James, what you have presented is not Paul's argument, but the reverse. Paul is not arguing that there was a time when the law did not exist. As Mike pointed out, it is written that Abraham obeyed God, and kept His commandments. Paul is speaking of the time the law was formerly given, when it was spoken by Him at Sinai, but if what you are suggesting were true, then God would not be just, but unjust, because how could God execute people after the fact for a law He gave *after* they had committed whatever crimes they were supposedly guilty of? How does this make any sense?

If I cross an intersection in my car, where there isn't any stop sign, can a cop write me a ticked for running a stop sign which is put in some years after I've moved to another state?

When God tells us to "do it and live!" it is as a loving Father who has given us wise counsel. He is telling us the principles which lead to life, happiness and peace. We see the fruit of these principles in the life of Christ, who was the Law personfied. We see the perfect picture of love, which is what God's character looks like. It is not God saying, "Do it, or else!"

Rules are arbitrary if there is no inherent reason for their existence. If you think the Ten Commandments were given as a practical expression of God's love, then we are in agreement.

The principles of God's government can be summed in a single word: love. In two "words" they would be, love for God, and love for others. In ten, they would be the ten commandments.

These principles were explained to man so that he could know happiness, life and peace. The punishment for breaking these principles is suffering, misery and death.

There is nothing arbitrary involved here. The arbitrariness comes not from using the word "rule" or not, but from the idea that the breaking of the law is punished by some artificial, or imposed, means, rather than as the outworking of principles that are out of harmony with God's character.

Waggoner expresses this point well:

All who sin are treasuring up for themselves wrath. It should be noted that in the judgement God is clear. Men receive only what they have worked for. God is not arbitrary. He has not fixed arbitrary decrees, and declared that whoever violates them shall be visited with vengeance. The punishment that will come upon the wicked is the necessary result of their own choice. God is the only source of life.

His life is peace. Now when men reject him, the only alternative for them is wrath and death. "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; they would none of my counsel; they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them." Prov. 1:29-32. Trouble and death are bound up in sin; they are what men choose when they refuse the Lord. (Waggoner on Romans, chapter 2)

This is the point I was wishing to make. If you agree with what Waggoner said here, then we are in agreement.

So it was not a sin for Cain to kill Able since there was no law against it?

Redfog

According to Paul, even it was a sin (for sin was in the world since Adam's fall) but because there was no law yet (was just given to Moses at Sinai hundreds of years later)it should not be taken into account and would never be if the law never come.

I my self will say yes, if there is no law (Decalogue) you may kill, steal, commit adultery, etc.

In His love

james S

Quote.
…., but if what you are suggesting were true, then God would not be just, but unjust, because how could God execute people after the fact for a law He gave *after* they had committed whatever crimes they were supposedly guilty of? How does this make any sense?

If I cross an intersection in my car, where there isn't any stop sign, can a cop write me a ticked for running a stop sign which is put in some years after I've moved to another state?
Unquote.

What is the punishment of Adam when he sinned in Eden?
What is the punishment for those who sins at the time since Adam’s fall till Moses?
What is the punishment for those who sins at the time of Moses till the cross of Christ?
What is the punishment for those who sins at the time of Christ till the end of the world?

They all have one single punishment: Death, same as Adam who must die for his single transgression. But why should we die, even we did not sin after the similitude of Adam’s transgression? Because the wages of sin is death; a single and universal punishment for transgressors of the law of God.

So, it doesn’t matter God presented his Decalogue right away after Adam’s fall or 1,000 years later or 2,000 years later, it would just justify him for the execution of death against sinners to abolish sin forever from his universe at the end of time.

Remember, when there is no law, there is no transgression and when there is no law, sin is not taken into account, IOW, sin is not imputed, then death should not happened to men, but nevertheless they die still. Whether this is the 1st death or eternal death, it doesn’t matter. Because if the law is not given, Christ wouldn’t come and we remain in our grave forever.

So, to answer these questions, God, if he doesn’t want to be seen as a Dictator and a Tyrant MUST ISSUE his own law, to justify his judgment. Orally spoken laws and commandments could not be taken into judgment, that is the point.

Therefore we see that Christ resurrection was a proof that God is just, and his law is just. Christ is the only “man” in earth history that was justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law and God rewards him with life. “Do it and live” comes true; God is not a liar.

On the other hand, all men came under condemnation for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, the law could justify no one; the result: all must die legally.

“All” here of course refers to all men from all times who was created by the Law Giver.

In his love

James S.

I have an interesting sermon about this topic. If anyone is interested, let me know; I can pass on a transcript or an mp3 file. If length is not a problem, I could also post it to be read.

It is about why God gave laws and the errors many Christians make about God's Law. It even uses the heading text of this forum.