important it is HOW we say what we are thinking and believing!

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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

In relation to this topic, I think of the case of my son-in-law Randy. Randy was totally committed to God at the time that he married my daughter. But during the course of time, he began to slip back some, gradually drifting away from God. They had a fire in their house, and when they began replacing things with insurance money, he began to get a bit greedy. With replacement cost of contents, you just buy another refrigerator or whatever it is, and they pay the entire cost, rather than the value of the destroyed merchandise. So he was getting a bit carried away with being able to buy better things than they'd had before.

Sixteen months after the first fire, their house was burned again. They knew that the boy next door had done it the first time, though there was no evidence that would allow the police to do anything about it, and that he had vandalized Randy's car a month before the second fire, though again there was no proof (no fingerprints, though the boy did key his initial into the car in several places). But while my daughter and son-in-law suspected the boy in the second fire, the police were suspecting Randy, partly because of the way he had been getting a bit too demanding with the insurance company not so long before this.

When the police didn't investigate the boy, Randy filed a false police report for a break-in that never occurred, thinking to give the police some incentive to investigate, but his lies came crashing down upon him and after he attempted suicide by setting himself on fire in the burned house, he was arrested. He spent over 5 months in jail, before he plea-bargained his way out. During that time, he saw the error of his ways and began to return to God and depend on Him again.

Now, I don't believe that it was God's original will to allow Randy & Bethany to go through all they did last year, but I do believe that He allowed it, as the most effective way to turn Randy around and get him back on track. Our salvation is what matters most to God, and whatever it takes to achieve that goal, God is willing to allow us to go through. If we won't do things His way from the first, sometimes He has to allow some pretty serious things to happen to save us from ourselves. And I will say, that if something like that is what it takes to save me, then I'd prefer God let it happen than to just let me go on in my own sinful way and be lost.

Not every instance of suffering and trouble that we or those we care about will endure are necessarily serving a purpose of inspiring a total turn-around, yet all such trials that we do go through help us to draw near to God and learn to trust Him and put matters into His hands, as we experience His intervention. Sometimes we don't see the good for a very long time, and in some cases we'll never see it in this lifetime. Yet I trust that God has everything under control, and He is not allowing anything to happen to any of His faithful ones that He is not working for our good.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Dear Cathy and Sarah,

Amen. Thank you for those beautiful posts. Indeed, God is in control. Which is evident from the fact that He went ahead and created angels and mankind in spite of the sin and suffering it costed.

Again, if sin and suffering is the only way God is able to reach someone who is slipping down the wrong path then wouldn't that be His will? I know it sounds strange, but so is the whole great controversy, eh?

And to suggest God would rather work it out some other way in saying that there is another way, but apparently that isn't true. Since the consequences of sin and suffering are inevitable, whether we ourselves sin or not, it is clear then that God has no other choice. He must work with things the way they are. And these things exist because He chose to create in spite of the inescapable consequences. But God is love, and so He couldn't help Himself - He had to create.

Yes, it's true. God would rather there be no sin and suffering. But that option wasn't available. So what consolation is it? Was sin and suffering necessary? No way. Jesus didn't have to sin to know how bad it is. And neither do we.

Probably the best thing we can conclude on this subject is what Ellen wrote about it in the GC - "Sin is an intruder, for whose presense no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin." page 493.

Yes, God uses sin and suffering to His advantage. He doesn't make us sin, but He does manipulate the consequences to His advantage. If we were allowed to experience the true force of sin and guilt the moment we fall into sin we would die "in the day that thou eatest thereof." The human race would not have survived past the gates of Eden. But the blood of Jesus protects us for now from faling victim to the true force of sin and guilt. If we choose to forfeit salvation then we shall know what is the true force of sin and guilt in the lake of fire. God forbid that we should reject Jesus.

Mike

I think there is a big difference between something being God's will and plan, and something that God simply allows.

Was it God's will that Lucifer sins?
or
Was did God simply allow it on account of free will?

Was it God's will that Eve and Adam sin?
or
Did God allow it on account of the free will He gave to both Adam and Eve?

What do you think?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Hello,

Good questions, Daryl. Thanx. But what I was sharing has to do with decisions God made even before He created Lucifer or Adam and Eve. But to answer your questions - God did not create angels and humans so that they could introduce sin and suffering to the universe.

But by creating them knowing ahead of time that they would use their freedom of choice to sin He created the circumstances that made sin and suffering possible and a reality. No, He didn't make them sin, but He made those beings who He knew would sin. If He hadn't made them in the first place sin and suffering would have never reared its ugly head.

This also true of the plan of salvation. Adam and Eve should have died the very day they ate the forbiden fruit. But Jesus stepped in and inaugurated the plan which bought mankind a second chance at eternal life. Although a wonderful thing, it is also indirectly responsible for all the sin and suffering that has plagued God and mankind ever since. Again, not that God makes people sin, but that His allowing them to live gives rise to sin and suffering, which would not exist if they were not living.

But we cannot let the issues cloud the beauty of the great controversy. It's not a bad thing that God is allowing - first by creating beings He knew would sin and by giving mankind a second chance as well, which also multiplied sin and suffering a million million times over above and beyond what Adam and Eve did themselves.

Do you see my point? I'm not saying God created sin or sinners. But none of it would have happened had He not created beings He knew would sin and suffer. Is sin and sufering God's will? No. But the point is mute in light of the fact He didn't have any other choice. It was either not create them and not have to deal with sin or go ahead and create them and then deal with sin and suffering. Obviously He chose the latter. And in spite of all the sin and suffering I have had to deal with myself I am still glad He went through with it because in the end we will all exclaim - Heaven is cheap enough!

Mike

I give great praise that I serve a God who does not will that I should suffer!! I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this topic!
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Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

Whose will is that for Christ to suffer and die on the cross?

Whose will is that for Peter to suffer and die on the cross with his head down?

God through His indwelling Spirit is doing the “willing and the doing� through a believer’s life who abide “in Christ� by faith. The fruit of the Spirit is then: “ love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such there is no law� (Galatians 5:22,23).

I see longsuffering and faith included as fruit of the Spirit. Then of course there must be something happen to the believer to test this fruit. This could be from Satan and the world that hates Christ believers and God let it happen, because He wants the believer to suffer, so that He can works more fruit of faith and longsuffering through this believer’s life. So that this believer might be a true witness to the world how God has saved him.

In His love

James S.

Phil.1:12 "But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;" (KJV)

Phil.1:12 "Now it is my purpose to make clear to you, brothers, that the cause of the good news has been helped by my experiences;" (BBE)

Hello Sarah

I noticed that a lot of people in replying to this thread have recounted various trials/tragedies, and then tried to determine whether or not these experiences were God's will or not.

Do you think the above two verses quoted may have something to offer, in this line?

I speak as one who was in a hospital bed for over a year with severe burns; and I know that "the furtherance of the Gospel," did indeed take place as a result. I never would have met Jesus if I didn't almost fry to death! I'll have to post a testimony about that when I get time.

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"The desert will rejoice and bloom as the rose...it shall bloom abundantly!"
(Isa.35:1-2)

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler