Gary K wrote.

Please show some scriptural evidence that sinning does not come between man and God.

Unquote.

How about this:

"....their sins and transgressions I will remember no more."

In His love

James S

James, the law of God is "holy, and just, and good" (Rom 7:12) and as such it is an important standard to live by. But we cannot live up to this standard by focusing on the law instead of focusing on Jesus. The only way we can walk in harmony with the principles of the law is to make Jesus first, and last, and best in our heart, mind and soul.

If there were no clear cut prohibitions, like the ones contained in the law, then God has no leg to stand on in judgment. He would have nothing to back up His rewards - eternal life or death. No one could be denied eternal life if it could not be shown they were unworthy.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Is that how you see it?

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike.

I don’t think that love as fruit of the Spirit leads to obedience, obedience to what? Because obedience need a law as a pattern or a model or a standard for living, but the Spirit doesn’t need anything as a model or a pattern to live for, He does as He pleases! And if you are led by the Spirt He will does as He pleases, but if you do as you pleases, that means you are living by the flesh.

Fruit of the Spirit is love that seeks no self, it is love to your fellowman, it is not obedience to any law but just a character of the heart to love. When you have this character you will do no harm to your fellow man (Romans 13:10) and you will have no covetous desire against your fellow man, because all covetous desires are the desire of the flesh that was based on self love which is against the love of God that seeks no self.

Love is the fulfillment of the law, when you have love, you don’t need the law because your deeds is in harmony with principle of the law.

Perfect obedience was achieve through keeping the law, but having love that fulfills the demand of the law was achieve through a life led by the Spirit. Obedience need a law as pattern or a model for living but doesn’t need faith (Galatians 3:12), on the contrary, living by the Spirit needs faith but doesn’t need the law (Galatians 5:18).

The desire of the flesh is against the desire of the Spirit, they are against each other (Galatians 5:17); the desire of the flesh is enmity against God, it is not subject to the law of God (Romans 8:7).

The Spirit will help a believer and empower him to deny the flesh, but the Spirit can not help and give power to those who wants to keep and obey the law. Why? Because the desire to keep and obey the law is the desire of the flesh, it is based on the principle of self that the Spirit is against it.

The Spirit doesn’t need any law to make a believer live righteously, what He did is making a change of heart by imparting the love of Christ, changing our nature from self love to love for our fellow man.

If you want to live according to the Spirit, you must deny your self, you do not need any law to keep and obey, because you trust God and have faith in Him, that He will lead you to all righteousness and holy living, just as He said: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put in you………And I will put My Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments, and do them” – Ezekiel 36:26,27.
“….I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts” – Jeremiah 31:33.
“For it is God which worketh in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure” – Philippians 2:13.

It is God who lead your life, it is God who work in you “to will and to do”, it is God who made you have the principle of the law “love that seeks no self” in your heart. You need nothing of any law, to do it, to keep it and to obey it.

Thus, the teaching that the Spirit empower us to keep the law is not what the Gospel of Christ told us. This is the same as saying “the Spirit gives power to our desires of the flesh”. And that is impossible, because the Spirit is against the desires of the flesh.

The Spirit desire is against the flesh desire and since the flesh desire is not subject to the law of God, then by denying the flesh desires I will be in harmony with the law. But since denying the flesh is fruit of the Spirit because love (agape) that is fruit of the Spirit will set us free from SIN of self-love, root from all selfish or flesh desires; so, I will be in harmony with the law not because I obey the law and keep it, but because I deny the flesh desire through a life by the Spirit that sets me free from love for self, so that I can love my fellow man.

I hope you might understand this and grasp the meaning of living by faith, which is a life without any law to obey but just a complete trust in God who will lead my life to all righteousness and holy life and made me love my fellow man.

In His love

James S.

James wrote:

"Love is the fulfillment of the law, when you have love, you don’t need the law because your deeds is in harmony with principle of the law."

This logic is foreign to me. It doesn't make sense. If love and law are synonymous - how can one cancel out the other, or make the other unnecessary? They co-exist. To say we don't need the law, since love fulfills the law, is like the man who says Jesus destroyed the law because He fulfilled it. It's crazy talk.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Love and law are inseparable. But again, we do not focus on the law in order to obey it's principles. Instead, we focus on Jesus and He in turn empowers us to fulfill the spirit and letter of the law.

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2, 3
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mike.

Matthew 5:17,18 said that until Christ fulfilled the demands of the law, not one jot or title will disappear from the law even it must wait until heaven and earth disappeared. But, thanks God, 2000 years ago Christ has fulfilled the law by His death on the cross.

The other verses are a question of WHO made you keep the law? The Spirit or you your self.

If it is you, then only the letter of the law that you obey (legalistic righteousness) but failed to fulfill the intent of the law, because by keeping the law, you are under dominion of SIN, SIN is your master (Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18), and the result is just deeds of the flesh. The law judges you and found you guilty and condemns you with death sentence.

“The law kills, keeping it will only lead to condemnation and death” (2 Corinthians 3:6-9), keeping it would only reveal our SIN (Romans 3:19; 7:7).

But if it is the Spirit that made you has a life in harmony with the law (the letter and the principle) according to Romans 8:4 and Galatians 5:22,23, then you do nothing and need nothing of the law.

In His love

James S.

James, please see my comments regarding this issue on the Bible Study thread entitled - "My Grace Is Sufficient For You."